current and potential users of pineapple sleeves, MUST READ
 

**FIRST OF ALL**

I wish to state clearly up front that this is in no way an attack on PR, their products, services, etc. I have much respect for Rob and his products, and am not seeking to damage that reputation in any way.

The purpose of this post is to serve as a warning/advisory to current and future users of this product in regards to installation. Perhaps by posting this information, I can help save someone else from the tragedy that has occured here.

With that said, some background information. This is a freshly rebuilt (by me) GSLSE hybrid engine (stock rotors with new seals, s5 NA rotorhousings, s4 NA irons, streetport on auxiliary ports only). IF you wish to know why I chose this combo for the hybrid, it was because any original stock 1gen rotorhousings will be trashed, and s5's always come out very well in comparison, and would make a better engine in the long run. I used the s4 irons because the s3 irons have smaller ports.

At the same time the engine was rebuilt, the 6PI sleeves were installed, along with a s4 NA intake manifold set for better flow.

Now, I have installed a couple sets of these before in other cars, and always found them to be a fairly tight fit, requiring a lot of effort to press into place in the sleeve. In fact, I put them in my own freshly rebuilt 89 'vert just over 2k miles ago. Recently, upon disassembly of my intake manifold for emissions removal on the 'vert, I found the same failure that I am about to explain below. I did reinstall the sleeves along with a method that I hope will hold them in place better, but after seeing this, Im considering going right back in and taking them out altogether.

Note that no specific directions for installation are given with the sleeves, and none is really needed. The pineapple website says "The fit is extremely tight and ensures the insert will not move. " I, as did most of you guys, took this advice at face value and threw them in the engine. What you're about to see is the result of this, observed in MORE THAN ONE ENGINE.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0001.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0004.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0003.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0002.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0005.JPG


What you're seeing is the sleeve installed in the port sleeve JUST as it came out of the engine. Note that the insert is free to move about the sleeve. Note also that the insert has been banging away for some time at the rod at the OPPOSING end of the sleeve. Yes, when these were installed, they were tightly pressed into the end of the sleeve and it did not appear possible to get them out even if you wanted to try.

NOte that the above was observed on MORE THAN ONE ENGINE.

Well, on this rebuilt SE engine for a local friend, it appears the damage went one step further. My theory is that either a) the insert banged away at the rod in the sleeve until it knocked it out of place, allowing it to fall into the engine, or b) the insert banged away at the rod in the sleeve until it cut it in half allowing the pieces to fall inside the engine. Either way, it is clear that the rod from the sleeve went through the engine. No pieces of the rod were recovered from the engine.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0007.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0008.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0009.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0010.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0011.JPG
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/pi...e/DSCF0012.JPG


Now, these gripping photos are not meant to steer you away from this quality product. What they are meant to do is persuade you to consider opening your intake back up and checking them again to be sure this cant happen to you. My guess is, that if someone fairly competent such as myself can fall victim to this failure, so can many others who have installed them. Im trying to save engines and money here.

I still believe the product design and quality are very good. I believe we should continue to use them. I just think that someone, be it pineapple or one of us, should come up with a bulletproof way to secure these before installation into the engine. Failure to do so, even if they seem nice and tight, can yield the above results.

I am thinking that it might be possible to use some sort of heat rated epoxy in combination with the inserts to keep them secure. Also, it might be possible to use a vise or other clamping device to make dimples in the sleeve itself right in front of the installed insert to prevent movement backwards. The only problem here is doing so without distorting the sleeve itself which could result in the sleeve fitting too tightly and not opening properly or at all. Regardless, I think this issue needs a little extra R & D which is why I made this post. Dont let it happen to you. Check your sleeves today.

DEAR GOD!!!!


Oh crap!!

:tear:

Anybody bought sleeves with inserts from PR??? before they started selling the inserts alone...

PR sold sleeves with inserts in them before... how was the process done by PR... was it welding on the sleeve??? i was thinking maybe brazing the insert on the sleeve...

