slitherz90gxl

I'm at work and searching this topic but I haven't found a really good thread about the pros/cons of a camden supercharger kit for the fc.
I've got a streetported engine with about 33,000 miles on it.
Just wondering if it is worth the 2,500 dollars or if the turbo is the way to go.
I'm only looking for 225-250 horsepower out of my car.

Schmitty

iTrader: (11)

This has been covered countless times. The short answer is no... it's not worth it for $2500. I've got one installed on my car and, in my opinion, the money would have been spent on a turbo setup for your power goals.

rotordogg

iTrader: (4)

If you are going the "new" route, then it is a matter of personal opinion as to the pros/cons. SC will give you immediate boost, turbo has lag time. SC does not require an intercooler and some applications make it difficult to use one even if you wanted to. Turbo is easily adjustable by changing wastegate springs, SC is usually limited to the size of the pully. Not a lot of boost choices.

The reason I mentioned the "new" route is because buying a new turbo, new intercooler, new wastegate, BOV, etc. will be pretty equal to the $2500 for a new supercharger. Depending on the quality of the products it could exceed $2500. However, turbo conversions are more prevelant because they are easier to find used parts. So if you are buying used turbos, IC's, BOV, etc it will end up costing much less than $2500.

The 250 HP range is a very safe and realistic goal and you will have no trouble reaching it with your current setup. The additional HP will stress your transmission so be prepared to replace the tranny with a TII tranny at some point.

When you streetported the engine, did you also perform the waterj acket mod? How about a higher volume oil pump? Do you have a good oil cooler? These are things to keep in mind with forced induction as the heat and stress of the added boost will tear apart a normal engine.

On that note, as I mentioned above, it is sometimes difficult to intercool a supercharger. To deter detonation at high boost levels you will need to run a water/meth injection.

The last thing to keep in mind is the efficiency of superchaging compared to turbo. The tubro creates boost from the spent exhaust gases. The SC creates boost from the engine. In other words, it takes power from the engine in order for the SC to create boost, but the turbo uses a byproduct of engine power rather than engine power itself. So a Turbo is nearly 100% efficient and the SC is usually about 70%. It's not a big deal for the HP rating you are looking to achieve, but if you decide you want to try for the 300+ range, it will be easier with a turbo than a SC.

I have been planning a supercharged build based on the Rotrax superchargers. They are more efficient than the cambden, quieter, and can be intercooled. (i don't like the idea of shooting water into my engine).

rotordad

Any roots type blower can be intercooled, seems like you were implying that the Camden can't. With money & some time it's possible, ask me how I know. LOL

To the OP as the blower can be fun for lower applications they tend to be expensive as you know. They are generally boost limited, due to available pulley sizes. With that said you could always have custom blower pulleys made or enlarge the main pulley to overdrive the charger. In the end you still will be limited to power in the future. The turbo route will give you more room to play & components can be swapped out for better options easier.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

There are so many threads about this that a simple search for "Camden" would turn up several hours reading. Many have struggled to get the thing working correctly, a few have succeeded, and a few of those are happy. It's not that supercharging a rotary is a problem, it's just that the Camden kit kind of sucks and has some serious flaws.


That's both true and not of course. At the 200HP level that the Camden will produce, there won't be turbo lag. With a modern and properly sized turbo (not the 50 year old stock HT-18) at that power level, boost will be instant.

Neither do turbochargers. An intercooler is not required, but measure IATs on both the supercharger and turbocharger without one and see the result.


Changing wastegate springs? Surly you mean just setting a different boost level on the electronic, closed loop boost controller. Since the turbo is a load based device, boost levels are far more adjustable than the supercharger.

And of course, there's the EFI system.

The car comes with a good oil cooler. The water jacket mod (I assume you mean finning the internal water passages) is not really necessary at all. It becomes beneficial when you get to high power levels (400+). No point in using a higher volume oil pump. The stock NA pump will easily maintain oil pressure as long as the oil jets have not been fooled with.

