ATTN GURUs fuel injectors will not spray after s5 engine swap
11-19-04, 11:19 PM
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ATTN GURUs fuel injectors will not spray after s5 engine swap
i did an s5engine swap into an 88 rx7. the 88 was my son's car to which he blew the engine and tranny. i had an extra engine for my 90 rx7 so i used that. i found a post where the engine can be swapped the change of the front housing and all the sensors.
i have spark. i took out the injectors and tried to perform the fuel flow test as described in the fsm. i had fuel pressure but no flow.
i ran power to the injectors from the battery they opened (all 4 worked).when i put gas through the primary injector openings the car started until it burned off the fuel i put in.
i have a new battery and battery charger w/engine crank option. power to the spark is not in question.
i swapped the ecu (326) which worked before,for another ecu326 which is working. swapped air flow meter. confirmed the position of the CAS with the yellow mark on the engine pulling.
i grounded the pins at the ecu as wayne88 sugested.("Well, if you want to test this theory out real quick, just get to the ECU, and run some temporary jumper wires from those ECU pins (which on an '88 GXL would be 2R, 3A, and 3G) directly to a chassis ground near the ECU. .032 safety wire would work, or something similar. Crank her up, if she starts, then you've nailed the prob ")
no luck.
i am unable to flood the engine through the injectors.
what else can i do?
thanks
al
i have spark. i took out the injectors and tried to perform the fuel flow test as described in the fsm. i had fuel pressure but no flow.
i ran power to the injectors from the battery they opened (all 4 worked).when i put gas through the primary injector openings the car started until it burned off the fuel i put in.
i have a new battery and battery charger w/engine crank option. power to the spark is not in question.
i swapped the ecu (326) which worked before,for another ecu326 which is working. swapped air flow meter. confirmed the position of the CAS with the yellow mark on the engine pulling.
i grounded the pins at the ecu as wayne88 sugested.("Well, if you want to test this theory out real quick, just get to the ECU, and run some temporary jumper wires from those ECU pins (which on an '88 GXL would be 2R, 3A, and 3G) directly to a chassis ground near the ECU. .032 safety wire would work, or something similar. Crank her up, if she starts, then you've nailed the prob ")
no luck.
i am unable to flood the engine through the injectors.
what else can i do?
thanks
al
11-19-04, 11:25 PM
#2
are you sure it is an 88 engine? the S4s had low resistance injectors whereas the S5s had higher resistance injectors, i don't know whether this would cause no spray pattern at all or not but i'm sure someone trolling by can answer that.
edit: duh.... brain fart, that is an S4 engine in a S5, the resistance is different, you will need to swap the S5 injectors into the bad boy.. i would also probably do a search on the site on the subject of putting an S4 engine into an S5, i believe they also have different rotors(higher compression ratio) and thus different timing curves and fuel adaptives. you will either need to swap in some S5 parts or swap the ECU and possibly the wiring harness to the S5.
edit: duh.... brain fart, that is an S4 engine in a S5, the resistance is different, you will need to swap the S5 injectors into the bad boy.. i would also probably do a search on the site on the subject of putting an S4 engine into an S5, i believe they also have different rotors(higher compression ratio) and thus different timing curves and fuel adaptives. you will either need to swap in some S5 parts or swap the ECU and possibly the wiring harness to the S5.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-19-04 at 11:30 PM.
11-19-04, 11:57 PM
#3
King of the Loop
I have the same swap in my car and when they put in my rebuilt engine my secondaries didnt work either. See the problem was, that part of the harness ahd to eb changed. I think he said i needed high impedance rather than the low impedance thta was there, or something along those lines. Now i dont know if you have the same situation or the guy who converted the s5 for me was an idiot. But you should have that potential cause checked out. Sorry for not being clear.
11-20-04, 12:01 AM
#4
high vs low impedence was what i was referring to, an ohm check will verify. low impedence injectors have less than 1 ohm and high impedence have about 4.5 ohms i believe, or somewhere along those lines, anyways it will interfere with proper injection pulse width.
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11-20-04, 07:44 AM
#8
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Look. The rear hose on the left side of the engine is the fuel return line. Pull the line off. Put a piece of hose on the metal line from the engine and insert it into a bucket/container. Jumper the Fuel Pump Check Connector. Turn the key to ON. Fuel should flow from the engine into the bucket/container. If it does not you have a problem with the routing of the fuel line to/from the fuel rails or a blockage.
If you have flow out from the engine.........it's another thing. We know you have ignition because you said it will fire if fuel is introduced into the chambers. Even the wrong resistance injectors should work for quite some time before whacking the drivers in the ECU.
I'm sticking with it being a fuel problem related to the routing of the fuel lines/PD/FPR.
If you have flow out from the engine.........it's another thing. We know you have ignition because you said it will fire if fuel is introduced into the chambers. Even the wrong resistance injectors should work for quite some time before whacking the drivers in the ECU.
I'm sticking with it being a fuel problem related to the routing of the fuel lines/PD/FPR.
11-20-04, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by HAILERS
Look. The rear hose on the left side of the engine is the fuel return line. Pull the line off. Put a piece of hose on the metal line from the engine and insert it into a bucket/container. Jumper the Fuel Pump Check Connector. Turn the key to ON. Fuel should flow from the engine into the bucket/container. If it does not you have a problem with the routing of the fuel line to/from the fuel rails or a blockage.
If you have flow out from the engine.........it's another thing. We know you have ignition because you said it will fire if fuel is introduced into the chambers. Even the wrong resistance injectors should work for quite some time before whacking the drivers in the ECU.
