Clearcoat vs. single stage paint for doing just the doors?
03-12-09, 11:29 PM
#1
Clearcoat vs. single stage paint for doing just the doors?
My '88 GTU has most of its original PZ Brilliant Black paint except on the doors and the middle of the right rear fender. I'm guessing the first owner had this done quite a while ago because the repainted parts are starting to age and yellow. I can tell when I polish the car that the repainted parts are clearcoated while the rest of the original paint is single stage.
Question: If I get the doors professionally redone again to correct the aging bodywork, is it better if the shop uses single stage or a basecoat/clearcoat method?
I used to have a Blaze Red '90 that had a few panels repainted with clearcoat with the rest of the paint OEM single stage. A few weeks after I'd wax it, you could see a significant difference in fading between the original single stage vs. repainted clearcoated panels, so I'd really like to avoid that problem if possible. However, all the shops I've visited so far tell me nobody paints anything single stage anymore because it is simply less durable and it will actually be possible to get a better color match to the existing paint if a base/clear is used. This sounds crazy to me, but I'm not a professional painter. Also, I'd really like to keep the car as "original" or "original-like" as possible since it has low mileage and is in such great shape.
Does anyone have any experience with this?
Question: If I get the doors professionally redone again to correct the aging bodywork, is it better if the shop uses single stage or a basecoat/clearcoat method?
I used to have a Blaze Red '90 that had a few panels repainted with clearcoat with the rest of the paint OEM single stage. A few weeks after I'd wax it, you could see a significant difference in fading between the original single stage vs. repainted clearcoated panels, so I'd really like to avoid that problem if possible. However, all the shops I've visited so far tell me nobody paints anything single stage anymore because it is simply less durable and it will actually be possible to get a better color match to the existing paint if a base/clear is used. This sounds crazy to me, but I'm not a professional painter. Also, I'd really like to keep the car as "original" or "original-like" as possible since it has low mileage and is in such great shape.
Does anyone have any experience with this?
03-12-09, 11:35 PM
#2
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i'd actually go with what the painters say, its counter intuitive i know, but they do work with paint all day...
that being said, get a couple more opinions, you might find someone who knows how to do a non clear finish
that being said, get a couple more opinions, you might find someone who knows how to do a non clear finish
03-12-09, 11:37 PM
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Nice car, i would do base and clear, i am pretty sure thats how it came from factory not 100% sure. Also might as well just get a complete respray if your going to invest money into it. Would be cheaper in the long run as going back each time only induces more labor then needed. If you go that route either method will be fine, depending on what you want i suppose. Cheap vs. Little pricey.
03-12-09, 11:42 PM
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single stage isn't all that bad, the body shop I work at still does some single stage jobs on cop cars, mail trucks, and big rigs. I see no reason why you need to do a clear coat system. You can tint single stage just the same way. The body shop probably doesn't want to do it because their mixing rooms probably don't have the single stage tints. Either way is fine, but yes single stage fades much faster than a uv protective clear coat. Mainly what you are seeing when you wax your car, the repainted surface has not faded in the sun. You can not tint for fading, if they repainted the entire door and didn't blend on to the adjacent panels then that is what you are seeing. The body shop who did the work should have blended, that way you wouldn't be seeing a difference in your panels.
03-13-09, 12:17 AM
#6
...i would do base and clear, i am pretty sure thats how it came from factory not 100% sure. Also might as well just get a complete respray if your going to invest money into it. Would be cheaper in the long run as going back each time only induces more labor then needed. If you go that route either method will be fine, depending on what you want i suppose. Cheap vs. Little pricey.
I'm a little tempted to repaint the entire car but to do it right that would put the car out of commission for too long, be really labor intensive, plus be super expensive. I'd want to remove all the trim, paint jambs, etc. I got a quote from a very good local shop for $7000 which is about double what the car is worth. Also the $7000 guy told me it would be a waste because the OEM paint is still so nice, and I agree.
03-13-09, 12:49 AM
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There have been a few threads, most of them very old, discussing which FCs came from the factory with clearcoat finishes. Seems like the consensus is that hardly any did, except some of the metallics. I think the "high-reflex" finishes on the 'Verts may also have had clearcoats, but not sure. I am very sure my car has its original paint on 70% of the body and it is definitely single stage. The towel gets black when I polish it with hardly any pressure.
