J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

What for? You don't have enough HP to need it.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

On the contrary, I believe the half cage that bolts to the FLOOR and the rear strut towers is fine as long as you mount it well, as the "Main" part of it is welded together. As already mentioned, the rollbar is enough for most, and it provides a mounting point for a harness.

If you are actually considering a bolt in front part of the cage as an option, you dont need it. If you really needed a full cage, you would get a custom weld in one that goes through the dash, and has reinforcement plates on the A pillars, etc.

I'm planning to buy a bunch of 4130cromolly and a mig, and then make half cage that is actually functional. I need safety, a harness mount, and a camera mount. Plus, I will be running a race bucket, so dont need to recline my seat!

The bitch about it all, is that you can drill holes in the floor to bolt a cage in, take it out, and have a usable cage, but holes in the body. If you weld it in, you can cut it out, and it wont be usable anymore, but you grind down the left over pipe on the mounting points, and still have a usable chassis!

So, moral is: Good, hole free chassis > a pile of tubes.




EDIT: If you are circuit racing, or just being a bit dumb in the canyons, it doesnt matter how much HP you have, you can die just as easily with 90 as you can with 500. Example: What would you rather put a cage in? The OG mini cooper, or a 400hp z28 camaro? See my point? You hit a deer in the camaro, you will be ok, it might dent you bumper a bit, but no major worries. You hit a deer in an old *** mini, and it might flip and fly off the road, and land in a tree!

carbonRX

ouch! i wanna look. but at the end of the day im just doing what asterisk is.

Black91n/a

A bolt in roll bar is fine, but if you need a cage then you really should weld it in, as bolt in ones seem to be a little light on reinforcement, like in the door bar area, and I don't even know if they're still legal, IIRC the Autopower one has but one door bar.

I've got a bolt in race bar, I'm 6'3" tall and I can put the seat in exactly the same place after as I did before, it's fine riding in the passenger seat too. I'll run into the storage bins before I run into the bar, but that might be different if I didn't like to run the seat slid all the way back.

One bonus of bolt in is that it's fast and you don't have to take everything out to prevent it from catching on fire.

Also, if the Cusco roll bars are of any indication, their cages will never pass tech.

battle cattle

I hope your not serious.... cuz that is NOT rollcage material and you would need a bender, notcher, and some experience in welding. Plus if you get into an accident with a cage and your not wearing a helmet (with padding) it will **** you up.

Don't just buy a cage for looks or to meet some rules for the weekend if its your daily driver. Can you do everything I am saying not to? yes... but ill adviseable

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

A roll cage, when properly installed, is only as good as the associated safety equipment required for it (5 Pt. Harness, Helmet). Anyone that puts a full cage in and goes and drives around on the street without proper safety gear is asking to get their head cracked open like an egg.

My car has a cage because it HAS to per my class requirements (NHRA, 10.99 or quicker). If you all are just stuffing cages in your cars because it "looks cool", then you are placing yourselves in far greater risk then you think.

But, have fun! I personally think my cage ruined my car.

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

It's O.K. guys, CarbonRX is mixing medications again...

micah

Yes.. it is.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

... 4130 cromolly steel is not roll cage material? Then, may I ask, what is, if you are so smart? It IS cage material, dumbass...

Also, if I made a post like that, why do you automatically think "noob" or "ricer" and make ASSumptions about everything? I know how to build a cage, and what tools I need, I can weld mig and tig well, took a welding course at my local college.(more practice never hurts through) I'm NOT going to put a roll bar in to look cool.

Was there ONE thing in there that talked about "Daily driver?" NOPE!.

You miss the part where I mentioned about the Non reclining FIA approved bucket and 5pt harness being installed as well? This is going to be quite a long time from now, when the car is no longer DD status. Another point: If I'm wearing my harness while driving, even withought a helmet, how the hell do I crack my head open on the cage? What do you mean? Or do you not wear seat belts when you drive on the street?

Sorry about having to be a bit mean, but I's sick of people, (as TED said) "Talking out their *******."

nos_fx

iTrader: (1)

I'm looking at the cage because it is safer for track days and auto X. I don't do any serious racing, so passing tech inspections is not a concern. It will be used with a 5 point harness and helmet on the track, but will be driven on the street some of the time.

