KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

I think the cost in tires becomes almost equal when you factor in that he will be using crappy tires. There is nothing that says you can't slide around corners and be fast, if you can master the driving style then go for it but good luck.

If you are on stock (lowered) alignment then your car will suck for performance driving, drifting or not. You're probably sitting at less than -1* of camber in the front and over -2* in the rear which is highly prone to understeer. A staggered wheel and tire setup is a horrible idea and will make this even worse. Toe in does not necessarily mean "better cornering", there is no such thing as "better", its all compromise. It gives more high speed stability at the cost of steering response. I'm also not sure that I would get stiffer rear springs, that would be suicide. Most people don't even run equal spring rates due to the difference in geometry in the rear. SCCA RX7 drivers don't run equal spring rates and still remove their rear sway bar to reduce oversteer.

I can nitpick through your posts to point out statements that prove you can benefit from learning more, or you an take my advice and do so. From my experience a street course is great for tuning, testing and shakedown but you will learn far more at an autocross or track event.

theeliteone3

I'm sorry I meant increase toe-out not toe-in. Naturally camber settings should be changed from stock when wheel setup and suspension is no longer stock. But take a look at RE Amemiya and other tuners Touge cars. They often use staggered setups with equal spring rates for front and rear. At times they even use higher spring rates in the rear than in the front! Stiffer rear springs are not suicide if you have the correct wheel and tire setup, camber adjusted accordingly, and a little thing called downforce via a properly adjusted rear wing.

Blitanicle99

Hold on, to my understanding Toe in, meaning to point the front part of your tires inward would increase your turning because the outside tire doesn't resist much. And Toe out, meaning to put the front of the tires more outward would decrease cornering because the outside tire almost drags while turning. However, when in high speed the Toe Out would increase stability because the car cannot jerk around because of the inward Toe.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

toe-out promotes turn-in at the cost of stability.

toe-in is the other way around.

It's the inside tire that matters, not the outside.

After the car is already in the corner, toe settings don't matter nearly as much as camber settings do.

Don't believe me? Next time you get an alignment, ask for 0.5 degrees of toe out on each wheel, and try to drive it on the highway. The car will be skitterish at every bump, to the point of dangerously unstable at speed.

theeliteone3

"Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner."

Source: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

Time to re-educate yourself, my friend.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Ah. I think camber settings should be changed regardless of wheel and tire setup. Simple physics that during a turn centrifugal force acting on the chassis forces the outer wheels to tilt toward the road surface (massive amounts of + camber) and the Mac. strut suspension design does nothing to counteract it. The reduced contact patch of course leads to the front tires losing traction and results in understeer. Stock alignments have ~0 camber in the front usually and a little negative in the rear since understeer is considered safer than oversteer. You are really almost unleashing the handling capability when dialing in the suspension, similar to turning the boost up on a stock turbo. I drove my car ~5k miles with a new stock alignment and Falken Zeix 512s with weekly trips to the local twisies. The outer edge of the tires was completely bald while the inside and middle hadn't even reached the wear indicators.

I found the Jap. setups interesting also. Besides the fact that them being tuning shops allow them to test and tune with different parts, my understanding was that they take advantage of the added traction of the staggered setup and dial out the rest of the suspension to compensate for the bigger footprint in the rear which is good for high powered cars. I don't see why you would do this on an NA car, however. Especially with spring rate being something thats not as easily changed as sway bar stiffness, alignment, tire pressures, etc. Dialing in the alignment right or even getting a thick rear sway bar is a lot cheaper and more practical for the budget-minded grassroots racer than switching the springs and getting wider wheels and tires IMO. But if you ever try them be sure to report back with results, I remember researching this a while back and losing interest or being convinced otherwise for some reason.

To help you understand the effects of toe changes:

"With the steering wheel centered, toe-in causes the wheels to tend to roll along paths that intersect each other at a point along the central longitudinal axis of the car. Under this condition, the wheels are at odds with each other, and no turn results." The way I understand it, imagine having a massive amount of toe in, then imagine one wheel hitting a big bump. It would take more steering input for the wheel to have toe out (point in a direction away from the car) than if it were at 0 toe or toe out.

With toe out both the wheels want to turn (since they are pointing outward) but because the force is equal the car doesn't turn. Even the slightest bit of toe out will send the car into a turn (until you correct it with steering).

It takes a while to understand suspension, it did for me at least. Best way to understand it sometimes is to communicate with the car and feel what it is doing in a turn.

theeliteone3

I Agree. I tend to think in terms of higher powered cars and am somewhat non-budget minded when it comes to car performance.


Great explanation.

FRFC3S

iTrader: (24)

Sooo... more knowledge?

Roen

iTrader: (2)

What else do you need to know?

Standard street camber alignment should be around 0 to -2.0 degrees, normally between -1.0 and -1.5 degrees.

Performance / track alignments are usually set between -2.0 and -4.0 degrees, depending on road surface, for coilover & camber plate equipped cars.

Caster is usually set within stock specs for the street, and as positive as you can for performance / track on caster plate equipped cars.

Toe is usually set slightly inwards, about 1/4" total toe-in, evenly split between the wheels (1/8" toe-in each wheel) for standard street driving.

For autocross, it can be set anywhere from 0 to 1/4" total toe-out, sacrificing straight-line stability for increased turn-in, due to the low speed nature of autox.