I'm a little tempted to repaint the entire car but to do it right that would put the car out of commission for too long, be really labor intensive, plus be super expensive. I'd want to remove all the trim, paint jambs, etc. I got a quote from a very good local shop for $7000 which is about double what the car is worth. Also the $7000 guy told me it would be a waste because the OEM paint is still so nice, and I agree.
I'm a little tempted to repaint the entire car but to do it right that would put the car out of commission for too long, be really labor intensive, plus be super expensive. I'd want to remove all the trim, paint jambs, etc. I got a quote from a very good local shop for $7000 which is about double what the car is worth. Also the $7000 guy told me it would be a waste because the OEM paint is still so nice, and I agree.
03-13-09, 01:05 AM
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I prepped and painted my car with a friend, we used single stage Mazda dark titanium gray from the new Mazda3's. It turned out pretty good, especially considering the low price, but if I could go back I would do a base/clear job.
The single stage is just too flat and I have been told I can't do a buff and cut due to the lack of clear coat. I don't know much about paint so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm surprised to hear that many of the factory paint jobs were single stage. I always assumed them to be a base clear. Maybe we just did mine wrong or my lack of follow up work has led to the conditions I have found. Good luck.
The single stage is just too flat and I have been told I can't do a buff and cut due to the lack of clear coat. I don't know much about paint so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm surprised to hear that many of the factory paint jobs were single stage. I always assumed them to be a base clear. Maybe we just did mine wrong or my lack of follow up work has led to the conditions I have found. Good luck.
03-13-09, 08:50 AM
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I prepped and painted my car with a friend, we used single stage Mazda dark titanium gray from the new Mazda3's. It turned out pretty good, especially considering the low price, but if I could go back I would do a base/clear job.
The single stage is just too flat and I have been told I can't do a buff and cut due to the lack of clear coat. I don't know much about paint so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm surprised to hear that many of the factory paint jobs were single stage. I always assumed them to be a base clear. Maybe we just did mine wrong or my lack of follow up work has led to the conditions I have found. Good luck.
The single stage is just too flat and I have been told I can't do a buff and cut due to the lack of clear coat. I don't know much about paint so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm surprised to hear that many of the factory paint jobs were single stage. I always assumed them to be a base clear. Maybe we just did mine wrong or my lack of follow up work has led to the conditions I have found. Good luck.
03-13-09, 09:42 AM
#11
but you cant cut and buff a single stage mettalic that was not clear coated, you will shift the mettalics.
Why on earth anyone would not clear a mettalic is beyond me?
Non mettalic FCs came with single stage, I have lost count how many I have owned, but the only clearcoated one was a mettalic one I had, I have owned 3 verts- all black- and all single stage.
My car is single stage, the paint is over 10 years old and it still takes first place when it goes to car shows. You find a shop that knows how to paint and that does show cars and I bet they will tell you that for a solid color vehicle like a FC you cant beat a good quality single stage paint.
When I painted it it was my daily driver and stayed outside- I did not have a garage or tent for it, I just painted it so it would look better, not intending to make a show car out of it.
Luckily in the last few years it has been retired from daily driving and stays out of the weather.
03-13-09, 10:06 AM
#13
Thanks for the input, everybody. Rob XX 7 proves that at least 10 years ago in New York, there was someone who could put on a flawless single stage job.
Once again, does anyone know of a place in the Washington D.C. area that I should try? Thanks everybody.
Once again, does anyone know of a place in the Washington D.C. area that I should try? Thanks everybody.
03-13-09, 11:56 AM
#16
1) People still use single stage. But you have to be more specific. Single stage urethane is the only thing worth the effort, and only on a solid colour because then you can actually polish it (as mentioned)
2) You will get a better colour match with BC/CC because those are the paint lines that manufacturers put the time and money into finding variations in. There can be as many as 7-10 variations of one paint code, and a single stage line may only include 1 of them.
3) You'll never make new paint match 20 year old acrylic urethane. Never. Colour might be dead on, but it will never look the same. If that bothers you, paint the whole car.
4) Single stage urethane (at least BASF.....) has UV inhibitors in it. It *will* last as long as a BC/CC job, period. Its covered under their lifetime warranty. Again - LIFETIME - warranty. Single stage acrylic, enamel, or any variation of those will fade however. This is why I say the composition is so important. "single stage" is an extremely broad term.
5) No matter what it is, clear coat or not, whatever touches the paint will mark it. If you want to keep it nice you have to maintain it just like anything else on the car. Either that or never move it or touch it or drive it after it comes back from the paint job.
