can you install a line-lock system??? how hard??
09-22-04, 05:52 PM
#1
can you install a line-lock system??? how hard??
ill admit it.... im not very good at power braking..... so, would it be feesable to add a line-lock system on my t2???? i love burnouts, and i know old schoolers use it!!! i dont even know where to begin w/ the install....... how does it work????? yes, im a noob on this subject... and please dont flame me for the question!!
09-22-04, 07:18 PM
#2
I wish I was driving!
Welcome to Sean Cathcart's School of Roll Control!
Line-Lock/ Roll control: What's the diff, yo?
Line lock is actually a specific brand of a product known as roll control, just as kleenex is a specific brand of facial tissue, and Posi-traction is a specific brand of limited slip differential.
What does Roll control do, word y'all?
Roll control allows a driver to engage one system of brakes, either front or rear, while leaving the opposite brakes with zero pressure. In an front-wheel drive car, you want attempt to use it to engage the rear brakes, and on a rear-wheel drive car, you would attempt to use it to engage the front brakes.
How does Roll control work, G?
An automotive braking system is a simple hydraulic system. When you step on the brakes, a small piston pushes hydraulic brake fluid through the brake lines to your brake calipers, which transfer this force to push the brake pad onto the rotor. When you let off the brakes, this pressure is released.
When we want to keep a set of brakes on, we need to prevent the pressure from being bled out after you let off the brakes, so we install roll control. All these things are is a simple hydraulic locking solenoid that operates on 12VDC and has internal seals capable of supporting brake fluid.
Usually, the driver steps on the brake pedal , pushes and holds a button to engage the roll-control, and then lets off the brake pedal, locking on the desired set of brakes.
Why would someone want their brakes locked on, funky SC?
there's a couple reasons for this.
- For burnouts. By leaving the front brakes locked on and the rear brakes off, the car will stay motionless during a RWD burnout. As opposed to a brakestand, where the driver steps on the gas and the brakes at the same time, roll control will not damper power transferred to the pavement, nor will it lessen rear brake pad life.
- Even better, for consistent launches in a manual transmission car. Engaging roll control allows the driver to use one foot to moderate gas and one foot to moderate clutch, and allows the driver to preload the chassis all the way to pavement-to-rubber contact. Typically, without having to heel-toe on launch, the driver can more easily moderate the gas and clutch for the most consitent, fast launch, and with preloading, avoid damage to the drivetrain.
How do I install line-lock on my second genizzle?
I'll split this into two groups: ABS and Non-ABS.
NON-ABS:
Non-ABS RX-7's have a somewhat odd, braking system, in which the brake master cylinder has three hydraulic lines coming off of it. One of these lines feeds the rear of the car, which is then split to feed both rear calipers. Each of the other two lines feed their own brake caliper.... Now this is odd in that most cars simply have two brake lines attached to their master cylinder, one for the front, and one for the rear, and then splitters installed later in the line... This dual-front hydraulic line makes line-lock installation a bit trickier than their counterparts, but hey: at least its not split-diagonal braking, right?
So since your typically brand of roll control locks one hydraulic line, we have a problem: How do we lock two lines with only one input and output? There are 5 solutions to this:
1. Custom retrofit a brake master cylinder from another car which uses one hydraulic line for the front, and one for the rear, each and then add hydraulic splitters.
2. Install 2 roll control solenoids on each of the front brake lines and wire them together.
3. Take the two front lines off of the master cylinder and tee them together. Install the roll control solenoid at the tee, and then run a new brake-line to one of the master cylinder holes, and plug the other hole.
4. Same as above, but split the hydraulic lines again before the roll control solenoid and run new lines into each of the master cylinder holes.
5. Use HURST brand roll control. HURST is the only brand with dual inputs and dual outputs which does not combine the two hydraulic feeds.
Review of the above systems:
1. Pain in the ***. Requires a lot of custom work, including much brake line fabbing. Only reason this would be worth it is if you were upgrading to a larger bore master cylinder.
One exception to this is to use an ABS-equipped RX-7 brake master cylinder, which uses two master cylinder outputs, and then fabricate your own brake lines. This is a bit easier since it bolts on.
2. Pretty easy. Requires the least hydraulic line work by simply installing in-line in each line by cutting out a section, attaching the fittings, and putting the solenoids in place.
3. I said it was possible, but not smart. This would be the cheapest way, and definitely the crappiest.
4. Pretty much the same as number 4.
5. Decently easy. Makes for a cleaner engine bay and generally cheaper than #2, but unlike #2, requires bending and flaring of your own new brake lines.
