Comparing Carb to EMS
Comparing Carb to EMS
05-06-03, 03:29 PM
#2
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What do you plan on doing with your car? That may effect some of the pro's/con's you get.
Personally I prefer EMS. Many people will tell you it cost to much to set up a fuel injected car. I feel they are wrong.
Another thing people complain about is the complexity of using a keypad or computer to program an EMS system. These people have either never tried to program one or they were trying to program an old non-user friendly version. The newer versions of most EMS's are easy to use. Just study up a little bit before you start. Personally I would avoid the EMS's that require a laptop and extra software for the laptop to program your system. Microtech sells a good product that is simple to use with good support if needed. A laptop is optional but not required.
Personally I prefer EMS. Many people will tell you it cost to much to set up a fuel injected car. I feel they are wrong.
Another thing people complain about is the complexity of using a keypad or computer to program an EMS system. These people have either never tried to program one or they were trying to program an old non-user friendly version. The newer versions of most EMS's are easy to use. Just study up a little bit before you start. Personally I would avoid the EMS's that require a laptop and extra software for the laptop to program your system. Microtech sells a good product that is simple to use with good support if needed. A laptop is optional but not required.
05-06-03, 05:25 PM
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well bascially there are 2 differences that matter.
1. since the carb relys on a venturi to make a low pressure it'll be down on power vs the same sized efi
2. efi has a bunch of hidden costs; like the laptop, sensors, injectors etc
mike
1. since the carb relys on a venturi to make a low pressure it'll be down on power vs the same sized efi
2. efi has a bunch of hidden costs; like the laptop, sensors, injectors etc
mike
05-06-03, 06:06 PM
#5
yeah but how much power will it make? either of them how much of an HP difference can they make? a Laptop and sensors will cost me more that 2k dollars not to mention the EMS itself. How mush does a the full Carb conversion cost with all the stuff working and tools to work with it?
05-06-03, 06:43 PM
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It all depends, blown or N/A? I have a carbed TII and I have around 500 HP....I still need to dyno it though. compared to EFI I believe that bang for your buck it is better. There are no hidden costs and in my eyes after I learned how to tune my carb it is a whole lot easier than a laptop. You can find an intake from racing beat and I bought my carb used. My intake is a different model that isnt used anymore called Jay-Tech. I have pics on this forum of my car. If you search NeilTII you will find a lot of stuff on this subject. EFI is easier for a fast street car to drive around. I have a big article where a rotary shop tested all of the carb intakes and they made about 240HP off of a mildly built engine. The tools to work with a carb is basically the intake, carb, FPR, fuel pump, a/f guage, and the jet kit to change the sizes of your jets(not expensive). Thats all I can think of right now but if you need more info just ask. Ohh yeah. Say good buy to vacume lines too. Most of them.
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05-06-03, 07:00 PM
#8
Originally posted by Makenzie71
$874 for a complete carb kit from pierce manifolds. Comes with everything to convert it...except for a means by operating the omp.
$874 for a complete carb kit from pierce manifolds. Comes with everything to convert it...except for a means by operating the omp.
See the top of the Page the stickey with my User Name.
Pre-Mix baby!!!!
So that comes with everything to make the car work? Oh and in your thread I asked if you keep the 5th and 6th port actuation or is it just 6 open ports?Thankx for the info though. Maybe next fall I will go carbed.
05-06-03, 07:00 PM
#9
Originally posted by NeilTII
It all depends, blown or N/A? I have a carbed TII and I have around 500 HP....I still need to dyno it though. compared to EFI I believe that bang for your buck it is better. There are no hidden costs and in my eyes after I learned how to tune my carb it is a whole lot easier than a laptop. You can find an intake from racing beat and I bought my carb used. My intake is a different model that isnt used anymore called Jay-Tech. I have pics on this forum of my car. If you search NeilTII you will find a lot of stuff on this subject. EFI is easier for a fast street car to drive around. I have a big article where a rotary shop tested all of the carb intakes and they made about 240HP off of a mildly built engine. The tools to work with a carb is basically the intake, carb, FPR, fuel pump, a/f guage, and the jet kit to change the sizes of your jets(not expensive). Thats all I can think of right now but if you need more info just ask. Ohh yeah. Say good buy to vacume lines too. Most of them.
