cutting springs?
01-10-08, 11:41 PM
#26
I wish I was driving!
I like how you are using math to back up your story.
I don't disagree, but there is more to handling than spring rate. Lowering the car is actually raising the wheels into the wheel wells, which changes the suspension geometry, increasing the camber. While a small amount of positive camber is good, too much will result in odd tire wear and decreased performance.
Also don't forget that the springs should be held captive by the shocks (not allowed to extend beyond where they are still under compression). If they are shortened, the spring could possibly leave the seat on a large bump.
Plus, just about every set of lowering springs I have ever seen installed on a 20 year old FC has actualy raised the ride height over the sagged stock springs.
Finally, I ask, why change the spring rate without changing the shocks? I will avoid equations, but if you change the spring constant without changing the dampening constant (shocks) the formerly critically damped system will become underdamped, canceling any spring rate benefits with traction breaking oscillations from tire load changes such as turns.
Most stock FCs on the road are far more in need of shocks than they are of cut springs, if you only care about handling performance, I will advocate the installation of shocks, rather than the cutting of springs.
If you are interested in lowering the car because you like the way it looks or you like dragging in every other driveway entrance you ever use, you should definately cut the springs, rather than buying lowering springs or coilovers. THis should help to keep the cost of these upgrades down in my price range.
I am not trying to point fingers or make fun, I am only stating my opinion and what my experience has shown me.
I don't disagree, but there is more to handling than spring rate. Lowering the car is actually raising the wheels into the wheel wells, which changes the suspension geometry, increasing the camber. While a small amount of positive camber is good, too much will result in odd tire wear and decreased performance.
Also don't forget that the springs should be held captive by the shocks (not allowed to extend beyond where they are still under compression). If they are shortened, the spring could possibly leave the seat on a large bump.
Plus, just about every set of lowering springs I have ever seen installed on a 20 year old FC has actualy raised the ride height over the sagged stock springs.
Finally, I ask, why change the spring rate without changing the shocks? I will avoid equations, but if you change the spring constant without changing the dampening constant (shocks) the formerly critically damped system will become underdamped, canceling any spring rate benefits with traction breaking oscillations from tire load changes such as turns.
Most stock FCs on the road are far more in need of shocks than they are of cut springs, if you only care about handling performance, I will advocate the installation of shocks, rather than the cutting of springs.
If you are interested in lowering the car because you like the way it looks or you like dragging in every other driveway entrance you ever use, you should definately cut the springs, rather than buying lowering springs or coilovers. THis should help to keep the cost of these upgrades down in my price range.
I am not trying to point fingers or make fun, I am only stating my opinion and what my experience has shown me.
Everyone on here is babbling on about lowering springs, and how cutting the springs will make your ride bouncy. Cutting your springs and getting lowering springs both increase spring rate (most lowering springs are higher rate, anyway), so without touching your shocks, there's little difference between the two.
Might want to rethink the positive camber being good comment, tho, unless you're a drifter.
Lowering the car will tend to make the car gain negative camber, not positive. Too much negative camber can reduce lateral grip and increase tire wear.
01-11-08, 12:43 AM
#27
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#2 while you cut the spring like an idiot. the torch will heat up the metal and the recoil and the strenth of the metal will change and get brittle.
#3 it wont last...
...unless your mexican plz for the love of god dont do it!!!
Also don't forget that the springs should be held captive by the shocks (not allowed to extend beyond where they are still under compression). If they are shortened, the spring could possibly leave the seat on a large bump.
Finally, I ask, why change the spring rate without changing the shocks? I will avoid equations, but if you change the spring constant without changing the dampening constant (shocks) the formerly critically damped system will become underdamped, canceling any spring rate benefits with traction breaking oscillations from tire load changes such as turns.
Most of the comments above are clearly from people who don't know enough about the topic and have no real experience, or have had a bad experience because they or someone else cut too much from the springs. If you'd seen or driven my old car you'd never have guessed the springs were cut, because it didn't have any of the horror-story problems claimed above.
01-11-08, 01:08 AM
#28
i stated earlier that I cut my springs my self.
Was it a little ghetto, yes. Did it make the ride a little bouncier, yes. Was it terrible, No.
I later replaced them with some decent lowering springs and gas shocks.
The main reason I replaced them was because I didn't really understand what I did by cutting the springs, and I didn't want to worry about it down the road.
I only cut about 1.25 inches (cant remember exactly, 7 years ago) and we measured as accurately as I could.
The reason I am against advising anyone to do this them-self is, if you have to ask a forum full of strangers, you probably shouldn't do it.
