7fold

i have heard only good things about the redline products.

Derek King

iTrader: (2)

true that.

Derek King

iTrader: (2)

true that

SpooledupRacing

I have never used red-line oil.. but their gear lube is quality thats for sure...

MazdaMike02

iTrader: (4)

Royal Purple, AMSoil, Redline or you can buy Joe Gibbs Racing High Performance synthetic right from Joe Gibbs NASCAR shop.

blwn rtr 89'

iTrader: (5)

Oil is Killing our cars Part I

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use.

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated.
For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

SpooledupRacing

well ELF exceeds all the US specs I will have to look into it but I am preaty sure they contain the needed stuff to not cause this...

Again Elf is keeping internals ALOT cleaner then most us spec synthetic oil...

I am sure since normally the european industries seem to be further ahead in the auto market that they have not only thought of this but cured this problem well ahead of time...

scathcart

Total bullshit. Oil "grime" is the failure product oil worked outside of its intended design. Oil overheating, combustion chamber blowby, and contamination from water vapour absorbed from the atmosphere cause the oil to darken and become dirty. Sludge build-up on the bottom of the oil pan is caused by the oil gelling, which is caused by wtaer contamination, oil overheating, and most importantly: extended periods without an oil change.
Any particle large enough to cause damage to the engine will be taken out of the flow by the oil filter.
The "grime" that appears is a product of the oil itself. By using an oil designed for the operating parameters of the engine (such as a good synthetic), building an engine with tight side and corner seal clearances and using a high quality oil filter and your oil should come out spotless between oil changes.
I clearance my side seals very tight, and with 5000 km oil change intervals, the oil looks the same as it did the day it went in, with no build-up of sludge on any of the engine internals.

RX7Tuner.

SpooledupRacing

I'm sorry you are wrong..

There is one thing you never took into consideration.. what about piston engines...

you don't want clean oii...

If you are building an engine everything is clean.. it should break down and get dirty looking HOWEVER if you change your oil and your engine has 60K and your oil still looks clean your oil is not doing your engine any good.. you want very dirty oil at 3-4K (changing intervals) why this is because it will pull any of the build up and grim off the seals, engine components, in the nooks and crannies etc...

Why do u think older engines usually leak when u use synthetic oil in them... because the synthetic oil will pull the build up on the inside of the surfaces where gaskets meet (head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, oil pan gaskets etc and a quality oil will pull the grim out of those nooks that are plugging up the oil leaks.. THEN u get leaks..

People think they cannot use synthetic oil in older engine because they cause leaks meaning the synthetic oil is bad for their engine WHEN in essence the oil is doing good things to the oder engine by getting the grim out of the engine...

scathcart

I clearance my side seals to 0.001" (less than the FSM recommends). Its is just enough for the side seals to move freely.
A very careful initial break-in is required to prevent the side seals from breaking from thermal expansion, but the side seals quickly wear into the corner seals, as is seen on the corner seals during tear-down. The results are minimal blowby, minimal oil contamination, and higher cranking compression.
Some racing teams use this, others cannot afford the lengthly break-in period and negate the fractional peak power difference.
This lack of blowby, combined with a good oil filter and synthetic oil, and the oil remains spotless.

You can always tell the condition of the side seal clearance by the oil colour during an oil change, or simply by spinning the engine by hand.

scathcart

Funny then, that the upon later disassembly of said engines, the internal components are not coated in this so called "grime" that you speak of. If the oil isn't dirty, and the oil isn't doing its job, and the "grime" is not remaining inside the engine, where do you propose its going?

Synthetics tend to leak in older engines due to the characteristics of synthetic oil. People notice oil leaks on the ground, when their car is parked and not running. Synthetic oils don't increase as significantly in viscosity at lower temperatures, as conventional oil does. Thus, on a cold engine, a synthetic oil will be flow and leak from the engine because it has a much lower viscosity (despite the same weight). If your theory on the desposits being removed by synthetic oil were true causing oil leaks, then reverting back to conventional oil or changing to a hgiher viscosity oil would not instantly correct the problem. This is also the reason why 75W90 synthetic will pour so much easier than 75W90 conventional oil at the same room temperature.

Oil turns brown as it oxidizes. Good oil at proper operating temperature for its design will not oxidize in 5000 kms. Synthetics do not break down and oxidize as readily as conventional oil does at higher temperatures.

scathcart

The "removal of grime" you mention is where I have my problem with your story. "Grime" should not exist in an engine to be removed. Good oil, proper oil change schedule, and proper internal clearances and there's no grime.

