Comparing Carb to EMS
05-08-03, 11:34 AM
#26
Ok cool well I could buy one of those EGT guages. hmmm
Would a 12A distributer work on my N/a? I don't know of any S3 13B's around hear at yards so that is all I would be able to get locally. I also want to hear more about leaving the CAS on what would have to stay connected? To maintain the stock guages funckionin what would I need to keep from the old EFI harness and stuff?
Would a 12A distributer work on my N/a? I don't know of any S3 13B's around hear at yards so that is all I would be able to get locally. I also want to hear more about leaving the CAS on what would have to stay connected? To maintain the stock guages funckionin what would I need to keep from the old EFI harness and stuff?
05-08-03, 12:23 PM
#27
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
If you can get in on a group buy, you can get a Microtech EMS for the same price as the RB Holley carb kit. The Microtech LT series isn't exactly the world's most advanced EMS, but it is far superior to the stock computer, and you do not need a laptop to tune it, although it will hook up to a computer if you like. You may also be able to obtain a used Wolf3D 3.x for cheap, which is similar to the MT EMS in that it has a hand controller so no laptop is required, although the MT would be a little easier to install.
IMO carbs are extremely difficult to tune for those without a lot of experience. An EMS is much more understandable with increase/decrease values for raw numbers and lots of nice charts or other organized displays of settings. Carb tuning requires "eyeballing" the values with screw turns, parts bending, spring tension voodoo math, and trial and error with different venturis and emulsion tubes. Also, you can tune an EMS from inside your car with the AC and stereo on. When tuning a carb, you need to mess around under the hood, and you need to come to a stop or even shut off the engine to make adjustments inbetween runs. Some carb adjustments even require swapping of venturis and emulsion tubes. Thanks, but I'll stick with EFI where I only have to install the injectors once.
Simple? The last time I checked the carb had quite a few more parts than FI.
Um, how do you figure more power with a carb?
Cost - yes, a ghetto carb setup made with used parts can be pretty cheap. However, the FC comes with EFI from the factory, so the beginning cost for EFI is $0. The 12A already comes with a carb setup, so an aftermarket carb makes more sense in that case.
Contrary to popular belief, carbs and FI are both capable of presenting a clean engine bay appearance, and both have about the same amout of plumbing for a basic installation. If the owner wishes to add extra EFI inputs or outputs, or extra carb inputs or outputs (choke, vacuum advance, etc.), that's up to him/her. The "clean engine bay" excuse for an el cheapo carb setup doesn't fly in reality.
LOL, emissions are a problem with any type of aftermarket induction system, especially one that is intended for more performance.
IMO carbs are extremely difficult to tune for those without a lot of experience. An EMS is much more understandable with increase/decrease values for raw numbers and lots of nice charts or other organized displays of settings. Carb tuning requires "eyeballing" the values with screw turns, parts bending, spring tension voodoo math, and trial and error with different venturis and emulsion tubes. Also, you can tune an EMS from inside your car with the AC and stereo on. When tuning a carb, you need to mess around under the hood, and you need to come to a stop or even shut off the engine to make adjustments inbetween runs. Some carb adjustments even require swapping of venturis and emulsion tubes. Thanks, but I'll stick with EFI where I only have to install the injectors once.
Originally posted by jon88se
the carb rules for simplicity, power, cost and cleanliness of the engine bay but if you have emissions testing you're SCREWED!!
the carb rules for simplicity, power, cost and cleanliness of the engine bay but if you have emissions testing you're SCREWED!!
Um, how do you figure more power with a carb?
Cost - yes, a ghetto carb setup made with used parts can be pretty cheap. However, the FC comes with EFI from the factory, so the beginning cost for EFI is $0. The 12A already comes with a carb setup, so an aftermarket carb makes more sense in that case.
Contrary to popular belief, carbs and FI are both capable of presenting a clean engine bay appearance, and both have about the same amout of plumbing for a basic installation. If the owner wishes to add extra EFI inputs or outputs, or extra carb inputs or outputs (choke, vacuum advance, etc.), that's up to him/her. The "clean engine bay" excuse for an el cheapo carb setup doesn't fly in reality.
LOL, emissions are a problem with any type of aftermarket induction system, especially one that is intended for more performance.
05-08-03, 01:04 PM
#28
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,891
Received 2,638 Likes
on
1,868 Posts
Originally posted by Evil Aviator
. Also, you can tune an EMS from inside your car with the AC and stereo on. .
. Also, you can tune an EMS from inside your car with the AC and stereo on. .
mike
05-08-03, 01:04 PM
#29
Eat, sleep, work, mod.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Long Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, EFI is the choice for best power and tunability...i wasn't saying that carb's rule OVER EFI for any of their good traits I listed, just that those are the upsides over the stock fuel injection...more power, tunability (obviously the stock FI can't be adjusted without an AFC or something which won't net a ton of gains) and easy in terms of cost and installation. Cost is really the only defining issue for me, it's a lot less than a quality standalone setup and performs really well. 
