philiptompkins

iTrader: (4)

^^so does the system work better after it "settles down"?

Also, where do you get this ES12a and how much does it cost?

The duster in 7dust's car seemed to work marginally well... about the same as 134a, but it could have had something to do with the kink in between the compressor and condenser.

Scott, post a pic of that kink when you get home.

limepro

iTrader: (2)

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm is where I got it from but I found this one, I like the setup better.
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ...rant&Trying=ON

I bought the $30 recharge kit, comes with o-ring conditioner and 2 cans of es12-a, as well as fittings if you are still set for R12 and the filler hose.

I am going to get some industrial soon but the stuff is really cheap.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

No it doesn't. It doesn't work worth a crap. Been there done that. Multiple cars, multiple times, different brands. I'm pretty damn good at this MVAC thing. I conversed with customer service at Envirosafe over the course of two summers. Every time the stuff didn't work, it was because I did something wrong. I over charged, I undercharged, I charged into a vacuum, I *didn't* charge into a vacuum. My A/C system was no good, I didn't give it time to 'settle down', maybe my car is one of those cars that 'needed the Industrial ES12a etc etc.

They will also won't/can't tell you *what* you need to have in the system to prevent a vacuum. Air? Low pressure propane? Left over R12? Leftover R134a?

I still have that nasty pine stink in two different cars. It's bullshit.

limepro

iTrader: (2)

There are a few of us with FDs that have had amazing results with the stuff, as well as many people with other cars. Some people it seems to work really well others it does not, did you replace everything in your car? did it work with regular R134 or R12 or any other? What are your vent temps?

I have had both R134 and es12a in my system and using a digital and analog thermometer the es12a came out about 10 degrees colder in very hot and humid weather.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

What do you guys not understand about the ES12 stuff? It is FUEL. It BURNS. It sustains flame. It explodes.Make your own video. Try to burn R134a. Post it up. You can't make R134a burn. It is NON-FLAMMABLE. I'll paypal you $100 if you can make R134a burn at atmospheric pressure.

Now, as to your statement about the video made? I have the video link. It is now listed under 'Comedy' on Youtube. It was made as a 'Safety Demonstration' by Dr. Ian McClain-Cross. He is/was an Australian professor at the University of South Wales. He is Ground Zero, THE source of all the bullshit regarding propane refrigerants for use in cars. All of the bullshit on ES, Envirosafe etc sites is copy pasted from his 'research' publicity releases. He had a run of about 10 years before he finally cooked his own goose. BTW, I was a big fan in those days.

The video is of a public demonstration Dr. made to prove the safety of the 'refrigerant' for auto use. In the video, the good Dr. releases the 'refrigerant' into the car, he then lights a match. If you just want to see the explosion, go to 4:15 and watch. There is also an interesting vignette taken at the emergency room that follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k

The Dr. was subsequently forced into retirement, prosecuted and most of his 'research' papers were taken down from the internet.

Guys, this is a very serious deal.


If you have a system that is truly working efficiently and effectively in a high temperature/humidity environment, then you are a very rare person. You should start your own thread and teach the rest of us how to achieve this result-*after* you make your own safety videos.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

BTW, I still have a half case of R12. If you want to see how your FD should cool, you could pay me to correctly charge it with R12.

Seriously, I must say that the cars I have unsuccessfully used ES12a in were also not suitable for 134a conversion due to condenser capacity. That was my only reason for trying the crap. Possibly if the car has sufficient condenser capacity, the car is more capable of cooling with the crap?

Was your FD originally an R134a car? That would be any 1994+ FD.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...18#post8233918

philiptompkins

iTrader: (4)

like how the temp and clock readouts are exacty the same in the first pic.
And is the top temp for ambient inside the car? or is there another sensor for OAT?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Top number is ambient inside temp. It's quite a bit warmer up on the dash than on the console. Bottom number is the vent temp.

