Champagne Test (Coolant Seal)
11-28-08, 12:25 PM
#1
Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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Champagne Test (Coolant Seal)
So I'm fearing the worst for my '86.
Started losing coolant at the beginning of the week. I didn't think much of it at first, with weather changing and all. I topped it off, using the bleeder screw. All was fine until the next day, when i had to top it off again. I checked for leaks, yet wasn't seeing anything on the ground..
So after 3 days of hearing the buzzer and topping it off I finally found where the coolant's going; into the reservoir. It had finally pushed enough coolant out to overflow the tank.
I was thinking possible coolant seal failure, but I didn't get any other symptoms (white smoke, loss of power, sweet smelling exhaust) besides the pressurizing of the system.
I was hoping that a new radiator cap would solve my issue seeing how it hasn't been changed while in my possession, and most likely not too recent with the P.O. I did that this morning and thought it was alright. I was wrong.
So I try searching on how to do this 'Champagne Test', not really seeing a clear cut answer. Can anyone lead me in the right direction? I figured this would benefit people in the future trying to find the answer like I am now.
Thanks.
P.S.: If anyone in the upstate of SC has a known good motor (as in not needing a rebuild) and wants to part with it, shoot me a PM.
Started losing coolant at the beginning of the week. I didn't think much of it at first, with weather changing and all. I topped it off, using the bleeder screw. All was fine until the next day, when i had to top it off again. I checked for leaks, yet wasn't seeing anything on the ground..
So after 3 days of hearing the buzzer and topping it off I finally found where the coolant's going; into the reservoir. It had finally pushed enough coolant out to overflow the tank.
I was thinking possible coolant seal failure, but I didn't get any other symptoms (white smoke, loss of power, sweet smelling exhaust) besides the pressurizing of the system.
I was hoping that a new radiator cap would solve my issue seeing how it hasn't been changed while in my possession, and most likely not too recent with the P.O. I did that this morning and thought it was alright. I was wrong.
So I try searching on how to do this 'Champagne Test', not really seeing a clear cut answer. Can anyone lead me in the right direction? I figured this would benefit people in the future trying to find the answer like I am now.
Thanks.
P.S.: If anyone in the upstate of SC has a known good motor (as in not needing a rebuild) and wants to part with it, shoot me a PM.
11-28-08, 02:03 PM
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Engine, Not Motor
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With the car stone cold, pull the coolant filler cap. Start the car. Do you see a steady stream of bubbles coming up in the coolant? If so, that's a bad sign.
Rev the engine a bit by grabbing the lever at the throttle body. When you rev, do the bubbles increase or does coolant come gushing out? If so, that's a really bad sign.
Rev the engine a bit by grabbing the lever at the throttle body. When you rev, do the bubbles increase or does coolant come gushing out? If so, that's a really bad sign.
11-28-08, 02:08 PM
#3
Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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when it's cold i don't see any. but once the car comes to operating temp I do get a steady pulse of bubbles it seems.. was also just outside and noticed that it seems water is working it's way through the exhaust, there's some on the tailpipe.. couldn't happen at a worse time. Well maybe, but dammit.
11-28-08, 08:42 PM
#4
when it's cold i don't see any. but once the car comes to operating temp I do get a steady pulse of bubbles it seems.. was also just outside and noticed that it seems water is working it's way through the exhaust, there's some on the tailpipe.. couldn't happen at a worse time. Well maybe, but dammit.
You didn't see bubbles when it was cold. That's good!
The water in your tailpipe is condensation because you are having cool weather. That's Normal!
Here is your problem: The coolant is retained in the overflow because you have a small leak somewhere in the cooling system. This small leak is keeping the coolant from completely returning to the radiator from the overflow. It can be caused by a bad cap. It might be caused by a pinhole leak in the tube from the rad neck to the overflow. It might be happening at an imperfectly sealed gasket.
Do a cooling system pressure test and you will likely find the leak. Keep looking because probably don't have a bad engine. Getting a rebuild now is like having a heart bypass t because you cut your finger.
Here is a quote from my post on this topic. It thoroughly explains the problem
This problem can and does happen with non rotaries, but for some reason our rotaries seem to have a high incedence of this trouble.
Get the pressure test. If it passes, get a new MAZDA radiator cap.
Before you start to rebuild the engine, try everything else first.
Does the coolant expand into the tank as the engine warms up? Then does it correctly pull back into the radiator when the engine cools? You can have a vacuum leak between the cap and the overflow tube that allows air to be sucked into the radiator when the engine cools. Then some of the coolant stays in the overflow. Next time you run the car the process repeats.. Eventually you are low on coolant. At this point when you run the car, the hot air and steam is bubbling into the tank and the car acts exactly like it has a blown coolant seal, only it doesn't. At this moment, you will be in very great danger of overheating your engine.
