ATTN Gurus - No spark or fuel
11-15-08, 07:30 AM
#51
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One thing I know for CERTAIN. The pinouts in the ORANGE plugs for a Turbo are not the same as for a Non Turbo. A lot are the same, but significant ones are not the same.
So you have a NON TURBO EM harness on the engine. The one that has fuel injector plugs, boost sensor plug, water thermo sensor plug. And the interior harness is Turbo. I'm not sure this is related to your problem in total or not.
An easy example are the two alternator wires in the Non Turbo harness on the engine (EM harness). On the stock turbo car there are no alt wires in that harness. The alt wires are in *another* harness. Soooo, the alt wires in that non turbo harness will end up mating with unrelated wires in the TURBO front harness. That is fairly easy to fix. But that serves as an example.
About the Solenoid Resistor Relay............it was for cars that used low impedence injectors. Those injectors that are of 2-3ohms value is you ohm across their two pins. They stopped using those low resistance injectors in June of 87. When they did that, they also got rid of the solenoid resistor package. So any car built prior to June 87 had no solenoid resistor and had high impedence injectors of approx 12ohms value.
I'd still be interested in what the reading on the white, two socket plug at the Lead coil would read if the two ORANGE plugs were pulled apart. Doing that won't effect the coil output....unless there's something in them that is pulling the voltage down. But I agree, I'd hate to have to pull those apart myself. Pain in the butt. It would be done just to see if that is related to the lack of batt voltage at the Lead coil assy. Later.
Let me know if I screwed up which harness are in/on the car.
So you have a NON TURBO EM harness on the engine. The one that has fuel injector plugs, boost sensor plug, water thermo sensor plug. And the interior harness is Turbo. I'm not sure this is related to your problem in total or not.
An easy example are the two alternator wires in the Non Turbo harness on the engine (EM harness). On the stock turbo car there are no alt wires in that harness. The alt wires are in *another* harness. Soooo, the alt wires in that non turbo harness will end up mating with unrelated wires in the TURBO front harness. That is fairly easy to fix. But that serves as an example.
About the Solenoid Resistor Relay............it was for cars that used low impedence injectors. Those injectors that are of 2-3ohms value is you ohm across their two pins. They stopped using those low resistance injectors in June of 87. When they did that, they also got rid of the solenoid resistor package. So any car built prior to June 87 had no solenoid resistor and had high impedence injectors of approx 12ohms value.
I'd still be interested in what the reading on the white, two socket plug at the Lead coil would read if the two ORANGE plugs were pulled apart. Doing that won't effect the coil output....unless there's something in them that is pulling the voltage down. But I agree, I'd hate to have to pull those apart myself. Pain in the butt. It would be done just to see if that is related to the lack of batt voltage at the Lead coil assy. Later.
Let me know if I screwed up which harness are in/on the car.
11-16-08, 08:31 AM
#54
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I'm about to give up. I don't think I can fix it from here.
But, that said, there is a difference in the pinouts in the EM harness that sits on the engine and connects to the ECU. Where the ORANGE plugs of the EM harness mate with the ORANGE plugs of the Front harness, some of those wires in those plugs will not mate correctley.
Ah heck, I've a 87 FSM that shows these plugs and which wires are different. I'll take a picture of the FSM pinouts and post it either here or another post.
But, that said, there is a difference in the pinouts in the EM harness that sits on the engine and connects to the ECU. Where the ORANGE plugs of the EM harness mate with the ORANGE plugs of the Front harness, some of those wires in those plugs will not mate correctley.
Ah heck, I've a 87 FSM that shows these plugs and which wires are different. I'll take a picture of the FSM pinouts and post it either here or another post.
11-16-08, 08:54 AM
#55
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The jpg is sorta self explanatory. Turbo and non turbo plugs have the same number of sockets/pins. The differences in the Turbo and Non Turbo are shown anywhere you see a ( ) around some letters. The ( ) indicates that in that socket is the color of the wire for a Turbo plug instead of what color is shown in the block below it.
And example is down in the lower left of the jpg where you see a (Y/W) indicating for a turbo. So say your turbo EM harness plug has a Y/W, well it will end up mating with a empty hole *** on the Non turbo front harness.
The Y/W is the wire from the water temperature sensor on the left of the engine. So if the engine started up, you'd have no water temp on the gauge.
And that (BrR) wire down there, is a wire coming off the boost sensor. So if you connect that plug to the non turbo front harness, the BrR will end up mating with a BW wire going to the ???? Engine fuse IF my memory serves. NOT a desirable thing to do.
It's not as grim as I make out. Just a few changes or swapping of wires in the plugs or actual cutting of a couple of useless wires.
I'd still suggest trying to disconnet those two ORANGE plugs and then check at the Lead coil for batt power. Can't hurt. Might help. Might not help. Your car is a little strange in that the main relay four wire plug can be jumpered and no real batt power shows up at the white Lead coil connector.
