Braking system upgrades
07-05-07, 09:56 AM
#1
No rotary, no problems?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dubuque, IA
Posts: 1,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Braking system upgrades
Well, the time has come that I'm going to need rotors and pads on my car. I've already figured out that the calipers work perfectly and that my lines are in excellent shape and that everything else is functioning properly. I also figured out my questions with what fluid to go with, and that I will not be switching to stainless lines due to their ability to rupture at inconvinient times. I already have the 5 lug system on my car since it's a 87 GXL, so I won't need to do the 5 lug conversion either. IIRC, the 87 GXL came with the 4 piston calipers too. So, what upgrades besides rotors, pads, and new fluid can I do with the car?
07-05-07, 10:06 AM
#2
SS lines don't "rupture", they typically fail due to poor crimping or incorrect assembly of the fittings.
There is nothing wrong with well made aftermarket brake hoses- by all means, get stock rubber hoses if you like but not because you've been scared away from stainless lines by internet myths.
There is nothing wrong with well made aftermarket brake hoses- by all means, get stock rubber hoses if you like but not because you've been scared away from stainless lines by internet myths.
07-05-07, 02:43 PM
#5
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Comstock Park, MI 49321
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SS lines are very good as long as they dont leak.. I have only personally seen 2 cases in the hundreds of sets of ss lines I have installed be bad out of the box..
SS lines are very good and do help with brake pressure
cross drilled and/or slotted rotors are nice and preaty however unless u are really hardcore racing and auto X every week they are not needed.. I would just go with a nice pair of blanks and a set of high grade ceramic pads (not even a race pad)
SS lines are very good and do help with brake pressure
cross drilled and/or slotted rotors are nice and preaty however unless u are really hardcore racing and auto X every week they are not needed.. I would just go with a nice pair of blanks and a set of high grade ceramic pads (not even a race pad)
07-05-07, 04:14 PM
#6
No rotary, no problems?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dubuque, IA
Posts: 1,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, what company sells a good set of SS lines for cheap then? I do know about cross drilled rotors possibly cracking and that slotted rotors will cut down on pad life, so my guess is that a good set of blanks will work fine. Not sure what route to go on pads yet either...
07-05-07, 05:26 PM
#7
i've been a big fan of slots over blanks, if you plan on doing any time of tracking with your car.
I know Icemark's an ardent opponent of SS brake lines, but I went against his advice and bought them anyway since it's not like I hear of lines breaking everyday.
I know Icemark's an ardent opponent of SS brake lines, but I went against his advice and bought them anyway since it's not like I hear of lines breaking everyday.
Trending Topics
07-06-07, 02:15 PM
#10
No rotary, no problems?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dubuque, IA
Posts: 1,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do plan on track time, but very little. This car is a daily driver 95% of the time. I don't want to get slotted for the point that pad life is reduced quite a bit, and cross drilled have the chance of cracking. Pads are something that I know you can go expensive on and it pays off. I have heard of the SS lines leaking, but if it's not as bad as you guys say it is, I'll give them a try and see how I like them. I know they're not that expensive for a set of 4. I'm sure I'll probably get them from Mazdatrix since I'm a very very happy customer of their company, and I'm sure they're not very expensive either. So, who all sells the sets of them besides Mazdatrix? Also, what's a good company to go with for pads and rotors and what types should I be looking at?
07-06-07, 11:31 PM
#11
if you track sporadically (i.e. once or twice a year), stick with the OEM rubber lines.
Pads: For street use Porterfield R-4S, Hawk HPS (Dusty and Squeals) or anything else in that class
Rotors: I'm running Power Slot Cryo's, normal power slots are fine. For blanks, $30 NAPA rotors are perfectly sufficient stopping power on the street.
Pads: For street use Porterfield R-4S, Hawk HPS (Dusty and Squeals) or anything else in that class
Rotors: I'm running Power Slot Cryo's, normal power slots are fine. For blanks, $30 NAPA rotors are perfectly sufficient stopping power on the street.
07-07-07, 05:34 PM
#14
Lives on the Forum
It's total BS that blanks don't work well for track use or that slotted is better.
At lest 95% of all amateur racers use blanks with no ill effects or performance loss compared to slotted. I use blanks at the track with R's and it's more than enough to lock the tires at 100mph+, it doesn't fade, pads last many weekends and its got good feel, what more can you ask for?