If you're talking about tired, worn-out engines, then this is a whole 'nuther discussion, but since we're on the topic of (expensive) high performance synthetic oils, we usually tend to run them in good condition engines.

DavidHolmesIII

I probably have the same chart you do. Its a matter of interpretation. The owners manual has 20W-50 as a recommendation of 80 degrees F. I run 10W-50, staring temps around 60 degrees F. Is it different for an NA or something?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Oil breakdown makes sludge, but so does combustion. Unless you have an engine without any combustion, you will get sludge and grime. So a good thing (crud removal) and a bad thing (crud production) have the same symptoms. Just don't judge an oil by its color. The proper way to check the condition of your oil is to rub it between your fingers and feel for grit. Also smell for a burnt odor. Either of those mean you should probably change it. A good oil with a good oil filter will be dark to some degree with little or no grit and low in odor when you change it. That doesn't mean it is or isn't a good track/HP/etc. oil though. That means it's still fresh and usable; i.e., it hasn't been ruining your engine (well, not much more than it did when new anyway).

I wouldn't use 10w-50, (low)w(high), etc., but they're ok. 10w30 and 20w50 are best to avoid excessive viscosity additives taking the place of your oil. The temp ranges overlap quite a bit, so either is fine year round for most people. Dunno why owners and vendors advocate 20w50 in a turbo. Thicker oil clings and seals better, thinner oil lubricates and flows better. So I could make a guess.

zbrown

WTF????????


If anything it may cause leaks by switching to synthetic in some engines because it can shrink certain gasket/seal material

SpooledupRacing

no oil "shrinks" seals.. that is a misconception...

synthetic oil does a good job at cleaning engines that it pulls build up from the broken cracks in old deals that is what causes leaks...

10W50 is AWSOME..

DavidHolmesIII

I used 10W40 for years until I got on here and got about 5 different opinions.
I made a compromise with the 10W50. Starting temps going to reach 90+ here soon. Any rock solid answers on the best weight/viscosity best for low mileage engines? <17,000

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Don't worry about it. Like most other oil things that people talk about forever, it's a small factor. If it's that hot all the time I'd go 20w50. You're not supposed to use 10w30 if it's above 80 all the time. Otherwise I'd use 10w30 on an NA engine that doesn't have any problems. If you go 20w50 you can stick with it even in the winter, unless there's month where it's below 20 all the time. Again, either one will probably work fine year round. Even 10w50/10w40/5w30/etc. would work ok. If the temps go from insanely hot to insanely cold in your area 10w40 or 10w50 may even be the better option. We're really splitting hairs here. A rotary is more likely to fail from putting the oil drain plug in way too loose than it is from wear or crud building up. And the drain plug falling out is far from the most common cause of rotary failure (overheating or detonation is).

mario1386

one q? im in florida so the temperture is ussually hot and i use 20w-50 syntectic blend is it good to use it?or should i use full syntectic?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Go API certified 20w50 non-synthetic or use a good synthetic like those listed in the FAQ. Bad synthetics might cause deposits to buildup in a rotary over time. I'm thinking maybe I should stay out of these threads. But the nuts around here panicked me a long time ago and I read waaay too much on oil, only to find that while some may be better options you usually can't go wrong.

87 t-66

iTrader: (133)

what about some re-amemiya oil?

SpooledupRacing

I would love to buy some of that lol... where can I buy that lol....

87 t-66 to come in and end the thread!!!!

RE oil FTW hands down shut up

/THREAD

87 t-66

iTrader: (133)

Evil Aviator

Did you read it? Heaven forbid that our rotary engines fail due to valve and camshaft wear, lol. Seriously though, there may be issues with rotary engines, but I am not aware of any documentation of this, and I am not going to worry about it until there is proof.

The older formulas of Group IV synthetic oil did shrink some seals. I think all of the manufacturers fixed this problem around the late 80's.

Non-synthetic Castrol GTX 20W-50 works great in Florida (I used to live there). Unless you have a race car, just use synthetic oil in the transmission and differential. I have also had good luck with synthetic bearing grease.

Where do you guys find all this ricer oil? It makes me feel like getting into the business. What kind of slick labels would make you buy my over-priced oil? I need a good retirement plan, lol.

OK, that makes more sense. I am glad to hear that Elf didn't switch over to Group III like half of the other brands. The industry changes so much that it is impossible to stay on top of things.

What? I never would have thought that Mazda would approve their own synthetic oil! What a shocker... not so much.