I did it before i really even knew much about the internet, and we had a pretty large crew. Someone with 'low-rider' experience convinced me that it was okay, but it always bothered my that I cut them. They were made a certain way for a reason. If want a lower ride, than you should get springs that are made specifically to do just that.
I gotta say that there is a LOT of BS going on in this 2nd gen section lately and it SUCKS. It's almost painful to browse here anymore. Many of these threads go nowhere and you;ll be lucky if the OP ever reaches a conclusion or posts any findings. It's pretty pathetic. This site is here to help people learn and advance, but more and more there are mindless posts from people who don't think before they post. If that's your thing, GO TO THE ******* LOUNGE
Was it a little ghetto, yes. Did it make the ride a little bouncier, yes. Was it terrible, No.
I later replaced them with some decent lowering springs and gas shocks.
The main reason I replaced them was because I didn't really understand what I did by cutting the springs, and I didn't want to worry about it down the road.
I only cut about 1.25 inches (cant remember exactly, 7 years ago) and we measured as accurately as I could.
The reason I am against advising anyone to do this them-self is, if you have to ask a forum full of strangers, you probably shouldn't do it.
I did it before i really even knew much about the internet, and we had a pretty large crew. Someone with 'low-rider' experience convinced me that it was okay, but it always bothered my that I cut them. They were made a certain way for a reason. If want a lower ride, than you should get springs that are made specifically to do just that.
I gotta say that there is a LOT of BS going on in this 2nd gen section lately and it SUCKS. It's almost painful to browse here anymore. Many of these threads go nowhere and you;ll be lucky if the OP ever reaches a conclusion or posts any findings. It's pretty pathetic. This site is here to help people learn and advance, but more and more there are mindless posts from people who don't think before they post. If that's your thing, GO TO THE ******* LOUNGE
01-11-08, 02:35 AM
#30
scathcart: your equation is 100% unnecessary. Here's the real equation:
k ~ 1 / L
Spring rate is inversely proportional to length. We are not comparing springs with different thicknesses, different number of coils, etc. We are just shortening it. This one doesn't make you sound as smart, but it's a heck of a lot more useful.
Anyhoo the problem is from left/right imbalance, not just b/c they're stiffer. Aftermarket springs always use equal rates on the left and right. They use different rates front/back. That's besides other potential problems mentioned. Can't let it get too hot when cutting either, but we'll assume this isn't a major issue. Yeah cutting can be done right and it's not terribly complicated but often it is done wrong. I'm saying don't experiment unless you know what you're doing.
Back to the question
1. Yes, but don't just go in there with a torch/etc. Pay someone or learn how to do it properly or you could screw them up.
2. Don't lower the car more than 2" without buying ($$$) some way to adjust the camber, or you'll screw up the camber.
3. Cutting will make the springs stiffer (so will buying stiffer springs). Getting stiffer springs without replacing old worn out shocks will make the car bounce. So don't do it if your shocks are old (I'm betting they are). Shocks are much more expensive than springs anyway, so if you're buying shocks why not just buy used springs?
k ~ 1 / L
Spring rate is inversely proportional to length. We are not comparing springs with different thicknesses, different number of coils, etc. We are just shortening it. This one doesn't make you sound as smart, but it's a heck of a lot more useful.
Anyhoo the problem is from left/right imbalance, not just b/c they're stiffer. Aftermarket springs always use equal rates on the left and right. They use different rates front/back. That's besides other potential problems mentioned. Can't let it get too hot when cutting either, but we'll assume this isn't a major issue. Yeah cutting can be done right and it's not terribly complicated but often it is done wrong. I'm saying don't experiment unless you know what you're doing.
Back to the question
2. Don't lower the car more than 2" without buying ($$$) some way to adjust the camber, or you'll screw up the camber.
3. Cutting will make the springs stiffer (so will buying stiffer springs). Getting stiffer springs without replacing old worn out shocks will make the car bounce. So don't do it if your shocks are old (I'm betting they are). Shocks are much more expensive than springs anyway, so if you're buying shocks why not just buy used springs?
01-11-08, 02:54 AM
#31
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As others have said, I wouldn't bother cutting your springs, just get some Eibachs or Racing Beats. I'm VERY pleased with my Eibach springs. I bought them used and they still rock my world. Very nice ride. Stiff. But that's how a sports car should be.
If you have the money to invest, go with coilovers.
Cheers,
Cody
If you have the money to invest, go with coilovers.