For track driving, it can be set anywhere from 1/8" total toe-in to 1/4" total toe-out, depending on your driving skills, the speeds that you experience, and the amount of stability vs. turn-in that you desire. It's a balancing act. I ran my NA FC with 1/4" total toe-out and my max speed down the front straight was around 110, to give an example. A higher powered car that could hit 150 or 160 mph on the same straight may want slightly more toe-in, depending on how ballsy the driver is.

That's pretty much the three dimensions of wheel alignment, angle (toe) , tilt sideways (camber), and tilt forward and backwards (caster).

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Yes there is. A tire that's slipping cannot generate as much cornering force as one that's sticking.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

that's true 99% of the time, but there are some bias ply slicks, especially older ones, that corner better with a lot of slip angle than without any. The old Group A Skyline R32's were notorious for frequently going *** out, for example. Nothing extreme, like drifting today, but definitely not 4 tires rolling in the direction of the tread.

wrankin

I'd like a show of hands here for everyone who is running bias-ply slicks on the street or a track? (anyone except Howard Coleman, that is... )

And a heavy slip angle is way different than tire squeaking Doreefto-Man, which unfortunately is the mental image that many of these kids have in mind when they try and justify "it is faster" based upon what they saw Doc Hudson do in Cars.

Of course I'm so ancient I had to go and google to find out what "Touge" was...

-b

stevensimon

iTrader: (11)

READ THIS.. DIPSHIT.

Front spring rate increase:
More under steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; reduces front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: terminal under steer; front of car hops in corners; excessive wheel spin on inside front tire on FF cars.

Front spring rate decrease:
Less under steer; decreases proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; increases front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of to much adjustment: Too much over steer; over steer then under steer if spring is so soft that the car bottoms out on lean, car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Rear spring rate increase:
More over steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not increased; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed.
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: too much over steer; sidestep hop in corners; twitchy; pretty scary.

Rear spring rate decrease:
Less over steer: decreases proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not changed; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car under steers; if way to soft car under steers then over steers as car bottoms out on lean; car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Front anti-roll bar stiffer: more under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: terminal under steer; lifts inside front tire off the ground witch can cause massive wheel spin on FF cars; also not good for most effective tire usage as inside tire is now doing nothing.

Front anti-roll bar softer: less under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: overstate scary; more like fun

Rear anti-roll bar stiffer: more over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Big-time over steer. Can cause inside rear tire to lift off the ground.

Rear anti-roll bar softer: less over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: under steer; slow and boring

Front tire pressure higher: less under steer by reducing slip angels on most tires
Usable adjustment: up to 55psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction- tire crowned so more under steer; adds wheel spin in FF cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out

Front tire pressure lower: more under steer by increasing slip angles on most tires
Usable adjustment: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up.

Rear tire pressure higher: less over steer by reducing slip angles on most tires
Usable range: up to 45psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction—tire is crowned so more over steer; bad wheel spin on FR cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out.

Rear tire pressure lower: more over steer by incresing slip angles on most tires.
Usable range: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up

More negative camber front: less under steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load.
Usable range: up to 3.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: poor braking; car is road crown sensitive; twitchy; front tires wear on inside edge

More negative camber rear: less over steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load. More rear grip
Usable range: up to 2.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: more over steer; car feels twitchy in back; tires wear out on inside edge; less breakaway warning when limit is exceeded.

Ride height to low (typical beginner mistake): car is twitchy with unpredictable dynamics. Bump steer make you life miserable.
Usable range: usually 1.5-2.0 inches lower then stock unless car has been modified to go lower.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: everything that could possibly go wrong: sudden over/under steer; twitchy due to bump steer; very harsh ride; premature tire wear.

Toe in – front: car is stable going straight. Turn in is average
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car has slow twitchiness under braking; feels odd; kills outside edge of tires

Toe out – front: Car turns in well; works pretty well on FF car as they tend to toe-in under load.
Usable range: 0-1/4 inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Car is really twitchy under braking; car wanders on straight road; kills inside edge of tire

Toe in – rear: car is less likely to over steer when the throttle is lifted
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: weird, slow, rocking movement in back; feels slow but still unstable; wears outside edge of tires.

Toe out – rear: Helps car rotate useful in low speed and slalom courses; very common on FF pro rally cars.
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: not to good for street driving; causes lift throttle over steer; makes violent side to side rocking motions in the rear; tie wears on inside more.

Positive front caster: helps stability; suspension will get more negative camber when turning; reducing positive caster reduces steering effort. (Negative caster is not usable)
Usable range: 4-9 degrees positive
Symptoms of too much adjustment: can increase under steer especially in cars with wide low-profile tires. Can increase steering effort.

Single adjustable shock stiffer: Better turn in; better transient response; causes slower onset of over/under steer by slowing weight transfer depending on what end of the car is adjusted.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: suspension becomes unresponsive; ride gets harsh; car skips over bumps, loosing traction; Causes a big delay in weight transfer resulting in strange handling like under steer then late corner stage over steer.

Single adjustable shock softer: slower transient response; quicker onset of over/under steer
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car oscillates due to under dampened spring motion, like a boat. Car gets twitchy in turns. Feels unstable.

and if you still are confused with suspension and terminoligy then read it again. if you are still confused about your "touge" monster then sell your car before you kill someone