Thanks for everyones help.

-Kyle

Black91n/a

With a cromolly cage you need to heat treat it after, not exactly practical for most people. That's why most cages are mild steel rather than molly.

For autocross I wouldn't worry about a cage or even a bar. For just open track days just a bar should be fine, shouldn't be getting tangled up with other cars and incidents are much less common and usually less serious. For street use a bar is as far as I'd ever go.

micah

I don't know man... When I was in the jeep scene before this, plenty of people made chromoly cages by themselves. I don't recall any "heat treating" being done. I've seen big ole exo-caged cherokees tumbling down moab rock faces with self-made chromoly cages. If its strong enough for moab.. its strong enough for a little ole RX-7.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I am not talking out my *******, as you so put it. I know what its like to have a car with a cage. Even if you are wearing your 5 points, they are bolted to the car, which can crumple in an accident. You still run the risk of hitting your head on the bar with no helmet installed.

micah

Agreed! Even with 1/2" foam padding those bars hurt like hell with any force. I stood up and hit my head on one, knocked me stupid. Rat cat attest to my stupidity.

battle cattle

Yes it is I looked it up and seems more widely spread than mild steel. However, I would NEVER put one in any car mild steel is the only way to go IMO


wow you took 1 welding course at your local college.... awesome but that in no way shape or form qualifies you to create a cage that could save your life or kill you.
Did I say if? yes i did but in your next response it IS your DD!
I don't care if you have a 5 pt harness, highback 1 piece racing seat. If your in an accident and don't have a helmet on you will as others have said "crack your head open like an egg". Also if you have your 5pt on and get into an accident and have multiple impacts your harness isn't rated for more than one. So your S.O.L.
you can be as mean as you want... but people are trying to help you. I atleast am trying to get across that a cage is very deadly if done wrong and can save your life at the same time. This is not something to be takin lightly but if you feel comfortable doing it... by all means go for it

small edit...

Roll cages should only be done in the highest quality... to me rally racing has the highest standards which is

Cold Drawn Seamless UNALLOYED carbon steel (containing a maximum of .3% Carbon)
with 1.75in x .095in main roll bar
and 1.5in x .095in lateral half-rollbars

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...df?Openelement

section 8.3.3

vipers

iTrader: (8)

hahaha... what a douche! way to give constructive advice!


there really isnt much i can add.... if its just for looks , if you need it per regulations/safety then by all means, get a cage

i had the autopower rollbar in my car (along with all the additional safety equipment).... but the install was very straightforward, and fit very well..... and they make great cages and rollbars, so bolt on or not, it'll save your ***!

woopadeedo

this thread makes my head hurt.

Black91n/a

I remembered reading something about sactionning body rules requiring that the welds be annealed or something to that effect when using alloy, to add strength. That doesn't mean that it can't be done without, it just means that it won't be as safe (brittle welds).

I could be wrong, it'll be a good idea to look in some rule books for their safety regs, at very least just for some guidance.

jgrewe

iTrader: (1)

To add to the "which tube is right" battle, I'll say that moly will only save you about .2 of a pound per foot and it costs almost twice as much as mild steel DOM. Since 1 3/4" .095 DOM is about $5 a foot last time I bought it, think about how expensive that main hoop third bend mistake will cost you.

And the welds on moly do need to be normalized(I think that's the term I've heard) if they aren't treated you just have mild steel in the area around the weld.

USS CJ

wow, a guy named "carbonRX" hating on a stranger for having nos in their name...SWEET

Guys, bolt in auto-power cages are fine according to the scca, and a bunch of half inch grade 8 bolts are pretty freakin strong. As long as you install it properly, it should be just fine.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Lol, looks like I lose.

The reason I wanted to use molly is because it's lighter and stronger than mild steel tubing, and yes, the welds need a special filler, and a little heat treating, but so what? I see your point about it being not worth it value wise, yes, and that probably prevents a lot of people from using it as a cage material, but the only REAL argument you guys gave is that WRC does not allow it. Now, THIS actually makes me weary, and I think they have good reason. Now if only I can find what exactly it is..... damn, I really want to know, because this is important.