Cheers,
Cody
01-11-08, 08:17 PM
#33
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cutting springs is the worst thing you could do, springs were designed to work as a unit and when you cut them you compromise the whole unit. im not gonna say who i thought would never suggest that it is ok to cut springs, but im very supprized that some people that seem to have some know how about cars actually think it is a good idea.
and no im not racist, i thought it would be funny to throw tha in there but i guess not. when people are sensitive.
just use common sence. cutting springs = getto
and no im not racist, i thought it would be funny to throw tha in there but i guess not. when people are sensitive.
just use common sence. cutting springs = getto
01-11-08, 09:25 PM
#35
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Do you really think you couldn't do anything worse?
im not gonna say who i thought would never suggest that it is ok to cut springs, but im very supprized that some people that seem to have some know how about cars actually think it is a good idea.
and no im not racist, i thought it would be funny to throw tha in there but i guess not. when people are sensitive.
Why do people suggest coilovers in a thread about cutting springs?
If he could afford them, do you think this thread would even exist?
01-11-08, 09:59 PM
#36
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well i read your statment and yes you did say that you dont condone it. my bad!!!
dont want to argue with you over it. but bashing my charicter and my knowlage is not cool. i have 10 years experience woring on cars, and have my 3 year apprenticeship im mechanics. and know enough to knw that cutting springs isnt a good idea in any case.
if the question is CAN it be done, then yes it can.
i made a bad joke about mexicans. which doesnt make me racist
dont want to argue with you over it. but bashing my charicter and my knowlage is not cool. i have 10 years experience woring on cars, and have my 3 year apprenticeship im mechanics. and know enough to knw that cutting springs isnt a good idea in any case.
if the question is CAN it be done, then yes it can.
i made a bad joke about mexicans. which doesnt make me racist
01-11-08, 10:32 PM
#37
ibrakestuff needs to stop posting in this thread...
The OP's question is aimed at people with experiance with this subject. Do you have experience cutting springs?? NO! So I just suggest you stop posting here.
If everyone had an extra $1000 laying around to buy coilovers... why would they be asking about cutting springs??... because they can't afford it, that's why. When you do it right it feels ok. It's not as good as coilovers, it's not as comfortable as lowering springs... BUT if you have the tools to cut (rotary dremel disc tool etc), heavy weight zip ties to secure the front springs, then it should be fine.
And unless your playing "smokey and the bandit" and ramping over rivers and crap you shouldn't worry about unseating springs from bumps...
The OP's question is aimed at people with experiance with this subject. Do you have experience cutting springs?? NO! So I just suggest you stop posting here.
If everyone had an extra $1000 laying around to buy coilovers... why would they be asking about cutting springs??... because they can't afford it, that's why. When you do it right it feels ok. It's not as good as coilovers, it's not as comfortable as lowering springs... BUT if you have the tools to cut (rotary dremel disc tool etc), heavy weight zip ties to secure the front springs, then it should be fine.
And unless your playing "smokey and the bandit" and ramping over rivers and crap you shouldn't worry about unseating springs from bumps...
01-11-08, 11:01 PM
#38
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im done with people like you that think just because you have cut some springs that you know everything. i didnt ask you what u thought of what i sayed anyways ncross.
who sayed i dont have experience??? no one so dont make an assumtion.
just like everyone else on this forum with a few posts, think you know everything.
who sayed i dont have experience??? no one so dont make an assumtion.
just like everyone else on this forum with a few posts, think you know everything.
01-12-08, 12:39 AM
#39
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Scathcart:
Good catch on the camber thing I appreciate you setting myself and the record straight there.
NZConvertible:
I have respect for you and have no doubt that you can succesfully cut springs, I merely feel it wise to point out the possible problems of an amature attempt at lowering his car.
Ericgrau:
What is wrong with scathcart's equation? I would sooner see something proven with an equals sign than with an approximately equals sign.
Good catch on the camber thing I appreciate you setting myself and the record straight there.
NZConvertible:
I have respect for you and have no doubt that you can succesfully cut springs, I merely feel it wise to point out the possible problems of an amature attempt at lowering his car.
Ericgrau:
What is wrong with scathcart's equation? I would sooner see something proven with an equals sign than with an approximately equals sign.
01-12-08, 12:56 AM
#40
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ok seriously....cutting your springs is for posers. i dont care what anyone says if you really are into your car you should spend the extra green at least on lowering springs. ive had cars with loweing springs. after owning a few different cars with them i noticed that all they do is in the tittle. they only lower your car. your struts arent ment to be used at that hight so your suspension loses a lot of its performance. coilovers are well worth the money! i dont think that you could get any more bang foryour buck. even if you dont have the cash right away. save your money, and use it to get something you can show off. cheap mods make a cheap car. maybe even getting both springs and struts would be cool for someone on a lower budget.
your not going to listen to me anyways....so there will be another poorly moded car on the street making mine look even better in comparison. thanks!
your not going to listen to me anyways....so there will be another poorly moded car on the street making mine look even better in comparison. thanks!