2) You will get a better colour match with BC/CC because those are the paint lines that manufacturers put the time and money into finding variations in. There can be as many as 7-10 variations of one paint code, and a single stage line may only include 1 of them.
3) You'll never make new paint match 20 year old acrylic urethane. Never. Colour might be dead on, but it will never look the same. If that bothers you, paint the whole car.
4) Single stage urethane (at least BASF.....) has UV inhibitors in it. It *will* last as long as a BC/CC job, period. Its covered under their lifetime warranty. Again - LIFETIME - warranty. Single stage acrylic, enamel, or any variation of those will fade however. This is why I say the composition is so important. "single stage" is an extremely broad term.
5) No matter what it is, clear coat or not, whatever touches the paint will mark it. If you want to keep it nice you have to maintain it just like anything else on the car. Either that or never move it or touch it or drive it after it comes back from the paint job.
03-14-09, 01:10 AM
#17
Passing life by
1) People still use single stage. But you have to be more specific. Single stage urethane is the only thing worth the effort, and only on a solid colour because then you can actually polish it (as mentioned)
2) You will get a better colour match with BC/CC because those are the paint lines that manufacturers put the time and money into finding variations in. There can be as many as 7-10 variations of one paint code, and a single stage line may only include 1 of them.
3) You'll never make new paint match 20 year old acrylic urethane. Never. Colour might be dead on, but it will never look the same. If that bothers you, paint the whole car.
4) Single stage urethane (at least BASF.....) has UV inhibitors in it. It *will* last as long as a BC/CC job, period. Its covered under their lifetime warranty. Again - LIFETIME - warranty. Single stage acrylic, enamel, or any variation of those will fade however. This is why I say the composition is so important. "single stage" is an extremely broad term.
5) No matter what it is, clear coat or not, whatever touches the paint will mark it. If you want to keep it nice you have to maintain it just like anything else on the car. Either that or never move it or touch it or drive it after it comes back from the paint job.
2) You will get a better colour match with BC/CC because those are the paint lines that manufacturers put the time and money into finding variations in. There can be as many as 7-10 variations of one paint code, and a single stage line may only include 1 of them.
3) You'll never make new paint match 20 year old acrylic urethane. Never. Colour might be dead on, but it will never look the same. If that bothers you, paint the whole car.
4) Single stage urethane (at least BASF.....) has UV inhibitors in it. It *will* last as long as a BC/CC job, period. Its covered under their lifetime warranty. Again - LIFETIME - warranty. Single stage acrylic, enamel, or any variation of those will fade however. This is why I say the composition is so important. "single stage" is an extremely broad term.
5) No matter what it is, clear coat or not, whatever touches the paint will mark it. If you want to keep it nice you have to maintain it just like anything else on the car. Either that or never move it or touch it or drive it after it comes back from the paint job.
03-14-09, 03:28 PM
#19
Don't worry. I'm not gonna attempt a rattle can repaint on my car. I've had it now for over two years and I still haven't found a shop I'm really 100% comfortable with. More likely I'll continue to wait until I actually need to have the whole car painted if I don't find someone good in the meantime.
03-14-09, 06:47 PM
#21
Depending on the lighting, the doors look significantly yellower than the rest of the car. Also, there are a couple spots where small dings were filled and they are fairly visible depending on the angle. In the attached photos taken by the second owner, you can see the doors look darker than the rest of the car. In person, they actually look yellow.
The worst is actually the passenger side rear fender. The car must once have had a tape stripe which has since been removed. When they painted that fender, they painted below the tape stripe and down to the black moldings. Then for some unknown reason, they removed the tape stripe so now there is a hard-edged paint seam on only that fender which is just now beginning to flake a little at the top. Still not horribly noticeable, but my eye constantly goes there...
I'll probably end up getting some work done temporarily. I suspect the rest of the car has another good 10 years or so before it will really need paint.
The worst is actually the passenger side rear fender. The car must once have had a tape stripe which has since been removed. When they painted that fender, they painted below the tape stripe and down to the black moldings. Then for some unknown reason, they removed the tape stripe so now there is a hard-edged paint seam on only that fender which is just now beginning to flake a little at the top. Still not horribly noticeable, but my eye constantly goes there...
I'll probably end up getting some work done temporarily. I suspect the rest of the car has another good 10 years or so before it will really need paint.