For the street you don't need anything fancy, just parts store pads have been more than enough for me for years, even with autocrossing and so on, just don't try to go racing on the street and it's fine.
For the track at first you can usually get away with performance pads, but you'll eventually want/need real race pads and you will need high temp fluid. With race pads it's a good idea to use different rotors than with street pads, also, then you'll have a spare set to bring with you to the track.
As for SS lines, I bought Corksport, they're DOT approved, are sheathed and are cheap. They're good quality and seriously, how many FIRST HAND reports have you heard of lines rupturing, I've only seen a few, and that's with thousands and thousands of people using them.
At lest 95% of all amateur racers use blanks with no ill effects or performance loss compared to slotted. I use blanks at the track with R's and it's more than enough to lock the tires at 100mph+, it doesn't fade, pads last many weekends and its got good feel, what more can you ask for?
For the street you don't need anything fancy, just parts store pads have been more than enough for me for years, even with autocrossing and so on, just don't try to go racing on the street and it's fine.
For the track at first you can usually get away with performance pads, but you'll eventually want/need real race pads and you will need high temp fluid. With race pads it's a good idea to use different rotors than with street pads, also, then you'll have a spare set to bring with you to the track.
As for SS lines, I bought Corksport, they're DOT approved, are sheathed and are cheap. They're good quality and seriously, how many FIRST HAND reports have you heard of lines rupturing, I've only seen a few, and that's with thousands and thousands of people using them.
07-08-07, 01:14 AM
#15
Black91n/a makes a good point, the biggest difference comes from racing fluid and pad choice.
Personally speaking, I use slotted since I like to emulate what the professional GT cars are using though i realize that their pads and material are much different than what I use.
Personally speaking, I use slotted since I like to emulate what the professional GT cars are using though i realize that their pads and material are much different than what I use.
07-08-07, 06:08 AM
#16
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
The real myth is that there's a significant improvement from fitting SS lines. There's a significant improvement from fitting new lines, whether stock or SS, but the actual performance difference between new rubber lines and new SS lines is very little, particularly for a street car.
07-08-07, 07:58 AM
#17
The real myth is that there's a significant improvement from fitting SS lines. There's a significant improvement from fitting new lines, whether stock or SS, but the actual performance difference between new rubber lines and new SS lines is very little, particularly for a street car.
Could be true, I just can't confirm from personal experience- especially on a car with boosted brakes, which seems to dampen brake feel for me anyway.
What I can relate from personal experience though is the reliability of SS lines- I've never had a set fail (I've probably built/installed close to a hundred sets on RR bikes and various cars, so I have a modicum of experience with 'em).
I find it somewhat odd that everyone drools/approves of fuel systems strung with custom built SS lines but simultaneously consider similarly built brake lines to be failure-prone.
07-08-07, 09:01 AM
#18
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
I find it somewhat odd that everyone drools/approves of fuel systems strung with custom built SS lines but simultaneously consider similarly built brake lines to be failure-prone.
07-08-07, 09:18 AM
#19
Wheel wells are relatively benign environments actually.
Worst case scenarios...
-brake line failure: loss of stopping power except for mechanical parking brake
-fuel line failure: possible engine fire
Six of one, half dozen of the other, I'd say.
07-08-07, 11:07 AM
#21
This has been covered before, and you can search for more info. But I'll summarize. Brake upgrades do 2 things:
1. Prevents brake fade from heat build-up. This is usually an issue on the track but not on the street. Upgrades include drilled/slotted rotors and high temperature brake fluid. Drilling and slotting will weaken the rotors, though slotting weakens them less. Most people's drilled/slotted rotors don't break later on, but it's still a risk.
2. Improves braking response. Grippy pads, large rotors, calipers (?) and other such upgrades provide more braking force with less pedal force. SS lines also improve response because they make it harder for the brake lines to expand. Expanding brake lines absorb a little pedal force. All of these do not usually decrease stopping distances, b/c the wheel grip usually gives out first.