I had this exact problem with my 90 Vert N/A. I tested everything, compression, cooling system pressure test. I replaced my rad cap, my tstat with oem. The problem still existed. When the overflow tank got full or when the low coolant buzzer went off, I poured the overflow tank back into the radiator. I found I wasn't losing coolant, just moving it one-way into the overflow tank. I didn't know to test the overflow tube for a leak, so I lived with it like this for months. I then eventually changed the cooling system over to Evans NPG+ and went the nonpressurized route. It works great for me, but I don't recommend it for anyone unless they have thoroughly sorted out the cooling system and are very sure that EVERTYTHING is in perfect operating order.
Good luck.
Before you start to rebuild the engine, try everything else first.
Does the coolant expand into the tank as the engine warms up? Then does it correctly pull back into the radiator when the engine cools? You can have a vacuum leak between the cap and the overflow tube that allows air to be sucked into the radiator when the engine cools. Then some of the coolant stays in the overflow. Next time you run the car the process repeats.. Eventually you are low on coolant. At this point when you run the car, the hot air and steam is bubbling into the tank and the car acts exactly like it has a blown coolant seal, only it doesn't. At this moment, you will be in very great danger of overheating your engine.
I had this exact problem with my 90 Vert N/A. I tested everything, compression, cooling system pressure test. I replaced my rad cap, my tstat with oem. The problem still existed. When the overflow tank got full or when the low coolant buzzer went off, I poured the overflow tank back into the radiator. I found I wasn't losing coolant, just moving it one-way into the overflow tank. I didn't know to test the overflow tube for a leak, so I lived with it like this for months. I then eventually changed the cooling system over to Evans NPG+ and went the nonpressurized route. It works great for me, but I don't recommend it for anyone unless they have thoroughly sorted out the cooling system and are very sure that EVERTYTHING is in perfect operating order.
Good luck.
11-28-08, 09:54 PM
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combustion engines makes 2 things, carbon monoxide and h2O. So no worries about the water coming form your tail pipe.
this is from wikipedia
Internal combustion engines such as reciprocating internal combustion engines produce air pollution emissions, due to incomplete combustion of carbonaceous fuel. The main derivatives of the process are carbon dioxide CO2, water and some soot—also called particulate matter (PM). The effects of inhaling particulate matter have been studied in humans and animals and include asthma, lung cancer, cardiovascular issues, and premature death. There are however some additional products of the combustion process that include nitrogen oxides and sulfur and some uncombusted hydrocarbons, depending on the operating conditions and the fuel-air ratio.
this is from wikipedia
Internal combustion engines such as reciprocating internal combustion engines produce air pollution emissions, due to incomplete combustion of carbonaceous fuel. The main derivatives of the process are carbon dioxide CO2, water and some soot—also called particulate matter (PM). The effects of inhaling particulate matter have been studied in humans and animals and include asthma, lung cancer, cardiovascular issues, and premature death. There are however some additional products of the combustion process that include nitrogen oxides and sulfur and some uncombusted hydrocarbons, depending on the operating conditions and the fuel-air ratio.
11-29-08, 12:52 PM
#7
Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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Okay so I might've jumped the gun. I've had back luck with cars dying this time of year, heh.
So I went to advance auto and borrowed a pressure tester. I must say that their pressure tester blows the one autozone has out of the water. autozone had one puny adapter.. advance has 16.
Anywho, I stuck the adapter on and pumped up to 13psi. It's been 10 minutes, and it hasn't budged from 13psi.
So now my next question is this. Could the thermostat be screwed up causing the system to build too much pressure and spit it out the reservoir? I'm typing this then heading to the dealership to pick up a MAZDA cap and thermostat. I'm hoping this fixes my issue.
So I went to advance auto and borrowed a pressure tester. I must say that their pressure tester blows the one autozone has out of the water. autozone had one puny adapter.. advance has 16.
Anywho, I stuck the adapter on and pumped up to 13psi. It's been 10 minutes, and it hasn't budged from 13psi.
So now my next question is this. Could the thermostat be screwed up causing the system to build too much pressure and spit it out the reservoir? I'm typing this then heading to the dealership to pick up a MAZDA cap and thermostat. I'm hoping this fixes my issue.
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11-29-08, 01:41 PM
#8
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Like the previous poster said...
When coolant is not being sucked out of the recovery tank after the engine cools off, it is usually one of two things.
The radiator cap, or a pinhole in the coolant recovery line.
When coolant is not being sucked out of the recovery tank after the engine cools off, it is usually one of two things.
The radiator cap, or a pinhole in the coolant recovery line.
11-29-08, 04:40 PM
#9
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I have a similiar problem.
