Bridgeport vs. 1/2 Bridge ?
10-13-06, 09:25 AM
#126
Engine, Not Motor
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Originally Posted by sniperstevedave
As for the aux bridge, I am not sure how it is even possible to lose low end torque or power, since the ports only open at high rpms. Perhaps you have done something barbaric like removing the sleeves?
Actually, this is understandable since you turbocharged a n/a engine and no longer need them. However, my interest in an aux port is for a naturally aspirated 6 port (S5), not a turbocharged one. I am wondering if it might make a large increase in top end power, without affecting the low end.
Since my car is a daily driver, and will be for some time to come, I do not want to lessen low rpm performance, while maximizing high rpm performance, since when I drive for fun I will be staying at high rpms anyway. Do you (or anyone else) have any first hand info on an aux bridge in this respect?
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578046
10-13-06, 11:03 AM
#127
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by RETed
And you still can't see where I'm coming from...
My point is that what advantages are the HBP / BP over a stock port / SP engine?
If the BP only makes 1hp over a SP engine, then why are you paying hundreds of dollars for the extra work and effort?
classicauto mentions the BRAP - I can live with that.
WTF is your reason?
I've posted my reasons why I think IT'S A BAD IDEA.
That's it.
This thread shouldn't be in this subsection - if anything, it should be in the Rotary Performance section...since it has NOTHING to do with FC's - someone else pointed out this fact, not me.
I don't give a **** what you think, since you've already stated you don't like my replies.
I'm not posting my replies for you.
My replies are the OTHER people who are reading this and trying to get an informed opinion on the subject.
There have been LOTS of people who stuck their 2 cents in that support BDC and HBP's / BP's.
They are the ones also blasting me - see above.
Again, my replies are not for them, since they already have a bias on what they want to believe.
Other people want to know what the whole deal is.
It was posted in the FC subsection; it is safe to say that the majority of readers will be FC owners.
BDC likes to point out all the positives, and I just pointed out all the negatives.
BDC likes to argue: well, you don't know **** cause you've never done it.
That's besides the point - I've counterargued with graphs, numbers, and sounds theory.
BDC still won't listen, cause just because he's done it, that's all that matters.
All BDC can say is that I don't know what the **** I'm talking about, since his experience it spools faster (yet it doesn't make more power down low), makes more power (which I've disproved, but he claims I've fudged the numbers), and is just efficient (which is a total crock of **** because overlap is overlap), and makes better low end power (which is a total crock of ****, because again overlap is overlap).
Anyone who understands intake / exhaust (port) timing, duration, overlap will understand what is going on and what is bullshit, period.
You can't break the laws of physics, but BDC seems to think he can.
Unless you got something tech that's useful to say, you can blast me in PM's all you want.
-Ted
My point is that what advantages are the HBP / BP over a stock port / SP engine?
If the BP only makes 1hp over a SP engine, then why are you paying hundreds of dollars for the extra work and effort?
classicauto mentions the BRAP - I can live with that.
WTF is your reason?
I've posted my reasons why I think IT'S A BAD IDEA.
That's it.
This thread shouldn't be in this subsection - if anything, it should be in the Rotary Performance section...since it has NOTHING to do with FC's - someone else pointed out this fact, not me.
I don't give a **** what you think, since you've already stated you don't like my replies.
I'm not posting my replies for you.
My replies are the OTHER people who are reading this and trying to get an informed opinion on the subject.
There have been LOTS of people who stuck their 2 cents in that support BDC and HBP's / BP's.
They are the ones also blasting me - see above.
Again, my replies are not for them, since they already have a bias on what they want to believe.
Other people want to know what the whole deal is.
It was posted in the FC subsection; it is safe to say that the majority of readers will be FC owners.
BDC likes to point out all the positives, and I just pointed out all the negatives.
BDC likes to argue: well, you don't know **** cause you've never done it.
That's besides the point - I've counterargued with graphs, numbers, and sounds theory.
BDC still won't listen, cause just because he's done it, that's all that matters.