It all depends, blown or N/A? I have a carbed TII and I have around 500 HP....I still need to dyno it though. compared to EFI I believe that bang for your buck it is better. There are no hidden costs and in my eyes after I learned how to tune my carb it is a whole lot easier than a laptop. You can find an intake from racing beat and I bought my carb used. My intake is a different model that isnt used anymore called Jay-Tech. I have pics on this forum of my car. If you search NeilTII you will find a lot of stuff on this subject. EFI is easier for a fast street car to drive around. I have a big article where a rotary shop tested all of the carb intakes and they made about 240HP off of a mildly built engine. The tools to work with a carb is basically the intake, carb, FPR, fuel pump, a/f guage, and the jet kit to change the sizes of your jets(not expensive). Thats all I can think of right now but if you need more info just ask. Ohh yeah. Say good buy to vacume lines too. Most of them.
Well my car is N/a how would the effects of a carbed system change as oppossed to a Turbo or supercharged application?
05-06-03, 07:10 PM
#10
...94% correct.
I wanna know what kind of fuel pump shoudl be used with a 48IDA? I'm sure if I just wire the stock pump up to it it will be overkill for the carb.
If I swipe the fuel pump and FPR built for a 400, would that work or would that be overkill, or not enough? What would be ideal?
If I swipe the fuel pump and FPR built for a 400, would that work or would that be overkill, or not enough? What would be ideal?
05-06-03, 07:23 PM
#12
...94% correct.
Me and 1987RX7guy are talking the same thing but have different threads covering it...so, this is the link to mine with the info from pierce manifolds and such, but please lets keep the responses in this thread.
05-06-03, 09:43 PM
#13
...94% correct.
05-07-03, 02:18 AM
#14
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Peak power is not about fuel delivery, it's about airflow. If you install a carb that that can outflow the stock EFI manifold, your peak power will be higher. If you replace the stock EFI manifolds with aftermarket gear there's not a carb that'll come close.
But assuming equal airflow, EFI will still be superior in every perfomance aspect, because it's accuracy of fuel delivery is so much better than a carb. Peak power will be similar, but mid-range will be much better, meaning the car will be quicker overall and it'll even use less gas doing so. EFI isn't affected by things like air temperature and altitude like a carb is, because it can automatically measure these varibles and adjust to suit. All but the cheapest EFI systems also offer full control over ignition timing, again offering accuracy that a dizzy can't touch and hence more power. Tuning is so much easier because it's all done in real time with the car on the dyno. Anyone who can understand forum software can understand aftermarket EFI sofware.
The advantages of a carb are few and far between. Cost is usually mentioned, but as with most cars modifications you get what you pay for. EFI doesn't have any hidden costs unless you don't know what you're doing. Carbs may be also simpler, but again, if you understand EFI it's really not complicated at all.
But assuming equal airflow, EFI will still be superior in every perfomance aspect, because it's accuracy of fuel delivery is so much better than a carb. Peak power will be similar, but mid-range will be much better, meaning the car will be quicker overall and it'll even use less gas doing so. EFI isn't affected by things like air temperature and altitude like a carb is, because it can automatically measure these varibles and adjust to suit. All but the cheapest EFI systems also offer full control over ignition timing, again offering accuracy that a dizzy can't touch and hence more power. Tuning is so much easier because it's all done in real time with the car on the dyno. Anyone who can understand forum software can understand aftermarket EFI sofware.
The advantages of a carb are few and far between. Cost is usually mentioned, but as with most cars modifications you get what you pay for. EFI doesn't have any hidden costs unless you don't know what you're doing. Carbs may be also simpler, but again, if you understand EFI it's really not complicated at all.
05-07-03, 06:54 AM
#15
Originally posted by NZConvertible
Peak power is not about fuel delivery, it's about airflow. If you install a carb that that can outflow the stock EFI manifold, your peak power will be higher. If you replace the stock EFI manifolds with aftermarket gear there's not a carb that'll come close.
But assuming equal airflow, EFI will still be superior in every perfomance aspect, because it's accuracy of fuel delivery is so much better than a carb. Peak power will be similar, but mid-range will be much better, meaning the car will be quicker overall and it'll even use less gas doing so. EFI isn't affected by things like air temperature and altitude like a carb is, because it can automatically measure these varibles and adjust to suit. All but the cheapest EFI systems also offer full control over ignition timing, again offering accuracy that a dizzy can't touch and hence more power. Tuning is so much easier because it's all done in real time with the car on the dyno. Anyone who can understand forum software can understand aftermarket EFI sofware.