To decrease stopping distances you need to improve the contact of your wheels with the road. For that you need a firmer suspension and stickier tires. As an example, the Ford Focus is cheapo all around. It has rear drum brakes, small front disc brakes, etc. Its tires aren't all that special, even. But it has a nice suspension, and its stopping distances are much shorter than other american cars with poor handling.
That said, changing old brake fluid is always a good idea. Water and air build up can greatly worsen both #1 and #2 above. If it's really old it could damage brake system components or reduce #1 or #2 to dangerously poor levels.
1. Prevents brake fade from heat build-up. This is usually an issue on the track but not on the street. Upgrades include drilled/slotted rotors and high temperature brake fluid. Drilling and slotting will weaken the rotors, though slotting weakens them less. Most people's drilled/slotted rotors don't break later on, but it's still a risk.
2. Improves braking response. Grippy pads, large rotors, calipers (?) and other such upgrades provide more braking force with less pedal force. SS lines also improve response because they make it harder for the brake lines to expand. Expanding brake lines absorb a little pedal force. All of these do not usually decrease stopping distances, b/c the wheel grip usually gives out first.
To decrease stopping distances you need to improve the contact of your wheels with the road. For that you need a firmer suspension and stickier tires. As an example, the Ford Focus is cheapo all around. It has rear drum brakes, small front disc brakes, etc. Its tires aren't all that special, even. But it has a nice suspension, and its stopping distances are much shorter than other american cars with poor handling.
That said, changing old brake fluid is always a good idea. Water and air build up can greatly worsen both #1 and #2 above. If it's really old it could damage brake system components or reduce #1 or #2 to dangerously poor levels.
Last edited by ericgrau; 07-08-07 at 11:13 AM.
07-09-07, 03:13 AM
#23
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by clokker
Wheel wells are relatively benign environments actually.
Worst case scenarios...
-brake line failure: loss of stopping power except for mechanical parking brake
-fuel line failure: possible engine fire
Six of one, half dozen of the other, I'd say.
-brake line failure: loss of stopping power except for mechanical parking brake
-fuel line failure: possible engine fire
Six of one, half dozen of the other, I'd say.
If I had to choose between hitting the brakes at 120km/h to slow for a tight bend and feeling the pedal go to the floor, or pulling over to the side of the road (using the brakes) and watching my car burn, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the one with no chance of bodily harm or death. I'm not claiming anything regarding SS lines by that, I'm simply saying your two scenarios are not "six of one, half dozen of the other". Not even close...
07-09-07, 04:05 AM
#24
so should i pull the trigger and buy corksport or mazdatrix stainless lines or should i stay OEM?
Which one is more expensive? I'm doing entire brake system. HPS pads are sitting in my room and i'm going to machine rotors and replace the master cylinder, (also toyo proxes T1S tires are going on along with my eibach springs and tokico blues ^_^)
Which one is more expensive? I'm doing entire brake system. HPS pads are sitting in my room and i'm going to machine rotors and replace the master cylinder, (also toyo proxes T1S tires are going on along with my eibach springs and tokico blues ^_^)
Last edited by staticguitar313; 07-09-07 at 04:08 AM. Reason: dunno
07-09-07, 05:58 AM
#25
No offence, but I think you're out of your frickin' mind. If I had to choose between hitting the brakes at 120km/h to slow for a tight bend and feeling the pedal go to the floor, or pulling over to the side of the road (using the brakes) and watching my car burn, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the one with no chance of bodily harm or death. I'm not claiming anything regarding SS lines by that, I'm simply saying your two scenarios are not "six of one, half dozen of the other". Not even close...
If I had to choose between hitting the brakes at 120km/h to slow for a tight bend and feeling the pedal go to the floor, or pulling over to the side of the road (using the brakes) and watching my car burn, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the one with no chance of bodily harm or death. I'm not claiming anything regarding SS lines by that, I'm simply saying your two scenarios are not "six of one, half dozen of the other". Not even close...Although we could play Godzilla v. Mothra all night long, it's interesting that the only recent real world case of brake failure reported here was McHack's and he did manage to retain control and stop safely.
I wonder if he would prefer the fire/burn to the ground scenario as well.
@static...The Corksport and Mazdatrix line kits are priced within a few bucks of each other and I never priced Mazda stock hoses but would imagine that they fall in the same ballpark.
Basically, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three...dare I say it again?..."Six of one, half dozen of another".