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

Decided to try this out

2 10oz cans of Dust Destroyer, will see what the results are tomorrow! 102F in Riverside

sc_frontier

iTrader: (3)

I bought a vacuum pump from napa for like $60. It has no moving parts but needs a big air compressor to work properly. I tried it out the other day with my dual stage 60 gal air compressor and it pulled the a/c system down to 30mmhg, and the compressor was probably at 50% duty cycle.
https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...05_0064419777#

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

this is why it's a difficult comparison. obviously your car was having other issues, i have done a number of conversions driving the same areas that blew ice cold with R134a.

some cars like it, some tolerate it and some hate it. it's based on the compressor mainly in my experience and not the condenser core. the rest of the system has to be functionally checked as well, an inoperative auxiuliary fan for example or weak thermofan can have huge negative affects on function, as well as crap in the oil cooler duct covering half of your condenser core.

i've also ran R134a in the same vehicles at varying altitudes and now with random humidity factor, it still works ok but not as well as R12. all with ambient temperatures near 110*F..

there is however nothing wrong with a refrigerant that works better than R134a

but i am going to say that any system that is being converted properly needs to be working properly first before comparisons made.

Zero10

1) This has already been covered
2) That pump can't produce enough vacuum to properly remove the moisture from the A/C system
3) 30mmHg can't possibly be right, even 300mmHg wouldn't be enough
4) You overpaid, those pumps are worth ~1/3 of that at harbor freight

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

even though inadequate they generally are better than nothing for getting the air out of the system to service it properly.

the only reason you really need to remove the water from the system is if you have had the system totally open to atmosphere for more than a short period of time. you don't need a dramatic vacuum to evacuate the system to prepare it for a proper full charge of refrigerant.

i do believe he was referring to 30"Hg by the way... which my 150psi supply can pull down to about 27-28"Hg with the same type of pump which is very nearly adequate. no one is going to go out and buy a $300 electric vacuum pump to perhaps do the job only slightly better. not everyone has a kragen or autozone nearby and a decent compressor will work the mechanical air over port vacuum pumps ok.



while i think it is great to have information on alternatives, of which i will try this one too because R134a is overpriced and getting more overpriced daily, things should not be taken out of perspective due to improperly functioning systems.

i do not know though, perhaps i am just blessed with common sense to check everything and have had good results. the largest bonus to this is colder temps at smaller price tag, even R134a is costing nearly $50 a charge when just 5 years ago it was about $20(even worse in california because now they are putting R134a into recyclable sealed cans which require a special adapter and $10 core for each can! i believe they are trying to make it more cost effective to have the systems professionally serviced because it is cheaper to spend $50 at a shop than $50 plus tax and $20 core return to do it yourself.).

sc_frontier

iTrader: (3)

Oops I meant 30" Hg (this is approximate of course) and my compressor cuts off at 175 psi btw. I don't like harbor freight, and will pay more for Napa tools on most days. I am looking forward to experimenting with r152a and this thread has been very interesting.

pk386

YEP. UGGGHHHH I Am so sick and tired of the EPA's BS on this stuff. I don't want to be hot and I can 't afford a new car every 5 years. It's getting stupid ridiculous.

The worst part of it is the fact that it ends up becoming a TAX on poor people.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

everything follows the price of oil. i can't find any support as to why coolant and air conditioning refrigerant have doubled as well in cost over the past 5 years.. actually more with R134a, it was $3.99 for a 12oz can '05-06. R12 has turned into liquid gold at about $75-100 per 16oz. price was driven up in conjunction with EPA standards so that people would use consumables more wisely, except nature is out of our personal control. a/c lines rupture for no good reason for example, yet you pay additional for it.

sc_frontier

iTrader: (3)

I stopped by office depot on my way home and picked up a 3 pack of duster for $18.XX

Snowburn

iTrader: (2)

Hey Thanks for posting all this jackhild59

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

Umm, Minnesota and the midwest are just as taxing on A/C systems as the rest of the country lol. In some respects (latent capacity) even more so than the southwest. We dont get to cheat with evaporative cooling like those in AZ...

So im not sure i would discount input from those of us that live here (and design A/C systems here)....