If I fill up my radiator to the top and than start the car...
At both cold and warmed up. I see no bubbles.
After driving for a few minutes...
The overflow starts to overflow
Than after a few hours...
The overflow is empty and so is the radiator. I have to refill the radiator with about 20 fl oz of 50/50.
The exhaust smells very sweet. I assume the motor is burning coolant, is the only cause of this a blown coolant seal? That's around the water jacket on a housing right?
Thanks!
If I fill up my radiator to the top and than start the car...
At both cold and warmed up. I see no bubbles.
After driving for a few minutes...
The overflow starts to overflow
Than after a few hours...
The overflow is empty and so is the radiator. I have to refill the radiator with about 20 fl oz of 50/50.
The exhaust smells very sweet. I assume the motor is burning coolant, is the only cause of this a blown coolant seal? That's around the water jacket on a housing right?
Thanks!
11-29-08, 05:14 PM
#10
Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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Well I forgot today was Saturday, and the parts desk closed at 12. I did go and buy new hose to go from the filler neck to the overflow. put it on, topped off fluid and put an autozone cap on for now (not stant, pressure tested it before i put it on, held 14# just fine). I drove around for a while trying to get the buzzer to go off, never did. It was pushing into the reservoir but never overflowed. Will update as I'll be doing more driving tomorrow.
11-29-08, 06:44 PM
#11
The mystery of the prize.
Replace the pressure relief cap, the description sounds like the cap is letting pressure out but not letting coolant suck back in on cooldown.
When the cap fails like this you get the reservoir slowly filling with coolant over time, you keep adding back to the system but normal use expands and overflows into the overflow tank... until the overflow tank itself overfills.
The fact that you are adding coolant and the overflow tank level is rising over time pretty much shows that you're probably not losing coolant, it's just being displaced into the overflow tank on a one-way circuit.
When the cap fails like this you get the reservoir slowly filling with coolant over time, you keep adding back to the system but normal use expands and overflows into the overflow tank... until the overflow tank itself overfills.
The fact that you are adding coolant and the overflow tank level is rising over time pretty much shows that you're probably not losing coolant, it's just being displaced into the overflow tank on a one-way circuit.
11-29-08, 07:35 PM
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I've been having the same exact issue for a week or two on my NA S5 and a buddy of mine opened up the oil cap when the car was cool, stuck his finger in, and pulled out a little bit of yellowish goo!! He told me my water seals must be going bad, which would explain why my buzzer keeps going off and why I have to keep adding water. That's what happened to his S4 track car and his is in worse condition.
So try that trick out too. We just tried this today, and he's a pretty smart guy but I just want to double check and see what you guys (mods included) think?
So try that trick out too. We just tried this today, and he's a pretty smart guy but I just want to double check and see what you guys (mods included) think?
11-29-08, 07:47 PM
#13
Smoke moar
uhm, we were running too thin oil if I remember right, not the 10w50 or whatever we are told to run.
Oil pressure was low and coolent was filling the over fill, still original rad cap n all hoses on the car are all original :P changed oil to 10w50 and coolent seems to be fine for the past 2 years and proper oil pressure now.
might just be your prob, doubt it tho
Oil pressure was low and coolent was filling the over fill, still original rad cap n all hoses on the car are all original :P changed oil to 10w50 and coolent seems to be fine for the past 2 years and proper oil pressure now.
might just be your prob, doubt it tho
11-29-08, 08:51 PM
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Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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well that is kinda weird... I normally use 10w30-40, but i got lazy and took it to a shop to let them change it.. they put in 5w20. Perhaps coincidence, i'll be going back to 10w40 tomorrow though.
Driven, your car sounds like it's not venting properly. I had 'lung mustard' on my 1st gen when i took off the rats nest. did you remove emissions on yours?
Back to topic, thanks for all input so far. I'll post back with anything new when it happens.
Driven, your car sounds like it's not venting properly. I had 'lung mustard' on my 1st gen when i took off the rats nest. did you remove emissions on yours?
Back to topic, thanks for all input so far. I'll post back with anything new when it happens.
11-29-08, 11:53 PM
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And the rat's nest is still there because I want to restore my car so that I can pass emissions again. We don't have them here, but I should be moving up north in about 2 years (probably North Carolina)
11-30-08, 10:40 AM
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Engine, Not Motor
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OK, this thread is all over the place now...
For those who suspect they are loosing coolant, there is one sure way to tell. Rent a cooling system pressure tester. Remove the leading spark plugs. Fill the cooling system and pressurized with the tester. Leave it like this overnight and observe the gauge in the morning. Any change indicates there is a leak somewhere. If there is a significant difference, slowly rotate the engine and check the spark plugs for coolant (this will be hard to see).