And example is down in the lower left of the jpg where you see a (Y/W) indicating for a turbo. So say your turbo EM harness plug has a Y/W, well it will end up mating with a empty hole *** on the Non turbo front harness.
The Y/W is the wire from the water temperature sensor on the left of the engine. So if the engine started up, you'd have no water temp on the gauge.
And that (BrR) wire down there, is a wire coming off the boost sensor. So if you connect that plug to the non turbo front harness, the BrR will end up mating with a BW wire going to the ???? Engine fuse IF my memory serves. NOT a desirable thing to do.
It's not as grim as I make out. Just a few changes or swapping of wires in the plugs or actual cutting of a couple of useless wires.
I'd still suggest trying to disconnet those two ORANGE plugs and then check at the Lead coil for batt power. Can't hurt. Might help. Might not help. Your car is a little strange in that the main relay four wire plug can be jumpered and no real batt power shows up at the white Lead coil connector.
11-18-08, 09:09 PM
#56
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Unplugged both orange connectors in the kick panel, now only getting .5VDC to leading coil connector. Can I run 2 wires directly to the leading coil from the MAIN relay outside of the harness to see if it changes anything?
11-22-08, 09:42 AM
#58
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Well the coil only gets one wire with batt voltage, so you wouldn't need two.
The engine still won't start if the ECU is'nt getting batt voltage on the pins 3I and 3J.
And you'd need to make sure the wires from the coil to the ECU are good (continuity with a meter) and the wires from the CAS to the ECU are good (continuity check).
To do that you'd also need both orange plugs connected back up.
I've given up on your car. I can't figure out WHY the coil isn't getting power from the MAIN relay to the small white plug on the coil. Like it's only a foot or so of wire b/t the two with no connectors inbetween.
The only other thought is that your battery is sooooo darn low, that when you put a small load like jumpering the four wires at the Main Relay, that small load is enough to drag the batt down to five volts. Maybe try another battery fully charged.
There's something about the wiring in your car that isn't kosher and, at least I can't figure it out from here. The wiring in these cars isn't that complicated, but something isn't connected up right (I guess, don't KNOW that
It's the Black/Yellow wire on the coils small white plug that delivers power. The other wire is the *trigger*wire from the ECU that triggers the ignitor inside the coil package to produce spark.
The CAS spins and sends an electrical signal to the ECU as to where the rotors are at a given time and the ECU in turn sends out the trigger signal to the coils. But that ECU needs the power input from pins 3I and 3J (actually you can lose the 3J and never know it, but it Should be there anyway).
The engine still won't start if the ECU is'nt getting batt voltage on the pins 3I and 3J.
And you'd need to make sure the wires from the coil to the ECU are good (continuity with a meter) and the wires from the CAS to the ECU are good (continuity check).
To do that you'd also need both orange plugs connected back up.
I've given up on your car. I can't figure out WHY the coil isn't getting power from the MAIN relay to the small white plug on the coil. Like it's only a foot or so of wire b/t the two with no connectors inbetween.
The only other thought is that your battery is sooooo darn low, that when you put a small load like jumpering the four wires at the Main Relay, that small load is enough to drag the batt down to five volts. Maybe try another battery fully charged.
There's something about the wiring in your car that isn't kosher and, at least I can't figure it out from here. The wiring in these cars isn't that complicated, but something isn't connected up right (I guess, don't KNOW that
It's the Black/Yellow wire on the coils small white plug that delivers power. The other wire is the *trigger*wire from the ECU that triggers the ignitor inside the coil package to produce spark.
The CAS spins and sends an electrical signal to the ECU as to where the rotors are at a given time and the ECU in turn sends out the trigger signal to the coils. But that ECU needs the power input from pins 3I and 3J (actually you can lose the 3J and never know it, but it Should be there anyway).
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-22-08 at 09:47 AM.
11-22-08, 09:56 AM
#59
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It might be worthwhile to check the voltage input/outputs on each wire of the ECU using these pages out of the FSM. To make things easier you can unbolt the ECU from its bracket so you can tilt the plugs up so you can backprobe the individual wires. Key to On, engine OFF (easy for you, humor). All plugs connected up.
Still, you won't get squat unless the Main Relay is pulled in. You need to fix that gnd for it.
Still, you won't get squat unless the Main Relay is pulled in. You need to fix that gnd for it.
11-22-08, 11:07 AM
#60
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Ok. Maybe there is a misunderstanding on my part. I read this post again, and realized I'm not on the same page as you are.
You say in this post, that you have batt voltage on the B/Y wire, but only 2-3 vdc on the coil. Just where on the coil are you measuring the 2-3 vdc? And have you checked out the coil itself to see if it's good? I'm curious how you get batt voltage on the black/yellow wire of the small white plug, but when it's connected up, you only get 2-3 vdc on the coil itself.