All BDC can say is that I don't know what the **** I'm talking about, since his experience it spools faster (yet it doesn't make more power down low), makes more power (which I've disproved, but he claims I've fudged the numbers), and is just efficient (which is a total crock of **** because overlap is overlap), and makes better low end power (which is a total crock of ****, because again overlap is overlap).
Anyone who understands intake / exhaust (port) timing, duration, overlap will understand what is going on and what is bullshit, period.
You can't break the laws of physics, but BDC seems to think he can.
Unless you got something tech that's useful to say, you can blast me in PM's all you want.
-Ted
- Yes, it doesn't seem to want to idle below about 900-1000rpm, but so what?
- Yes, it basically requires the use of a standalone EFI system if the vehicle isn't carbureted, but so what? A high percentage of Rx7's that are now and have been modified over the past several years already do this.
- Yes, it's louder, but so what? I've heard street port cars that are louder.
- Yes, there's a not-so-substantial loss of MPG at lower RPM's (idle to about 3000rpm I'd say), but so what? Believe me, a good portion of that can be re-captured by means of tuning. Just to give you an idea, in the last 3 1/2 years since I embarked upon this grand experiment, I've worked my way up to my 10th set of leading and trail-split ignition curves, each latter one being an improvement upon the earlier.
and...
- Yes, it produces a substantially wider power-band
- Yes, it allows the use of larger, more efficient single turbos (or perhaps a good pair of T3/T4 twins) with a comparable "feel" of smaller turbos
- Yes, it produces the idealistic "brap" exhaust note that garners a more "hot-rod" sound and feel to the car
- Yes, it paves the way to producing higher overall power (even though you seem to so fervently disagree)
Are you going to allow yourself to be potentially mistaken about this or are you going to continue arguing theory, "physics" and alleged numbers, all from the comfort of your computer chair instead of actually doing something? Real-world, hard-earned experience is where the rubber meets the road, Ted. Instead of trying to debunk me and the host of others who all swear by this by means of your alleged "theories", go and actually do something. Otherwise, you're just yet another one of those disillusioned "know-it-all, all bark and no bite, Internet experts" (with 20,000+ posts) who seems to get off on knocking others down to give themselves a temporary yet un-earned ego boost.
Meet ya on the road,
B
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swif (11-30-22)
10-13-06, 01:43 PM
#128
Originally Posted by Sideways7
My point is that until you have two identical engines - same series engine, same turbo, same EMS, same tuner, with the only difference being the porting, then you can't accurately compare the two in terms of power delivery.
Its already been done, and the BP shows a MINOR gain. The main thing is that it is a gain - NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COSTS OR TIME IT TOOK.
I think the thing that can agreed on - or at least reach a marginal agreement on - is the fact that in reality (where the rubber meets the road as BDC put it) the power ceiling on a stock or street port motor is enough (power) for use on the street, no?
Yes, a HBP or full BP can be used on the street by a well versed, experienced owner and in either an emissions expemt area, or with an emissions exempt car. But - generally speaking - a BP or HBP car on the street (in most cases) is still under the ceiling of power that could be made on a street port or stock port - which is why I can only find my justification for it in the brrrraPPP.
Faster spool, wider power band, all that jazz will still be largely decided in the actual cuts themselves and since the standards for bridgeing are very loose and un-organized, no real concrete and infintely repeatable conclusion can be made other than they "generally" behave that way.
my final conclusion in this thread is this:
For me personally (as I said) I am only doing it for ego and more grand rotary noise pollution (and to scare old ladies
)For everyone else, a HBP'd or Bp'd motor has higher potential but the ceiling of power for stock and street ports in certainly ample for any street car. Make your own choice with your wallet and your heart.
10-13-06, 01:58 PM
#129
Yes its slow
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Originally Posted by classicauto
Well, it can be close - but never the same. A HBP, or BP'd motor will have a drastically different tune, even as a base tune, then a stock port. And as such - the comparison will still be a mildly "grey area" one. But no doubt such a comparison would give *fairly* conclusive answers....BUT
Its already been done, and the BP shows a MINOR gain. The main thing is that it is a gain - NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COSTS OR TIME IT TOOK.