If you do this in combination witha dye kit, you can find any leak very easily.
For those who suspect they are loosing coolant, there is one sure way to tell. Rent a cooling system pressure tester. Remove the leading spark plugs. Fill the cooling system and pressurized with the tester. Leave it like this overnight and observe the gauge in the morning. Any change indicates there is a leak somewhere. If there is a significant difference, slowly rotate the engine and check the spark plugs for coolant (this will be hard to see).
If you do this in combination witha dye kit, you can find any leak very easily.
11-30-08, 01:39 PM
#19
The mystery of the prize.
Damn I just reread the OP and sounds like you already replaced the ralief cap, sorry about that.
A coolant pressure test that passes can still be inconclusive because pressure might not leak out of the coolant system without combustion pressures being present in the combustion chambers. The coolant system experiences ~20psi, which is a far cry from combustion pressures.
Your best bet is to test your coolant for presence of combustion byproducts with something like the tool documented here:
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/hea..._leak_test.htm
A coolant pressure test that passes can still be inconclusive because pressure might not leak out of the coolant system without combustion pressures being present in the combustion chambers. The coolant system experiences ~20psi, which is a far cry from combustion pressures.
Your best bet is to test your coolant for presence of combustion byproducts with something like the tool documented here:
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/hea..._leak_test.htm
12-01-08, 01:23 PM
#20
Blew my 3rd one 12/8/08
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Well thanks for all the replies but I've found the answer I didn't want to hear.
I took it to the shop and had a hydrocarbon test run on it today. As soon as they crunk it up they got the positive.
So it's a blown coolant seal.
So... if ya have a good running motor in the upstate SC you're looking to part with... PM me. if nothing soon this will be in the FS section.
Thanks again.
I took it to the shop and had a hydrocarbon test run on it today. As soon as they crunk it up they got the positive.
So it's a blown coolant seal.
So... if ya have a good running motor in the upstate SC you're looking to part with... PM me. if nothing soon this will be in the FS section.
Thanks again.
03-30-10, 11:06 PM
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With the car stone cold, pull the coolant filler cap. Start the car. Do you see a steady stream of bubbles coming up in the coolant? If so, that's a bad sign.
Rev the engine a bit by grabbing the lever at the throttle body. When you rev, do the bubbles increase or does coolant come gushing out? If so, that's a really bad sign.
Rev the engine a bit by grabbing the lever at the throttle body. When you rev, do the bubbles increase or does coolant come gushing out? If so, that's a really bad sign.
04-01-10, 10:47 AM
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[QUOTE=Go48;9905028]Normal.[/QUOTE
Thanks, I have one more if you're up for it. i think i have air in my system. its been running hot plus no heat at heater sometimes. When the heater starts working again the car cools back down. Poor circulation or air pocket?
Thanks, I have one more if you're up for it. i think i have air in my system. its been running hot plus no heat at heater sometimes. When the heater starts working again the car cools back down. Poor circulation or air pocket?
04-01-10, 12:40 PM
#24
MECP Certified Installer
I have a blown coolant seal on the exhausting side of the housing, so my car doesn't burn coolant, and it actually doesn't bubble when cold, only when warm.
I had a feeling I had a coolant leak because exhaust gas was coming out of the overflow tube when the car was warm. I could put my finger over the tube and it would pressurize, when I'd take my finger off, I could smell exhaust. Not mention my coolant smelled of fuel.
Just to be sure, I paid RP $130 to double check for me. They pressurized the system, then stuck a bore scope down into the housings. With the coolant pressurized, I was getting tear drops of coolant into my front rotor housing. They also tested the compression for me and my seals are worn way the hell out. Averaging all of the rotor faces front and rear, it comes out to about 70psi average.
Anyway, point of the story is, just because it doesn't do it when cold, doesn't mean it isn't blown.
I had a feeling I had a coolant leak because exhaust gas was coming out of the overflow tube when the car was warm. I could put my finger over the tube and it would pressurize, when I'd take my finger off, I could smell exhaust. Not mention my coolant smelled of fuel.
Just to be sure, I paid RP $130 to double check for me. They pressurized the system, then stuck a bore scope down into the housings. With the coolant pressurized, I was getting tear drops of coolant into my front rotor housing. They also tested the compression for me and my seals are worn way the hell out. Averaging all of the rotor faces front and rear, it comes out to about 70psi average.
Anyway, point of the story is, just because it doesn't do it when cold, doesn't mean it isn't blown.
04-01-10, 10:48 PM
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Well it didn't smell like exhaust on the overflow tube, thank god. I just have a pressure problem i think... must research more
There's air bubbling in the reservoir...
There's air bubbling in the reservoir...
Last edited by Jake57; 04-01-10 at 10:50 PM.