Nice info kevin,when i recently put my engine back together and installed the sleeves,i noticed they were a little loose fitting so i JB welded the sleeves into place.After seeing those pics im gonna have to pull my ntake just to make sure they are not moving around in there and waiting to muck something up.Once again(and always) very good info from kevin.

but thanks for letting us know hypntyz... i was thinking about this mod... could the larger port have anyeffect on this matter??

Yes, but they havent done so in nearly a year I believe.

When I heard of the problem they were having with getting useable core sleeves in order to sell their product, I offered to GIVE Rob 32 SETS (64 sleeves) of sleeves FREE, but that wasnt good enough evidently.

No, the shape of the port in the iron is totally independent of the sleeve and insert.

why buy new ones when u can port them your self like my friend did . and it works fine . who are u

He's a guy who works on RX-7's a lot...everytime I've even mentioned a re-build to anyone on this board, he's the person who's been suggested to me, by multiple people. I should think he knows what he's doing...

if you send them sleeves will they still do it for you? what i mean is like they have a core charge and stuff but it sounds to me like you're saying they dont do that setup anymore..

i think i might check mine to night for sure

I Instinctivly put red Loctite on my Inserts prior to Installation. When I do have my Intake off, I give them a looksy. I've had them In for well over 2 yrs now. But thanks for the Heads Up!!! I may undergo another removal due to the paranoia you've Installed In me.:eek:

A 1/8" roll pin in a drilled hole through the sleeve into the insert would be a simple way to hold it..

damn.

When I got my aux. port sleeves, it was when pineapple used to sell the sleeves with the inserts already installed. I have had them in my FC for about a year, and removed them, and they are now in a friends FB. The inserts were still in place and tight. Maybe someone should contact Rob and ask him if there is any type of epoxy that was used when they installed the inserts? I think a 2-stage epoxy would work well, or even drilling a small hole at the base of the sleeve, putting in the insert , and then making a small tach weld to hold in into place.

Thanks for this post Kevin. This needs to be looked into further.

I'm running these sleeves for about 1 year now in my S5. I did just what a member above suggested. I sent Rob my core, and he pressed the sleeves in himself and returned my sleeves back to nice and ready to install.

I dunno if I should be worried or not....I'm the one who has rxmfn7's sleeves, and he ran them in his car for some time. I was swapping engines, and he offered to give them to me, since I had my engine apart, to save me from opening it up later on. We took them out of his car, and they looked fine, like brand new. So I threw them in my car. :confused:

His were already exposed to use and heat and they held up....I would think if they haven'tdone this yet that they won't in the future, but I'm still not sure. :(

holy shit :eek:

You guys had good ideas for holding the insert in place. Keep in mind that the sleeve and the inside of the iron are a pretty tight fit, and a rollpin inserted through the length of the sleeve would likely interfere with the sleeve's ability to rotate freely. Since the sleeve is so thin, if you ground down the rollpin so that it didnt protrude from the sleeve, it'd barely have any sleeve material to hold onto, and probably wouldnt be as strong as one would think. If you look at where the factory pin goes through the sleeve, youll notice the sleeve is made smaller there, so that the rollpin cant come in contact with the iron, but it can still maintain contact with the sleeve well.


As far as welding, well, not everyone has the ability to weld aluminum.

As for epoxy, well, that's what Im trying now.

When I first saw the PR sleeves I liked them but was uncomfortable with just pressing them in. I was thinking of drilling and tapping a hole for a screw in the very end of the sleeve but a roll pin would probably be enough. In the end I decided just to pass on the sleeves.

Don't want to mess around when there is a possibility of something falling in the engine.

OMG I just helped my friend install these in his GXL...

I noticed that they were built on used core sleeves. Perhaps these cores are getting older and not properly cleaned before the ramps are glued in?

Anybody hear from Pineapple yet as far as their responsibility to their customers?

Anyway, I'm going to show my friend these pics right away, and then we will take them right back out and secure those little buggers. Fingers crossed...

I would bet measurements were taken and the inserts designed off of new sleeves.

IF anything, a used sleeve that is even a little dirty should serve as a deterrent to the insert moving around, since you're bound to have some residual carbon in the corners and cracks that would make it an even tighter fit than on a new sleeve.

JB weld!

hhaha no jb weld. to much of a story behind that. right roy james!! lol