I think the thing that can agreed on - or at least reach a marginal agreement on - is the fact that in reality (where the rubber meets the road as BDC put it) the power ceiling on a stock or street port motor is enough (power) for use on the street, no?
Yes, a HBP or full BP can be used on the street by a well versed, experienced owner and in either an emissions expemt area, or with an emissions exempt car. But - generally speaking - a BP or HBP car on the street (in most cases) is still under the ceiling of power that could be made on a street port or stock port - which is why I can only find my justification for it in the brrrraPPP.
Faster spool, wider power band, all that jazz will still be largely decided in the actual cuts themselves and since the standards for bridgeing are very loose and un-organized, no real concrete and infintely repeatable conclusion can be made other than they "generally" behave that way.
my final conclusion in this thread is this:
For me personally (as I said) I am only doing it for ego and more grand rotary noise pollution (and to scare old ladies )
For everyone else, a HBP'd or Bp'd motor has higher potential but the ceiling of power for stock and street ports in certainly ample for any street car. Make your own choice with your wallet and your heart.
Its already been done, and the BP shows a MINOR gain. The main thing is that it is a gain - NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COSTS OR TIME IT TOOK.
I think the thing that can agreed on - or at least reach a marginal agreement on - is the fact that in reality (where the rubber meets the road as BDC put it) the power ceiling on a stock or street port motor is enough (power) for use on the street, no?
Yes, a HBP or full BP can be used on the street by a well versed, experienced owner and in either an emissions expemt area, or with an emissions exempt car. But - generally speaking - a BP or HBP car on the street (in most cases) is still under the ceiling of power that could be made on a street port or stock port - which is why I can only find my justification for it in the brrrraPPP.
Faster spool, wider power band, all that jazz will still be largely decided in the actual cuts themselves and since the standards for bridgeing are very loose and un-organized, no real concrete and infintely repeatable conclusion can be made other than they "generally" behave that way.
my final conclusion in this thread is this:
For me personally (as I said) I am only doing it for ego and more grand rotary noise pollution (and to scare old ladies
)For everyone else, a HBP'd or Bp'd motor has higher potential but the ceiling of power for stock and street ports in certainly ample for any street car. Make your own choice with your wallet and your heart.
THANK YOU! I've been with BDC ever since the 1st bp cut was done. And I remember exactly the way the car ran when street ported. BDC mentioned that all we did was fix an o-ring and while doing so he was coerced to BP the engine
And no porting work, just very rough bp cuts. The change in turbo spool time was very noticeable. Came on sooner and harder. While the low-end power was lowered(When I mean low end, I mean from the second you let off the clutch and accelerate)So 2.5k and up, you could not feel much of any difference. Since you have to take in consideration. Just about every car runs an A/M clutch and maybe flywheel your driving habits change on take off. But anywho ever so slighty was the low-end changed, you felt the difference in the power-band alot wider. To show that the bp cuts did make a difference in mid-high power indefinately, the turbo previously held boost solid til shifting. After we bp'd it..we noticed the turbo wasnt keeping up. So hmmmm did the turbo suddenly become too small because the engine was moving alot more air???
So Ask BDC for the links to our street, light-to-light drivin in his BP car.."DRIVES LIKE ANY OTHER CAR!!!
*this message was meant for classicauto to reply and for everyone to read*
Last edited by Slammedblk7; 10-13-06 at 02:02 PM.
10-13-06, 06:37 PM
#130
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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check this out, i actually have a great comparison
two of my FC friends here both have the MP T70. one has a stock port S4 TII and the other has a BDC S4 TII. both have haltech with bdc maps, tho not fully tuned... and all i can say is..
are you kidding me!?!?!?!
stock port car literally makes it's full boost around 6k rpms (12psi or so) and yes it does pull nice. feels strong but nothing crazy. when he's cruising around in 3rd gear or 4th gear and goes WOT it takes foreeeever for that turbo to spool up. seriously, it's that bad. you almost have to break boost in 2nd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i hope he doesn't get mad at me for posting this, but it's for comparison. his car is still very fast... but if it had a HBP things would be much different
the BDC HBP car hits 15psi by 4200rpms and has a great linear build. the second you floor it it's building boost fast. you cruise in 3rd or 4th in this one and go WOT you will quickly be sucked in the seat only to be released when he lets off! this car never ever stops pulling as compared to the stock port car which seems to hit a ceiling around 6500....