ABS cars:
ABS sucks on these cars to begin with, so remove it... failing that:
The master cylinders on the ABS-equipped cars have two hydraulic fittings (one for front brakes and one for rear), which makes things a little easier, but the problem is that if the wheel speed sensor sense that the front wheels are not turning and the rear wheels are spinning, it will engage the ABS-system.
To overcome this problem, wire in a relay to cut power to the ABS system whenever the roll control is engaged. Herein lies its own problem though: this will trigger the "ABS system" dummy light and leave ABS disengaged until the car is turned off and restarted.
Other common questions:
- I'm curious about this launch stuff... will roll control actually make me launch better?
Not better, but more consistant. With practice, its easy to hit a perfect launch every time with roll control, whereas it is kind of hit and miss without it. The addition of a brake pressure gauge (ever wondered why they made these?) will also help in fine-tuning your launches for consistency.
I love the use of roll-control for launching: I found I could get much better 60 foot times with it. I specifically use Hurst brand roll control.
- Why would a front wheel drive car ever use roll control? Why not just use the e-brake?
The parking brake does not allow the fine-tuning of applied pressure to the rear brakes, nor does it allow as great a pressure to be applied.
- Dude, sweet! Now I can install a switch to my 12V constant and use this as my parking brake and get rid of that god-awful handle, right?
No. Roll control is not intended to replace a manual parking system for a couple reasons:
- Most have a 10% duty cycle, in which they can remain in use for one minute and then need to cool for 9 minutes. Leaving one on would likely cause it to overheat and fail, and disengage the parking brake.
- Failure of the cars battery would disengage the parking brake.
- Can I hit the line-lock button to lock the front brake line, then step on the brakes to apply pressure only to the rear tires to lock the rear tires to begina drift?
Sure... but a quick yank on the manual parking lever is always faster and easier.
Hope this answers all of everyone's questions. Lemme know if you need clarification.
Line-Lock/ Roll control: What's the diff, yo?
Line lock is actually a specific brand of a product known as roll control, just as kleenex is a specific brand of facial tissue, and Posi-traction is a specific brand of limited slip differential.
What does Roll control do, word y'all?
Roll control allows a driver to engage one system of brakes, either front or rear, while leaving the opposite brakes with zero pressure. In an front-wheel drive car, you want attempt to use it to engage the rear brakes, and on a rear-wheel drive car, you would attempt to use it to engage the front brakes.
How does Roll control work, G?
An automotive braking system is a simple hydraulic system. When you step on the brakes, a small piston pushes hydraulic brake fluid through the brake lines to your brake calipers, which transfer this force to push the brake pad onto the rotor. When you let off the brakes, this pressure is released.
When we want to keep a set of brakes on, we need to prevent the pressure from being bled out after you let off the brakes, so we install roll control. All these things are is a simple hydraulic locking solenoid that operates on 12VDC and has internal seals capable of supporting brake fluid.
Usually, the driver steps on the brake pedal , pushes and holds a button to engage the roll-control, and then lets off the brake pedal, locking on the desired set of brakes.
Why would someone want their brakes locked on, funky SC?
there's a couple reasons for this.
- For burnouts. By leaving the front brakes locked on and the rear brakes off, the car will stay motionless during a RWD burnout. As opposed to a brakestand, where the driver steps on the gas and the brakes at the same time, roll control will not damper power transferred to the pavement, nor will it lessen rear brake pad life.
- Even better, for consistent launches in a manual transmission car. Engaging roll control allows the driver to use one foot to moderate gas and one foot to moderate clutch, and allows the driver to preload the chassis all the way to pavement-to-rubber contact. Typically, without having to heel-toe on launch, the driver can more easily moderate the gas and clutch for the most consitent, fast launch, and with preloading, avoid damage to the drivetrain.
How do I install line-lock on my second genizzle?
I'll split this into two groups: ABS and Non-ABS.
NON-ABS:
Non-ABS RX-7's have a somewhat odd, braking system, in which the brake master cylinder has three hydraulic lines coming off of it. One of these lines feeds the rear of the car, which is then split to feed both rear calipers. Each of the other two lines feed their own brake caliper.... Now this is odd in that most cars simply have two brake lines attached to their master cylinder, one for the front, and one for the rear, and then splitters installed later in the line... This dual-front hydraulic line makes line-lock installation a bit trickier than their counterparts, but hey: at least its not split-diagonal braking, right?
So since your typically brand of roll control locks one hydraulic line, we have a problem: How do we lock two lines with only one input and output? There are 5 solutions to this:
1. Custom retrofit a brake master cylinder from another car which uses one hydraulic line for the front, and one for the rear, each and then add hydraulic splitters.