Some more notes:
I said I would do a bar, not a full cage. The ride will be my DD for now, so bar would be fine. If I ever do put a FULL cage into a car, it will be my track car. Also, what you said about "multiple impacts" and being SOL. Ok, racing doesn't have multiple impact crashes? I am pretty damn shure I saw a TON in Nascar alone, the one time I ever watched it. So what are you trying to say?
Formula one, Rally racing where they go off a cliff and bounce around through the trees, flips, just generally VERY hard crashes. A LOT of those had more than one impact, so by that theory, wouldn't THEY all also be screwed? This is why I made the *** comment, because you bash someone, yet fail to explain things clearly even if the other person does want to learn something.

EDIT: With only the rear bar in place, and it being behind you and out of the way, how do you hit your head on it? I mean, you go forward, but the harness stops you, and you cant go backwards because the seat is in the way... so... can you please describe this to me?

EDIT#2: Also, I took the class to learn how to to weld things like a rollcage. Everybody starts somewhere, right? Also, if MY work fails, I have no one else to blame but me, if someone elses (who might be a much shittier welder as well) work fails, then it's their fault I get hurt. I would rather trust my own work unless I can get someone who can prove they "know their ****" so I won't have to worry. Perhaps that does sound a bit, wierd, but this is just my way of thinking.

Adding to the confusion: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...hrome-moly.asp

and: http://www.netwelding.com/Welding%204130.htm quite a bit of good info!

Black91n/a

If you spin and go backwards into something, then the seat back flexes or breaks and then you can hit. Either way, you should pad anything that's even close to your head.

If you have the facilities to do it properly and are willing to take the cost hit then that's fine. Mild steel is somewhat more ductile though, it'll bend more before it breaks, that might be why WRC doesn't allow it.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Ok. About mild steel: I will definitely consider using it. And yeah, I know from riding bmx, that cromoly can sometimes break instad of bending, but it wistands SO much higher impacts, and holds up SO muc better than mild steel frames, forkes, bars, etc. 4130 is THE material to use for bmx, and if you know anything about the scene, our bikes get abused VERY heavily, over and over again for periods of 2 years (usual time someone keeps a frame unless they damage it too bad) Street riders are also very tough on bikes, youtube "Edwin Delarosa" corey Martinez, etc, and then ask yourself, if cromolly wasnt up to par, would you realy do that 40ft drop to flat on your bike, which is made 80% from it? I know that this is very different from rollcages, and perhaps is not comparable, but it does help to show the picture on just how tough cromo is when welded right.

Seat flexing: Ok, FIA certification means that the seat can withstand certain impact forces. Hmm, is the flexing not accounted for then? Isnt this the reason behind dry carbon full buckets? I'm still confused. Padding: Yes, of course, that is one of the fundamentals of making a cage, and I already had that in mind as one of the things you need to do.

And also, can someone please explain the whole "your harness isnt rated for more than one impact" thing that was posted above? I am not looking to argue, or to say that I know everything, or to say others DONT know anything. NO, I am here to talk with people, share experiences, and learn something. Lets all use this palce for what it was mean for ok? I'm sorry I came off as an ignorant *******,yo.

Black91n/a

Well maybe the seat mount rips out, maybe the seat's degraded from UV exposure, maybe the impact is more than an FIA rating, but it should be pretty safe.

With the belts if you're in an impact they can stretch and then maybe next time they break, or they don't stretch and you're hurt worse. It's just a safety precaution.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Well, that makes sense now. Although... again, harnesses do seem to stand up to multiple impact wrecks pretty well. What I am getting at, is, I will 99% be alright in a single wreck, where there will be multiple hits... and then, were I to drive again, I would need to replace the harness due to stretching... except for, if I were in a multiple impact wreck, Im pretty shure the FC would be too totaled to repair and drive again... therefore, this doesnt make sense to me. Thanks for your imput. You seems very good at getting your point across with as little words as possible, that's a great skill to have!