again both cars have the same MP T70, both have a 1.00 a/r.. only difference in turbos is the HBP car has the Q trim GT series which normally would spool SLOWER BUT IT DOESNT!!!!!!!
i... am.... a.... believer
the great thing is, within a few weeks or so i will have results of a HBP with twin t3/t4's
two of my FC friends here both have the MP T70. one has a stock port S4 TII and the other has a BDC S4 TII. both have haltech with bdc maps, tho not fully tuned... and all i can say is..
are you kidding me!?!?!?!
stock port car literally makes it's full boost around 6k rpms (12psi or so) and yes it does pull nice. feels strong but nothing crazy. when he's cruising around in 3rd gear or 4th gear and goes WOT it takes foreeeever for that turbo to spool up. seriously, it's that bad. you almost have to break boost in 2nd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i hope he doesn't get mad at me for posting this, but it's for comparison. his car is still very fast... but if it had a HBP things would be much different
the BDC HBP car hits 15psi by 4200rpms and has a great linear build. the second you floor it it's building boost fast. you cruise in 3rd or 4th in this one and go WOT you will quickly be sucked in the seat only to be released when he lets off! this car never ever stops pulling as compared to the stock port car which seems to hit a ceiling around 6500....
again both cars have the same MP T70, both have a 1.00 a/r.. only difference in turbos is the HBP car has the Q trim GT series which normally would spool SLOWER BUT IT DOESNT!!!!!!!
i... am.... a.... believer
the great thing is, within a few weeks or so i will have results of a HBP with twin t3/t4's
10-13-06, 07:37 PM
#131
Home-brew Rotary
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Great thread.
I agree.
A couple months ago, i dont remember when exactly, I met rotaryresurrection. He was at another members house tuning. He had hes BP'ed 3rd gen with him. That car was idling with its brap, brap, brap, and SHAKING the whole car. When he took off infront of the house, the sound of his engine was beautiful, when he shifted from 1st to 2nd it let out a loud backfire, which was so loud and happend right next to my brothers parked RX7, I heard him say, "that could have broke my window."
That was the awesome'st RX7 Ive ever seen in person.
And I think thats the one main propose of BP's. The freaken awesomeness.
I cant wait to build my first HBP rotary.
Originally Posted by Rx7_Nut13B
+2
IT was a great post untill all the fighting, WHO CARES. If i want a BP then great if i want a HBP great also, i come here for INFO not FIGHTING. In the end everone has to make up there own mind.
Chuck
IT was a great post untill all the fighting, WHO CARES. If i want a BP then great if i want a HBP great also, i come here for INFO not FIGHTING. In the end everone has to make up there own mind.
Chuck
A couple months ago, i dont remember when exactly, I met rotaryresurrection. He was at another members house tuning. He had hes BP'ed 3rd gen with him. That car was idling with its brap, brap, brap, and SHAKING the whole car. When he took off infront of the house, the sound of his engine was beautiful, when he shifted from 1st to 2nd it let out a loud backfire, which was so loud and happend right next to my brothers parked RX7, I heard him say, "that could have broke my window."
That was the awesome'st RX7 Ive ever seen in person.
And I think thats the one main propose of BP's. The freaken awesomeness.
I cant wait to build my first HBP rotary.
10-14-06, 10:42 PM
#132
I would like to ask one question about the HBP and passing emmisions on a 3rd gen.
I am not sure if this is true but, if you are running lite throttle (Only have the single butterfly open) then you will not be running the secondary ports. In other words the if you make it so that the secondary throttle butterflys dont open at all then the secondary Bports are really not being used. Thus there is no air/Fuel coming in when the overlap starts and by the time the Primary port opens then the exhuast is cut off. So you are not injecting air/fuel when the exh and intake is open.
AGIAN DONT BASH ME, This was something i was reading a few weeks ago.