The advantages of a carb are few and far between. Cost is usually mentioned, but as with most cars modifications you get what you pay for. EFI doesn't have any hidden costs unless you don't know what you're doing. Carbs may be also simpler, but again, if you understand EFI it's really not complicated at all.
Peak power is not about fuel delivery, it's about airflow. If you install a carb that that can outflow the stock EFI manifold, your peak power will be higher. If you replace the stock EFI manifolds with aftermarket gear there's not a carb that'll come close.
But assuming equal airflow, EFI will still be superior in every perfomance aspect, because it's accuracy of fuel delivery is so much better than a carb. Peak power will be similar, but mid-range will be much better, meaning the car will be quicker overall and it'll even use less gas doing so. EFI isn't affected by things like air temperature and altitude like a carb is, because it can automatically measure these varibles and adjust to suit. All but the cheapest EFI systems also offer full control over ignition timing, again offering accuracy that a dizzy can't touch and hence more power. Tuning is so much easier because it's all done in real time with the car on the dyno. Anyone who can understand forum software can understand aftermarket EFI sofware.
The advantages of a carb are few and far between. Cost is usually mentioned, but as with most cars modifications you get what you pay for. EFI doesn't have any hidden costs unless you don't know what you're doing. Carbs may be also simpler, but again, if you understand EFI it's really not complicated at all.
- The EFI weeber style had the "best overall" hp gains, menaing a decent mid and the highest peak power!
-The webber put out the "best" mid hp, with a lower "peak" HP vs the EFI webber style.
Both the EFI webber & the webber were using the same lower intake manifold!
All in all, I *think* the final price tag between EFI vs carbs are pretty much the same after everything is said and done.
05-07-03, 12:18 PM
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i just got thru reading that article. the manifolds are the same for both, the efi gets better midrange and peak power (no venturi = more airflow). however, they bought the following
twm tbody = 350
twm tps (its unique) = 100
twm fuel rail = 150
2x 750 injectors = those are like 200+ each, big is $$
plus the f10 = 850?
laptop = 400
total = $2250 approx*
vs $800 for a weber + 200 for misc jets and a fuel pressure regualtor.
mike
*with the twm setup you cant use stock mazda injectors, its setup for the bosch style
twm tbody = 350
twm tps (its unique) = 100
twm fuel rail = 150
2x 750 injectors = those are like 200+ each, big is $$
plus the f10 = 850?
laptop = 400
total = $2250 approx*
vs $800 for a weber + 200 for misc jets and a fuel pressure regualtor.
mike
*with the twm setup you cant use stock mazda injectors, its setup for the bosch style
05-07-03, 02:30 PM
#18
Originally posted by j9fd3s
i just got thru reading that article. the manifolds are the same for both, the efi gets better midrange and peak power (no venturi = more airflow). however, they bought the following
twm tbody = 350
twm tps (its unique) = 100
twm fuel rail = 150
2x 750 injectors = those are like 200+ each, big is $$
plus the f10 = 850?
laptop = 400
total = $2250 approx*
vs $800 for a weber + 200 for misc jets and a fuel pressure regualtor.
mike
*with the twm setup you cant use stock mazda injectors, its setup for the bosch style
i just got thru reading that article. the manifolds are the same for both, the efi gets better midrange and peak power (no venturi = more airflow). however, they bought the following
twm tbody = 350
twm tps (its unique) = 100
twm fuel rail = 150
2x 750 injectors = those are like 200+ each, big is $$
plus the f10 = 850?
laptop = 400
total = $2250 approx*
vs $800 for a weber + 200 for misc jets and a fuel pressure regualtor.
mike
*with the twm setup you cant use stock mazda injectors, its setup for the bosch style
05-07-03, 02:38 PM
#19
The mystery of the prize.
I'm in the process of installing the aforementioned TWM setup, there are more hidden costs that were not mentioned. The fuel rail from TWM does not come with the AN O-ring fittings, these must be purchased seperately. You will also likely require a new FPR, more AN O-ring fittings, and then AN hose ends etc, after the fuel system is all said and done you are probably approacing $2600-$3000 depending on what quality stuff you go with.
You also need to get a air filter setup, most people prefer the ITG filter. Theres also the issue of fitment, the TWM throttle body does not come with hardware, so you need to get studs/bolts/nuts/lock washers etc, and in my case, a phenolic spacer was fabricated also.
almost done wiring the haltech.
You also need to get a air filter setup, most people prefer the ITG filter. Theres also the issue of fitment, the TWM throttle body does not come with hardware, so you need to get studs/bolts/nuts/lock washers etc, and in my case, a phenolic spacer was fabricated also.
almost done wiring the haltech.