Or am I reading this wrong?
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-22-08 at 11:21 AM.
11-22-08, 12:37 PM
#61
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If your checking for Lead coil voltage on the coil assy, then yes, both of the small wires held on with 8mm nuts, should have batt voltage on them. As long as it's a stock coil system.
If you have a Crane CDI box on the car, then they won't have batt voltage on them at the stock coils assy.
If you have a Crane CDI box on the car, then they won't have batt voltage on them at the stock coils assy.
11-22-08, 11:33 PM
#62
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I am getting full voltage from the connectors at the MAIN relay, but only 2-3VDC at the WHITE 2 pin connector that goes TO the leading coil, not from the coil itself.
11-23-08, 04:20 AM
#63
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Pull the two white connectors off the TRAIL coil and try again. Something is pullng the voltage down. Can't be the battery because earlier you said the headlight assy's go up/down.
11-23-08, 05:00 AM
#64
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And or try this. Do the *jumpers* at the Main Relay four wire plug.
Check the voltage at the black/yellow wire on the Lead coils small two wire plug.
If still in the 2-3 vdc range, then return to the jumpers in the Main Relay plug.
Do not remove them, but put your meters positive lead on one of the bare wires (I assume there's just a bit of bare wire protruding from one of the jumper wires) and see if that wire Still has batt voltage on it, or is now down to the 2vdc you see on the Lead coil assy.
I just thought of something I saw on this forum a week ago. Under the TRAIL coil assy there is a BLACK/YELLOW wire that is connected to a condenser. This condenser is black in color, square in shape and has a hole in it so it can be bolted to the rear of the left strut tower.
See if that black condenser is bolted down and connected to the Black/Yellow wire. IF it is, then remove the black/yellow wire from it and let it dangle in the air, and go back and see if the 2-3 vdc has risen up to batt voltage.
LIke I say, this condenser should be bolted to the rear side of the left front strut tower. Down low on the tower.
It looks just like the condenser that goes to the oil pressure sender. I attached a jpg of the one for the oil presssure sender. It's bolted down on the clutch slave cylinder in this jpg. The one for the coil system is bolted to the rear of the left front strut tower. Has a single wire on it with a connector on the end of the wire.
Check the voltage at the black/yellow wire on the Lead coils small two wire plug.
If still in the 2-3 vdc range, then return to the jumpers in the Main Relay plug.
Do not remove them, but put your meters positive lead on one of the bare wires (I assume there's just a bit of bare wire protruding from one of the jumper wires) and see if that wire Still has batt voltage on it, or is now down to the 2vdc you see on the Lead coil assy.
I just thought of something I saw on this forum a week ago. Under the TRAIL coil assy there is a BLACK/YELLOW wire that is connected to a condenser. This condenser is black in color, square in shape and has a hole in it so it can be bolted to the rear of the left strut tower.
See if that black condenser is bolted down and connected to the Black/Yellow wire. IF it is, then remove the black/yellow wire from it and let it dangle in the air, and go back and see if the 2-3 vdc has risen up to batt voltage.
LIke I say, this condenser should be bolted to the rear side of the left front strut tower. Down low on the tower.
It looks just like the condenser that goes to the oil pressure sender. I attached a jpg of the one for the oil presssure sender. It's bolted down on the clutch slave cylinder in this jpg. The one for the coil system is bolted to the rear of the left front strut tower. Has a single wire on it with a connector on the end of the wire.
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-23-08 at 05:14 AM.
11-24-08, 11:29 AM
#65
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The coil condenser is shown in these two jpg. It's located on about the same level at that ground terminal JC-01 you were missing. Below the coils.
It has a single black wire on it that connects to a connector on the harness that has a black/yellow wire on it's end. That part isn't shown. A single bolt holds it on the chassis. The black/yellow is a power wire and is tied to the black/yellow that feed the lead and trail coil assy's.
It has a single black wire on it that connects to a connector on the harness that has a black/yellow wire on it's end. That part isn't shown. A single bolt holds it on the chassis. The black/yellow is a power wire and is tied to the black/yellow that feed the lead and trail coil assy's.
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-24-08 at 11:38 AM.
12-14-08, 02:43 AM
#66
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Well you said the pin outs are different between 87 and 88 for the orange connectors, right?
If that's the case, I might just get all 87 running gear, and not mix and match stuff.
If that's the case, I might just get all 87 running gear, and not mix and match stuff.
12-14-08, 08:51 AM
#67
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If I said that I was wrong. The 88/87 are the same in the orange plugs. There is a diffence b/t non turbo and turbo pinouts in the orange plugs.