I really want the Brapp...... Brapp of a HBP but live in a area of texas that you have emmision testing, Now there is a good thing i have, the local shop doenst care what the engine looks like, and doesnt hookup the rpms so it can idle where even and as high as i need.
I just want to be able to pass the emmisions
This was my plain to pass
Use a electric smog pump and run the air line full force into the exhast before the Cat. Maybe even install two Cats in a spare mid pipe. I will only have cats when i need to pass, then they will be removed.
Also the exhuast will be ported for the hbp.
Any help on ideas to pass would be great, trying to get all my ducks inaline before i have the porting done.
I have a PowerFC and Datalogit so tuning would not be a problem.
I am not sure if this is true but, if you are running lite throttle (Only have the single butterfly open) then you will not be running the secondary ports. In other words the if you make it so that the secondary throttle butterflys dont open at all then the secondary Bports are really not being used. Thus there is no air/Fuel coming in when the overlap starts and by the time the Primary port opens then the exhuast is cut off. So you are not injecting air/fuel when the exh and intake is open.
AGIAN DONT BASH ME, This was something i was reading a few weeks ago.
I really want the Brapp...... Brapp of a HBP but live in a area of texas that you have emmision testing, Now there is a good thing i have, the local shop doenst care what the engine looks like, and doesnt hookup the rpms so it can idle where even and as high as i need.
I just want to be able to pass the emmisions
This was my plain to pass
Use a electric smog pump and run the air line full force into the exhast before the Cat. Maybe even install two Cats in a spare mid pipe. I will only have cats when i need to pass, then they will be removed.
Also the exhuast will be ported for the hbp.
Any help on ideas to pass would be great, trying to get all my ducks inaline before i have the porting done.
I have a PowerFC and Datalogit so tuning would not be a problem.
10-14-06, 10:51 PM
#133
Not gonna happen. At least I dont think so. Others may differ or even have experience to the contrary.
Even after Brian tuned my setup (and Im not sure how many people could do it any better than him), it would sit there at idle and puff smoke, belch unburned fuel and so forth. You couldnt stand behind it for more than a couple of seconds. Obviously this was cat-less, but I dont see even a new cat with an airpump saving you. Overlap induces poor emissions, bottom line. Part of the reason the 89+ engines have no EGR valve is because they decreased port overlap, opening the primaries later, making for a self induced EGR effect, and a cleaner burning engine. So obviously when you go the other way with the ports, opening them sooner, well it just gets that much worse.
even though the secondary port butterflies are closed at idle and low rpm, there is still crosstalk between the ports which share rotor chambers, because those runners are still open and contain some air even when the butterflies are closed. The only way to completely eliminate them would be to close them right at the iron face...kinda like a 5/6th port sleeve in an FC.
Even after Brian tuned my setup (and Im not sure how many people could do it any better than him), it would sit there at idle and puff smoke, belch unburned fuel and so forth. You couldnt stand behind it for more than a couple of seconds. Obviously this was cat-less, but I dont see even a new cat with an airpump saving you. Overlap induces poor emissions, bottom line. Part of the reason the 89+ engines have no EGR valve is because they decreased port overlap, opening the primaries later, making for a self induced EGR effect, and a cleaner burning engine. So obviously when you go the other way with the ports, opening them sooner, well it just gets that much worse.
even though the secondary port butterflies are closed at idle and low rpm, there is still crosstalk between the ports which share rotor chambers, because those runners are still open and contain some air even when the butterflies are closed. The only way to completely eliminate them would be to close them right at the iron face...kinda like a 5/6th port sleeve in an FC.
10-15-06, 10:16 AM
#134
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
Not gonna happen. At least I dont think so. Others may differ or even have experience to the contrary.