03-15-09, 09:44 AM
#23
it could be that the wrong black was used, I had a "discussion" with someone here a while back about how there were tons of shades of black- and he told me there was one and how his body shop only uses one and no one notices- nice advertisement for that shop eh?
OR it could be that they used BC/CC, and if they used a lesser quality clear it could have now yellowed.
The fact that there was tape pinstripe on the car and the car was painted to that stripe its a good chance the car had been on a used car lot or gone through a auction at one time. Pinstripes were a cheap way they would dress cars up to make them look more appealing AND in perhaps in this case it gave them a easier way to repaint the quarter panel without blending up onto the roof. Later on in the car's life someone went to remove the pinstripe and was left with a hard paint line.
Shame about the door dings, years ago they would fill them, now the paintless dent guy's should get called before a car is getting a full repaint- they can save alot of bodywork with the magic they can do.
OR it could be that they used BC/CC, and if they used a lesser quality clear it could have now yellowed.
The fact that there was tape pinstripe on the car and the car was painted to that stripe its a good chance the car had been on a used car lot or gone through a auction at one time. Pinstripes were a cheap way they would dress cars up to make them look more appealing AND in perhaps in this case it gave them a easier way to repaint the quarter panel without blending up onto the roof. Later on in the car's life someone went to remove the pinstripe and was left with a hard paint line.
Shame about the door dings, years ago they would fill them, now the paintless dent guy's should get called before a car is getting a full repaint- they can save alot of bodywork with the magic they can do.
03-15-09, 10:37 AM
#24
The history I have on the car is limited. According to Carfax, the original owner kept it until 2004 when he sold it to a Mazda/Infiniti dealer in Florida. The second owner told me he bought the car from that same dealer when he and his wife went to check out the new RX-8. They kept the car until 2007 when I bought it. I guess it is possible that there was an auction in there someplace; I don't know.
Regarding tape stripes, agreed that is a popular way for a used car lot to "dress up" an offering, but it was also quite popular with Mazda dealers, at least in Pennsylvania, in the 1980s. My family bought three Mazdas from two different dealerships back then, and two of them came with those horrible tape stripes. My mom thought they improved the look of her MX-6 which I think was a common belief back then (though never with me).
I'd love to know why the first owner removed the "GTU" and "Mazda" decals as well. There is really no evidence they were ever there. I'm very sure the paint on the front bumper and fenders is original judging from the total lack of overspray, lack of evidence of tape lines inside the fenders, and intact paint on all the fender bolt heads.
I've been a paintless dent disciple now for many years myself.
Regarding tape stripes, agreed that is a popular way for a used car lot to "dress up" an offering, but it was also quite popular with Mazda dealers, at least in Pennsylvania, in the 1980s. My family bought three Mazdas from two different dealerships back then, and two of them came with those horrible tape stripes. My mom thought they improved the look of her MX-6 which I think was a common belief back then (though never with me).
I'd love to know why the first owner removed the "GTU" and "Mazda" decals as well. There is really no evidence they were ever there. I'm very sure the paint on the front bumper and fenders is original judging from the total lack of overspray, lack of evidence of tape lines inside the fenders, and intact paint on all the fender bolt heads.
I've been a paintless dent disciple now for many years myself.
03-15-09, 11:35 AM
#25
MECP Certified Installer
There have been a few threads, most of them very old, discussing which FCs came from the factory with clearcoat finishes. Seems like the consensus is that hardly any did, except some of the metallics. I think the "high-reflex" finishes on the 'Verts may also have had clearcoats, but not sure. I am very sure my car has its original paint on 70% of the body and it is definitely single stage. The towel gets black when I polish it with hardly any pressure.
I'm a little tempted to repaint the entire car but to do it right that would put the car out of commission for too long, be really labor intensive, plus be super expensive. I'd want to remove all the trim, paint jambs, etc. I got a quote from a very good local shop for $7000 which is about double what the car is worth. Also the $7000 guy told me it would be a waste because the OEM paint is still so nice, and I agree.
I'm a little tempted to repaint the entire car but to do it right that would put the car out of commission for too long, be really labor intensive, plus be super expensive. I'd want to remove all the trim, paint jambs, etc. I got a quote from a very good local shop for $7000 which is about double what the car is worth. Also the $7000 guy told me it would be a waste because the OEM paint is still so nice, and I agree.
Last edited by jjwalker; 03-15-09 at 11:48 AM.