05-07-03, 07:10 PM
#20
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All I know is that when the atmosphere changes it takes me 10 min flat to make the changes with my carb. For the price it cost me I can live with those 10 min. I also have injectors welded into the hard piping and the control box makes up for the quick atmosphere changes. And about the emissions testing.....all you have to do is enrich the mixture as much you can with your car still running. The sniffer cannot read it right. I've done this with my Holley blow through setup and it worked. And when it comes to N/A, The Holley out performes the Webbers and Delltoros. I have dyno proof. You can make more power and simplicity (if you know ECU's) if you go with EFI. I have a turbod carby so I am in a different class but I still have done the research. If you want more torque you need longer intake runners. And to make HP you don't just need air flow, you also need fuel and spark. Everyone knows that the more of each gets you more HP. I went through this process my self and I noticed significantly when I upgraded each, and now that they all three are upgraded my car is done.
05-07-03, 07:49 PM
#21
The mystery of the prize.
If you have the money, you can't beat a good, programmable, speed/density EFI setup.
The dynamic nature of EFI will make your car perform better in all conditions, and the increased level and precision of control in the fuel delivery across all rpm and load ranges provided with a programmable system gives you more tunability than any carb setup enabling you to produce more power should you take advantage of it.
The dynamic nature of EFI will make your car perform better in all conditions, and the increased level and precision of control in the fuel delivery across all rpm and load ranges provided with a programmable system gives you more tunability than any carb setup enabling you to produce more power should you take advantage of it.
05-08-03, 05:47 AM
#22
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Originally posted by NeilTII
All I know is that when the atmosphere changes it takes me 10 min flat to make the changes with my carb.
All I know is that when the atmosphere changes it takes me 10 min flat to make the changes with my carb.
And to make HP you don't just need air flow, you also need fuel and spark. Everyone knows that the more of each gets you more HP.
When I said "making power is about airflow", I meant that whatever system flows the most air will make the highest peak power. It doesn't matter how you add the fuel (carb or EFI), as long as it's the right amount for the airflow.
I haven't read that magazine article, so I can't comment on the specifics, but if the EFI made best the peak power (and hence had better breathing), but the carb made better midrange then there's likely an issue with tuning. A well tuned carb is better than poorly tuned EFI, but tune the EFI properly it will provide superior performance.
Personally I think the carb vs. EFI debate will always come down to money. If you can afford it, EFI will always give you better results. If you can't then a carb can still provide gains over the stock EFI system, but with a few compromises.
BTW, note that I've never said "carbs are crap" or "carbs won't work with turbos", just that EFI will always work better.
05-08-03, 09:51 AM
#23
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EFI does work better but it's more complicated in terms of cost, parts and installation...if you've got the money a fully electronic standalone is unbeatable but for those that don't a carb setup could be the inexpensive way to make lots of reliable power w/ a nice safety margin...i think these are the points this thread makes. I don't think anyone is arguing about which is the best route to choose bc that will vary depending on the owner and the car. EFI is very cool, very high tech and now easier to do than ever...a turbo-carb setup (IMO) on a rotary is just plain evil and very very trick. Neil's car must sound completely wicked!! The other week at a local show I saw a blue S4 FC with a built 4 port motor (no turbo) with lots of port work and a custom supercharger setup that this owner developed as a one-off system w/ carbs. This was pretty nice work for a "home depot" system and between the massive bridgeport and the amount of air this thing was sucking in (and blowing out through the BOV) it was very intimidating. I heard 500hp was a realistic figure about this car and traction loss in 4th gear on the highway 
05-08-03, 11:26 AM
#24
So on an N/a with my mods if I were to go for a carb settup what kind of numbers would I see with some tunning? Oh and do I need a dyno to tune a carb like EFI or not? The reason is that I have yet to locate a dyno in my city 
. Has anyone found out what pump and pressure regulator would work best with a carb?
. Has anyone found out what pump and pressure regulator would work best with a carb?
05-08-03, 11:30 AM
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well, a dyno is always best but a good EGT gauge is a good indicator to tune with on an NA. w/ the probe right after your exhaust manifold you should be looking for 850 celcius at WOT in 3rd-4th Greddy makes a nice responsive gauge... I wouldn't tune a TII solely with an EGT gauge bc the turbo will produce heat/possible detonation faster than the EGT will react. This isn't really an issue w/ the NA as I see it...thoughts??