Even after Brian tuned my setup (and Im not sure how many people could do it any better than him), it would sit there at idle and puff smoke, belch unburned fuel and so forth. You couldnt stand behind it for more than a couple of seconds. Obviously this was cat-less, but I dont see even a new cat with an airpump saving you. Overlap induces poor emissions, bottom line. Part of the reason the 89+ engines have no EGR valve is because they decreased port overlap, opening the primaries later, making for a self induced EGR effect, and a cleaner burning engine. So obviously when you go the other way with the ports, opening them sooner, well it just gets that much worse.
even though the secondary port butterflies are closed at idle and low rpm, there is still crosstalk between the ports which share rotor chambers, because those runners are still open and contain some air even when the butterflies are closed. The only way to completely eliminate them would be to close them right at the iron face...kinda like a 5/6th port sleeve in an FC.
Even after Brian tuned my setup (and Im not sure how many people could do it any better than him), it would sit there at idle and puff smoke, belch unburned fuel and so forth. You couldnt stand behind it for more than a couple of seconds. Obviously this was cat-less, but I dont see even a new cat with an airpump saving you. Overlap induces poor emissions, bottom line. Part of the reason the 89+ engines have no EGR valve is because they decreased port overlap, opening the primaries later, making for a self induced EGR effect, and a cleaner burning engine. So obviously when you go the other way with the ports, opening them sooner, well it just gets that much worse.
even though the secondary port butterflies are closed at idle and low rpm, there is still crosstalk between the ports which share rotor chambers, because those runners are still open and contain some air even when the butterflies are closed. The only way to completely eliminate them would be to close them right at the iron face...kinda like a 5/6th port sleeve in an FC.
B
10-15-06, 01:23 PM
#135
The issue with idle was the ISC valve. On ported FD engines the PFC seems to work better with no ISC at all, from what I've seen. I later unplugged it and got it to idle stable at 13-1400. You may want to note that for your future tuning.
I think the problem with fuel was that the PFC cannot turn down the 850 primaries enough. If I had smaller primaries you probably could have tuned it better for idle. I was extremely happy with everything else off-idle, however, and there was no smoke except at idle.
I was disappointed we couldn't go to 18psi that day, though, especially with the water injection. That bad boy would have been strong at 18-20psi, and I easily had the mods to support it.
I think the problem with fuel was that the PFC cannot turn down the 850 primaries enough. If I had smaller primaries you probably could have tuned it better for idle. I was extremely happy with everything else off-idle, however, and there was no smoke except at idle.
I was disappointed we couldn't go to 18psi that day, though, especially with the water injection. That bad boy would have been strong at 18-20psi, and I easily had the mods to support it.
10-15-06, 06:36 PM
#136
That is a good point about the port sharing, How about blocking off the ports at the block like you said, would this help. I do alot of alum work so i can make a block off plate that will bolt to the motor and still alow the stock intake to fit. Then i could remove it after i was done.
Any more ideas?
I got one more question, if a HBP would have a better chance than a FBP at passing emmisions.
I have brazoria county
Any more ideas?
I got one more question, if a HBP would have a better chance than a FBP at passing emmisions.
I have brazoria county
10-17-06, 12:10 AM
#139
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Originally Posted by DREYKO
this thread has me extreamly interested in trying to come up with a working aux port bridge. does anyone have any more ideas on that?
I picked mine up on Saturday. I havent gotten the car up to redline yet since its still being broken in. I have a little over 600 miles on it, so its got about 400 before I start moving it up in the rev range. Then i need to get a Wideband to check out my A/F. However if you want to stop by and see it I live right next to the RBC center.
Up to 4500 the car pulls harder than my stock vert, but I expect taht as it is lighter and the pri/sec are streetported.
BC
10-17-06, 09:36 AM
#141
Down for the count...
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Originally Posted by NMJ87T2
BDC, could you possibly post a video with sound of your car?
Thanks
Thanks
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/d/6868-2/MVI_4407.avi
Right Click, Save As
10-17-06, 10:49 AM
#143
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by NMJ87T2
BDC, could you possibly post a video with sound of your car?
Thanks
Thanks
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...no_001/Videos/
B
10-17-06, 10:51 AM
#144
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Rx7_Nut13B
Still any Ideas on Emmision passing. I want a Bridge badly but hate to deal with doing something drastic like replacing a motor everyear to pass. ( HELL NO, But if thats what it comes down to I will) I am Crazy
B