01-12-08, 02:16 AM
#41
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Why do people suggest coilovers in a thread about cutting springs? If he could afford them, do you think this thread would even exist?
If he could afford them, do you think this thread would even exist?
01-12-08, 03:07 AM
#42
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1,
No money?
Cut stock springs = lower car = stiffer spring rates = blow your shocks = bouncy ride ( like a mexican )= If done improperly balance will be off.
2,
Some money?
Buy used aftermarket stock replacement springs and a set of Tokiko Blues = better than stock handling = good road balance for daily driving
3,
Got some money!!
Stance gr+/gr+pro = Harsh ride on the streets = ++ Performance on the track and height and front camber adjustability = +++
No money?
Cut stock springs = lower car = stiffer spring rates = blow your shocks = bouncy ride ( like a mexican )= If done improperly balance will be off.
2,
Some money?
Buy used aftermarket stock replacement springs and a set of Tokiko Blues = better than stock handling = good road balance for daily driving
3,
Got some money!!
Stance gr+/gr+pro = Harsh ride on the streets = ++ Performance on the track and height and front camber adjustability = +++
01-12-08, 03:12 AM
#44
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I cut my spring and i have not had a problem at all.
Its not bouncy either, just sometimes it feels a little stiff, just dont cut alot had a friend do that and he f*cked stuff up, so just a little and you will be fine.
Its not bouncy either, just sometimes it feels a little stiff, just dont cut alot had a friend do that and he f*cked stuff up, so just a little and you will be fine.
01-12-08, 04:48 AM
#45
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If you're so knowledgable then back up your claims with some actual engineering facts instead of over-dramatic generalisations.
who sayed i dont have experience???
A sensible amount of lowering from cutting springs (i.e. no more than an inch) will also increase the stiffness by a moderate amount. This is exactly the result you'd expect from a set of aftermarket performance springs. Are you saying they're for posers too?
ive had cars with loweing springs. after owning a few different cars with them i noticed that all they do is in the tittle. they only lower your car.
your struts arent ment to be used at that hight so your suspension loses a lot of its performance.
01-12-08, 08:02 AM
#46
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show some actual engenering facts that cutting springs is totally safe. seriously i would like to see that.
i didnt know that this was spelling class. im sorry MOM ill spell it right next time.
i didnt know that this was spelling class. im sorry MOM ill spell it right next time.
01-12-08, 10:19 AM
#47
I used to think cutting was ghetto, and cars with a ton of suspension aftermarket like an rx7 is just ghetto.. but on cars with no aftermarket you can get away with cutting 1-1.5 coils off the spring and may not affect suspension.. Did this to my 190e, lowered enough to where i liked it in the front end handling was not compremised, and i would go canyon driving with her.
01-12-08, 05:07 PM
#48
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So do you have experience with this or not? You seemed very offended when someone implied you didn't, but you didn't answer when I asked if you did.
i didnt know that this was spelling class. im sorry MOM ill spell it right next time.
01-12-08, 05:49 PM
#50
So its ghetto and only posers do it and there is no mechanically safe way or whatever.
Those of you with FB's that have looked into their suspension probably know the name GForce engineering.
Jim and I owned a couple FB race cars together when he first started developing what he sells. We couldn't get the springs we needed with the right diameter, rate and free height for the rear. Nobody was running springs anywhere near the 300lb per inch we wanted.
With a little math and an exhaust cut off tool we made the springs we needed from the stock springs and made a spacer that was about 2.5 inches tall to get the free height needed.
So, it can be done, no big deal. Just do it right and you won't have any problems with the springs. The rest of the suspension geometry is another issue.
Those of you with FB's that have looked into their suspension probably know the name GForce engineering.
Jim and I owned a couple FB race cars together when he first started developing what he sells. We couldn't get the springs we needed with the right diameter, rate and free height for the rear. Nobody was running springs anywhere near the 300lb per inch we wanted.
With a little math and an exhaust cut off tool we made the springs we needed from the stock springs and made a spacer that was about 2.5 inches tall to get the free height needed.
So, it can be done, no big deal. Just do it right and you won't have any problems with the springs. The rest of the suspension geometry is another issue.