I can't figure out why you don't have power to the coils when you have it TO the Main Relay from the EGI fuses in the engine bay, but for some unknown reason it can't get from the Main relay to the coils. There's no plug in between the two items to drop the voltage from batt voltage to zip. Other than the condenser in the last post I made.
And, I guess I should have mentioned that maybe one of the three coils is pulling the voltage down. Might remove all wires off the coils one at a time and see if you now have voltage on the wires. I mean the two wires held on with nuts on the coils themselves. I suppose I should have thought of that a long time ago.
That could be simplified a bit. Like disconnect the white plugs from the trail coil and then see if the voltage on the lead coil is good now. And vice versa with the trail coil assy.
So? Did you find the condenser in the jpg on my last post? The picture was a little dark. I was thinking that something got connected up to the condensers connector other than what should have been. NOT the connector on the condenser itself, but the single plug that the condensers wire gets connected to. THAT single connector would have a black/yellow wire on it and should only be connected to the condenser.
I can't figure out why you don't have power to the coils when you have it TO the Main Relay from the EGI fuses in the engine bay, but for some unknown reason it can't get from the Main relay to the coils. There's no plug in between the two items to drop the voltage from batt voltage to zip. Other than the condenser in the last post I made.
And, I guess I should have mentioned that maybe one of the three coils is pulling the voltage down. Might remove all wires off the coils one at a time and see if you now have voltage on the wires. I mean the two wires held on with nuts on the coils themselves. I suppose I should have thought of that a long time ago.
That could be simplified a bit. Like disconnect the white plugs from the trail coil and then see if the voltage on the lead coil is good now. And vice versa with the trail coil assy.
So? Did you find the condenser in the jpg on my last post? The picture was a little dark. I was thinking that something got connected up to the condensers connector other than what should have been. NOT the connector on the condenser itself, but the single plug that the condensers wire gets connected to. THAT single connector would have a black/yellow wire on it and should only be connected to the condenser.
12-14-08, 03:42 PM
#68
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Well the body harness is 87' turbo and the EFI harness is 88 NA, so wouldn't that mean there's a pin difference?
I'm going to go see if I can find the condenser in a little, it's freezing outside lol
I'm going to go see if I can find the condenser in a little, it's freezing outside lol
12-14-08, 05:30 PM
#69
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Actually, can't I just use my 87 T2 harness? That would eliminate the dash connector problems.
That way I would be using the 87 T2 harness, and the rest 88 NA stuff like the ECU, boost sensor, non vac boost sensor, and AFM.
That way I would be using the 87 T2 harness, and the rest 88 NA stuff like the ECU, boost sensor, non vac boost sensor, and AFM.
Last edited by w00t; 12-14-08 at 05:38 PM.
12-14-08, 05:57 PM
#70
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Yes, that would make a difference. The n/a EFI (I surrender) won't mate properly with a Turbo body harness.
****Actually, can't I just use my 87 T2 harness? That would eliminate the dash connector problems.
That way I would be using the 87 T2 harness, and the rest 88 NA stuff like the ECU, boost sensor, non vac boost sensor, and AFM.********************************************** ************************************************** **************
Yeah. Try that out.
That really bugs me about no 12vdc on the coils when the MainRElay is pulled in or its connector is jumpered.
12-14-08, 06:00 PM
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Me too man, I haven't touched this car since I got my S13, but I figured I gave myself enough time to cool off lol.
I'll swap the harness either tonight or tomorrow and see if that changes everything. I'm also going to go through all the connectors to make sure they're not corroded. Also going to finish connecting all the sensors and misc. ****.
I'll swap the harness either tonight or tomorrow and see if that changes everything. I'm also going to go through all the connectors to make sure they're not corroded. Also going to finish connecting all the sensors and misc. ****.
12-15-08, 01:58 PM
#72
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So yeah...
Got the NA harness out in like 15 minutes, put the T2 harness in, start connecting everything. "Hmm, the injector connectors look different." *Thinks for a moment*
"****!"
My T2 harness is low impedance, and the 88 engine is high. How did I forget that?! haha.
Do not pass go, do not collect $200..
Got the NA harness out in like 15 minutes, put the T2 harness in, start connecting everything. "Hmm, the injector connectors look different." *Thinks for a moment*
"****!"
My T2 harness is low impedance, and the 88 engine is high. How did I forget that?! haha.
Do not pass go, do not collect $200..
12-18-08, 07:17 PM
#73
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Are the only difference between high impedance and low impedance the injectors and solenoid resistor? Or are the ECU's different?
I ask because I want to know if I can run my low impedance T2 harness with low impedance injectors on my high impedance ECU (from an 88) and other running gear(BPS, MAF, etc.)
I ask because I want to know if I can run my low impedance T2 harness with low impedance injectors on my high impedance ECU (from an 88) and other running gear(BPS, MAF, etc.)
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