No, not even close. Let's just examine one part of this: turbochargers are NOT free power. It takes power to push those hot exhaust gasses through a turbine, just as it takes power to spin a supercharger via a belt. Measure the pre-turbine backpressure in a turbo system and you'll be surprised at readings anywhere from 10-30 PSI.

Yeah, but they are centrifugal chargers so they are absolutely RPM based in their boost level. You'll see more lag with such a setup then you would with a turbo sized to produce the same power. And you'll have almost the amount of money into the Rotrax supercharger than you would the entire turbo setup...

rotordogg

iTrader: (4)

@rotordad - Actually I would like to see some pics if you have them! I was always curious to see how people have managed to run the piping on a cambden intercooler. Especially if you have it on a carb setup.

I apologize, I didn't realize turbo's had no lag. So a turbo will give you high torque in low RPM's just like the roots type SC? just clarifying.

Yes, yes, required was the wrong word to use.

No, I meant wastegate springs. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you can fine-tune boost levels with a boost controller using a boost controller but to set boost at 3bar doesn't do you any good if your wastegate has a 2 bar spring.

Yes counseler, I retract my statement. The hasty point I was making is that turborchargers are signficantly more efficent than superchargers.

[QUOTE=Aaron Cake;10588174]
Yeah, but they are centrifugal chargers so they are absolutely RPM based in their boost level.QUOTE]

It does have less immediate boost than a roots but it has a nice streetable linear power curve. Something I personally like. Maybe not the best solution for people looking for all out power, but a good alternative to the Cambden. I only mentioned it as something the OP might want to consider.

Slither, sorry if this got a littel hijacked. Hopefully there is some useful info in here for you!

ROTAge244

agreed with Aaron. The Camden kit is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "new" design. It's a positive displacement belt driven roots type two lobed blower meaning it delivers a nearly fixed volume of air per revolution at all speeds (minus leakage, which is almost constant at all speeds for a given pressure, thus its importance decreases at higher speeds). The device divides the air mechanically into parcels for delivery to the engine, mechanically moving the air into the engine bit by bit. If it really wanted to call itself a "roots" blower it would have a complex 3 lobe design for a much larger efficiency, and leveling the field between the axial compressor turbines that we know and love. A good synopsis is the roots type blower is that it is great for dragstrip applications even a blower running at low efficiency will still mechanically deliver the intended volume of air to the engine, but that air will be hotter. In drag racing applications where large volumes of fuel are injected with that hot air, vaporizing the fuel absorbs the heat. This functions as a kind of liquid aftercooler system and goes a long way to negating the inefficiency of the Roots design in that application. If this was a carbureted 12A then by all means slap that bitch on

Evil Aviator

A Roots supercharger is optimized for a boost level of about 6-8 psi. At this pressure, a modern ball bearing turbo will have very little lag. Also, Roots superchargers have blow-by at low speed, so they usually do not reach their full boost level until they spool up to about 3,000-4,000rpm. The main difference is that a Roots supercharger is directly linked to the engine which gives it a more positive feel, while a turbocharger spools independently which gives it a mushy feel.

Contrary to popular belief, turbochargers produce torque. Also contrary to popular belief, turbochargers are a type of supercharger, as their proper name is "turbosupercharger".

It works in the opposite manner. For example, if you wanted to vary your boost between 2 and 3bar, then you would install a 2bar spring and then set the boost controller between 2 and 3bar. The boost controller can't set the boost level any lower than the spring setting.

This is not a significant factor if the turbo is properly matched to the engine. Belt-driven superchargers cause much more power loss.

It was new in 1860. My, how time flies.

rotordad

No carb here, I'm running EFI. No piping either, that would result in a headache of complex routing. I run a water to air charge cooler that mounts between the blower & the manifold ( like a sandwich ). Used what I had seen big blocks run with their big roots blowers.

There are far superior blowers out there to use, but if you found a Camden for a low price sure why not. I have been happy with mine over the years, but for higher power needs I have my turbo car.

BTW the fact that turbos are not "FREE" power as being an obstruction of exhaust flow is what he was explaining since he had stated it was.

ROTAge244

Boost is boost at the end of the day I suppose, research it and pick yer poison.