2. Install 2 roll control solenoids on each of the front brake lines and wire them together.
3. Take the two front lines off of the master cylinder and tee them together. Install the roll control solenoid at the tee, and then run a new brake-line to one of the master cylinder holes, and plug the other hole.
4. Same as above, but split the hydraulic lines again before the roll control solenoid and run new lines into each of the master cylinder holes.
5. Use HURST brand roll control. HURST is the only brand with dual inputs and dual outputs which does not combine the two hydraulic feeds.
Review of the above systems:
1. Pain in the ***. Requires a lot of custom work, including much brake line fabbing. Only reason this would be worth it is if you were upgrading to a larger bore master cylinder.
One exception to this is to use an ABS-equipped RX-7 brake master cylinder, which uses two master cylinder outputs, and then fabricate your own brake lines. This is a bit easier since it bolts on.
2. Pretty easy. Requires the least hydraulic line work by simply installing in-line in each line by cutting out a section, attaching the fittings, and putting the solenoids in place.
3. I said it was possible, but not smart. This would be the cheapest way, and definitely the crappiest.
4. Pretty much the same as number 4.
5. Decently easy. Makes for a cleaner engine bay and generally cheaper than #2, but unlike #2, requires bending and flaring of your own new brake lines.
ABS cars:
ABS sucks on these cars to begin with, so remove it... failing that:
The master cylinders on the ABS-equipped cars have two hydraulic fittings (one for front brakes and one for rear), which makes things a little easier, but the problem is that if the wheel speed sensor sense that the front wheels are not turning and the rear wheels are spinning, it will engage the ABS-system.
To overcome this problem, wire in a relay to cut power to the ABS system whenever the roll control is engaged. Herein lies its own problem though: this will trigger the "ABS system" dummy light and leave ABS disengaged until the car is turned off and restarted.
Other common questions:
- I'm curious about this launch stuff... will roll control actually make me launch better?
Not better, but more consistant. With practice, its easy to hit a perfect launch every time with roll control, whereas it is kind of hit and miss without it. The addition of a brake pressure gauge (ever wondered why they made these?) will also help in fine-tuning your launches for consistency.
I love the use of roll-control for launching: I found I could get much better 60 foot times with it. I specifically use Hurst brand roll control.
- Why would a front wheel drive car ever use roll control? Why not just use the e-brake?
The parking brake does not allow the fine-tuning of applied pressure to the rear brakes, nor does it allow as great a pressure to be applied.
- Dude, sweet! Now I can install a switch to my 12V constant and use this as my parking brake and get rid of that god-awful handle, right?
No. Roll control is not intended to replace a manual parking system for a couple reasons:
- Most have a 10% duty cycle, in which they can remain in use for one minute and then need to cool for 9 minutes. Leaving one on would likely cause it to overheat and fail, and disengage the parking brake.
- Failure of the cars battery would disengage the parking brake.
- Can I hit the line-lock button to lock the front brake line, then step on the brakes to apply pressure only to the rear tires to lock the rear tires to begina drift?
Sure... but a quick yank on the manual parking lever is always faster and easier.
Hope this answers all of everyone's questions. Lemme know if you need clarification.
09-22-04, 07:22 PM
#3
I wish I was driving!
About installation:
Best left to professionals. Brake lines must be severed in an installed and new DUOBLE flares and fittings installed. Failure to do this correctly can easily cost a person their life.
That said, its not all that hard. If you can bend and make your own lines and splice a couple wires, its easy.
Best left to professionals. Brake lines must be severed in an installed and new DUOBLE flares and fittings installed. Failure to do this correctly can easily cost a person their life.
That said, its not all that hard. If you can bend and make your own lines and splice a couple wires, its easy.
09-22-04, 07:29 PM
#4
Mechanical Engineering
Originally Posted by scathcart
About installation:
Best left to professionals. Brake lines must be severed in an installed and new DUOBLE flares and fittings installed. Failure to do this correctly can easily cost a person their life.
That said, its not all that hard. If you can bend and make your own lines and splice a couple wires, its easy.
Best left to professionals. Brake lines must be severed in an installed and new DUOBLE flares and fittings installed. Failure to do this correctly can easily cost a person their life.
That said, its not all that hard. If you can bend and make your own lines and splice a couple wires, its easy.
09-22-04, 09:09 PM
#6
wow...... well, that just about sums it up........ doesnt it!!!!! holy crap, scathcart sure knows his shiznitt!!!! thanks so much for the info........ i have all the info i need, i think i can take it from here.......and again............WOW!! i have never seen someone write as much as you have!! very informative!!! i hope this gets archived just for the fact that every possible question and scenario has been answered.... plus, how to install!!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