EFI is actually good for emissions provided the user can tune quickly and on the fly...LOADS of adjustments to be made likely not just pass emissions, but pas w/ flying colors. You get a lot of potential efficiency w/ something like a TECIII bc everything is adjustable. We passed NY emissions on a dyno w/ TECII on one of our old school L series Z motors running a full T4, 660 cc injectors and one stock nissan cat we flanged to 3 inches to (to fit the exhaust hehe). The motor is built and the head outflows the IMSA race heads these cars used back in the day. There are no emissions equipment on this motor except fot that one cat and w/ some playing the cr passed real clean. For a rotary setup though I think an EFI is wasted on an NA motor...a stock TII swap w/ minor mods will net much larger performance for the $$ But a carb setup on an NA is not expensive and hp per dollar a great thing for those who don't have emissions tests in their area.
I know Haltech is the big EFI system for rotary people, I wonder why more people don't use TEC's, any idea? We;ve had great experiences w/ them on piston engines!!
EFI is actually good for emissions provided the user can tune quickly and on the fly...LOADS of adjustments to be made likely not just pass emissions, but pas w/ flying colors. You get a lot of potential efficiency w/ something like a TECIII bc everything is adjustable. We passed NY emissions on a dyno w/ TECII on one of our old school L series Z motors running a full T4, 660 cc injectors and one stock nissan cat we flanged to 3 inches to (to fit the exhaust hehe). The motor is built and the head outflows the IMSA race heads these cars used back in the day. There are no emissions equipment on this motor except fot that one cat and w/ some playing the cr passed real clean. For a rotary setup though I think an EFI is wasted on an NA motor...a stock TII swap w/ minor mods will net much larger performance for the $$ But a carb setup on an NA is not expensive and hp per dollar a great thing for those who don't have emissions tests in their area.I know Haltech is the big EFI system for rotary people, I wonder why more people don't use TEC's, any idea? We;ve had great experiences w/ them on piston engines!!
Last edited by jon88se; 05-08-03 at 01:06 PM.
05-08-03, 01:46 PM
#30
If you can get in on a group buy, you can get a Microtech EMS for the same price as the RB Holley carb kit.
You may also be able to obtain a used Wolf3D 3.x for cheap, which is similar to the MT EMS in that it has a hand controller so no laptop is required, although the MT would be a little easier to install.
IMO carbs are extremely difficult to tune for those without a lot of experience. An EMS is much more understandable with increase/decrease values for raw numbers and lots of nice charts or other organized displays of settings
. Also, you can tune an EMS from inside your car with the AC and stereo on
LOL, emissions are a problem with any type of aftermarket induction system, especially one that is intended for more performance.
I would like both setups but for different reasons other than MORE POWAH!!!
Carb just sounds cool and looks cool too.
EMS is high tech and I am a computer and electronics type of guy.
05-09-03, 10:11 PM
#33
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
I have a Holley Blue fuel pump and FPR on my carbed stock-block 12A. It works, it's rebuildable, and it's cheap.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin.../12-802-1.html
http://members.tripod.com/rx7speedshop/id48.htm
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin.../12-802-1.html
http://members.tripod.com/rx7speedshop/id48.htm
05-09-03, 11:26 PM
#35
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
Cool guys:
Ok now what kind of numbers would I see over the stock engine/ECU with a full exhaust?
Cool guys:
Ok now what kind of numbers would I see over the stock engine/ECU with a full exhaust?
05-17-03, 02:54 PM
#40
RIP Icemark
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Aloha OR
Posts: 1,481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, isn't getting pretty close to teh famed 200hp at the wheels goal right?
Adn yes 1987 Both Dellorto and Mikuni are carb makers. They make IDA/DOCE style carbs much like webber.
Adn yes 1987 Both Dellorto and Mikuni are carb makers. They make IDA/DOCE style carbs much like webber.
05-17-03, 03:03 PM
#41
Yeah My personal goal is 200 RWHP. Ok well that dyno sheet was helpfull but anyone have one on stock ports?
WAN: what manifolds were the carbs on? and could you provid a bit more info on the EMS numbers what amount of time was spent tunning?
WAN: what manifolds were the carbs on? and could you provid a bit more info on the EMS numbers what amount of time was spent tunning?
05-17-03, 07:53 PM
#42
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
If your chosen EMS comes with a base map, you can have it fully tuned in 2-4 hours depending on the tuner's experience, which includes fuel and ignition, plus many other features. It would take at least that long to get the best numbers out of a carb due to the fact you have to stop the engine and swap jets, etc to make fuelling changes. Then you need to sort out ignition.
Which ever way you go, you still have to allow some money for dyno tuning.
Which ever way you go, you still have to allow some money for dyno tuning.
05-18-03, 01:07 AM
#43
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
cool no we have some NUMBERS ok so this dyno sheet is from the same car with an EMS and CABR setup what is that Mikuni thing? is is another carb? someone help me out here.
cool no we have some NUMBERS ok so this dyno sheet is from the same car with an EMS and CABR setup what is that Mikuni thing? is is another carb? someone help me out here.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Captain Hook
2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992)
13
10-04-15 06:35 PM