Mid 90s and approaching 100 were not uncommon this summer nor past summers. Plus, we have fairly common summer high dew points in the low to mid 80s (official record set at MSP this summer). Basically similar to dew points in the south east coastal areas...

Not that i disagree with your recommendations, but lets not marginalize experts because of where they live and your misconceptions of said locations...

HoustonMS3

Not that it is a competition to see who has the shittiest weather, but this made me laugh. We just set the record of 70 consecutive days for 100 degree temps, but they do win the award for annoying accents.

sc_frontier

iTrader: (3)

Two words "ice water"

RockLobster

iTrader: (7)

And those that understand refrigeration cycles know that humidity is half the battle. A standard (no evaporative aids such as is the case with all automotive A/C) A/C system operating in AZ at 120 deg dry bulb (a common summer high temp) will often NOT have its capacity taxed as much as those in sub 100 temps with high dry bulbs....turns out pulling water out of air takes a lot of energy...

In any case not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out that people who hang their hats on dry bulb temps as the primary factor in the sizing and capacities of A/C systems are going to find out they never have enough cooling...thus A/C systems are taxed by far more than straight air temps...

A lot of factors go into it, but with very basic and antiquated systems like automotive A/C the above holds true more often than not.

I will agree that we dont find ourselves maxing out A/C capacities for as MANY days as in the south...not even close...

Osirus9

iTrader: (10)

I agree. When it gets hot here it gets HUMID. And the humidity makes 90 degrees absolutely unbearable without A/C and no pants.

I also agree that it doesn't get hot here as often but I don't really think that's the point. Then again we had a record heat wave this year...

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

obviously it's not the same feeling but it often takes less a/c cooling to help in more humid climates simply to dry the air. i don't exactly agree also that it takes alot of effort to dry the air with the a/c system.

basically 89* in key west felt like a 110* day here in the desert, where the car takes almost 10 minutes to pull down the ambient temperature inside the car to be semi comfortable, in the south it takes much less time and less heat generated for the engine in return to do the same job.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

You guys brush up a little on your physics, specifically the field of psychrometrics.

You are guys are arguing sensible vs. latent heat. This is an argument of the ignorant, no offense. Sensible heat is the 'dry-bulb' temperature, basically the heat capacity of dry air. Latent heat is related to the 'wet-bulb' or dew-point. Both contribute to the load that must be removed from the interior air and rejected by the condenser in front of the radiator. The calculation of sensible heat load vs. latent heat load is call the SHR or Sensible Heat Ratio. In a car, the SHR can be changed by adjusting the speed of the fan. Lower the fan speed, the SHR becomes lower; turn the fan up, the SHR becomes higher.

Why does this matter? Well, if you are in a 'humid' but not hot area, your drip should be nearly a stream. In the desert, there may be less drip, but there should always be drip unless the area has a dew point lower than 40*f. How do you know the dew point? check your weather ap on the iPhone or look at your night temps. Unless you are in an urban heat island, the night temps will approach dew point. Dew point does not vary much from night to day.

The argument becomes irrelevant within a few minutes after the car is started. Why? Because you should set the air on recirculate, at least during initial cool down. Now you are dealing with the actual load, solar gain, heat from the mechanics of the car, ambient heat conducted through the body, heat radiated up from that hot roadway etc. These loads are all independent of latent load (humidity) and are directly related to the sensible (ambient temp) load. These loads are by far the majority of the heat that our auto A/C must remove. The humidity removal is almost a by-product of this process.

Just in case your car leaks massive amounts of air (thus letting additional amounts of humid air into the interior) FIX YOUR CAR!


Now, when you Yankee's finish whining about how hot it gets in Minnisota (Mmmiiiniiiisohhhtah) or Canada (Eh?) keep in mind that I live 12 miles from D/FW airport. I will pick you up and buy the beer if you ever get the urge to experience 105+ degrees with dew points well over 80*. We will take in a late August Texas Rangers night baseball game when the on field temps are in excess of 100* and dew points are over 80* during the 7th inning stretch. You will leave for home a different person!

That is a valid offer, only if you are legal to drink!