I'm sticking with it being a fuel problem related to the routing of the fuel lines/PD/FPR.
If you have flow out from the engine.........it's another thing. We know you have ignition because you said it will fire if fuel is introduced into the chambers. Even the wrong resistance injectors should work for quite some time before whacking the drivers in the ECU.
I'm sticking with it being a fuel problem related to the routing of the fuel lines/PD/FPR.
I have fuel flow thru the system i did this check already.
by the way this is a non turbo set up. and to be more clear on the engine.
the engine is from a 90 rx7 and is mounted with all the sensors minus the egr which does not come with the 90 engine setup. i followed the info from "rotary resurrection"
11-20-04, 01:49 PM
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Then go to the ECU. PUll the plugs off and turn the key to ON. See if you have 12v at each injector wire AT the plug.
Sorry. Didn't know you already checked to see/hear the flow. I thought you might just have pressure, but a stoppage in there that would not allow flow to the rail and back to the fuel tank.
If you have 12v at the injector wires, and have spark, I can't help but think the ECU drivers are shot, or????
Sorry. Didn't know you already checked to see/hear the flow. I thought you might just have pressure, but a stoppage in there that would not allow flow to the rail and back to the fuel tank.
If you have 12v at the injector wires, and have spark, I can't help but think the ECU drivers are shot, or????
11-20-04, 05:43 PM
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ok here we go . this afternoon with the orginal hareness and ecu at pin3f=.22vdc, 3e=.714vdc, 3c=.271vdc 3h=10.23vdc. checked all grounds found pin 3a loose. inspected the other grounds on the engine. since the uim was off i swapped the engine hareness for a known good hareness.power readings after the swap 3h=10.8vdc, 3c=.3 vdc, 3e=.78vdc, 3f=.19vdc . then swapped ecu with a known good ecu reading were the same. then swapped mian engine relay no help. ran power directly to the injectors and engine tried to turn over. swapped cas and performed the resistance check per the fsm all three tested the same. swapped out plugs with new plugs. the battery is 2days old and i have a battery charger with engine crank option so lack of power or spark is not in question. fuel is flowing thru the system and out the other end. the engine is starving for fuel. what i need to know is where do the injectors get their signal in shoot. am i missing a relay or something.
thanks '
al
thanks '
al
11-20-04, 05:57 PM
#13
you're not reading my posts, you need to put the injectors from the old motor into the replacement one, be sure you aren't mixing up the ECUs also, they are different between an S4 and S5. you should also really do a search for swapping an S4 engine into an S5, i don't have the time right now but i do know you will have a no start condition and fuel problems with mis-matched injectors in the wrong year vehicle. using the injectors from the other engine will get it running but it could cause long term damage or problems if you do not do the appropriate steps.
edit: for clarity, i saw something about you changing a few parts over on the other thread, are you using the injectors that the original engine you pulled out of it had? i didn't see anything about that on this thread so far and it didn't seem clear to me on that other thread either.
edit: for clarity, i saw something about you changing a few parts over on the other thread, are you using the injectors that the original engine you pulled out of it had? i didn't see anything about that on this thread so far and it didn't seem clear to me on that other thread either.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-20-04 at 06:04 PM.
11-20-04, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Karack
you're not reading my posts, you need to put the injectors from the old motor into the replacement one, be sure you aren't mixing up the ECUs also, they are different between an S4 and S5. you should also really do a search for swapping an S4 engine into an S5, i don't have the time right now but i do know you will have a no start condition and fuel problems with mis-matched injectors in the wrong year vehicle. using the injectors from the other engine will get it running but it could cause long term damage or problems if you do not do the appropriate steps.
all the parts that are being swapped out are exactly the same in every way year model # and son on. both ecu are 326 the hareness are both from an 88 rx7 with low imp injectors .all injector match the hareness. ( a center notch on the injector means it a low impedance injector to my understanding )
the only thing that is from the 90 is the engine block that has been mounted with the 88 front housing so that i can use the mechanical omp.
thanks
al
11-21-04, 03:23 AM
#15
"i did an s5engine swap into an 88 rx7. the 88 was my son's car to which he blew the engine and tranny. i had an extra engine for my 90 rx7 so i used that. i found a post where the engine can be swapped the change of the front housing and all the sensors.
"
i guess that sentence threw me, you are not putting an S5 engine into a S4 chassis? a '90 engine is different than an '88 but i'm kind of unclear on whether i am thinking correctly on this or not.
edit: ok i think i understand, you just used the short block alone and added everything(sensors, wiring, etc) from the original engine to the replacement? if that is the case then do you have spark? if you have no spark and no injector pulse i would suspect a faulty CAS. if you have spark but no injector pulse then you will need to check for power at the injector connectors after bumping the ignition slightly, there should be a pulsing ground at the opposite wire in the connector while cranking. if you have only one or the other then check the wiring and trace it back to it's source. get back to us after you check these.
if you have a CAS signal input at the ECU but no ground signal to the injectors i would suspect a faulty ECU.
"
i guess that sentence threw me, you are not putting an S5 engine into a S4 chassis? a '90 engine is different than an '88 but i'm kind of unclear on whether i am thinking correctly on this or not.
edit: ok i think i understand, you just used the short block alone and added everything(sensors, wiring, etc) from the original engine to the replacement? if that is the case then do you have spark? if you have no spark and no injector pulse i would suspect a faulty CAS. if you have spark but no injector pulse then you will need to check for power at the injector connectors after bumping the ignition slightly, there should be a pulsing ground at the opposite wire in the connector while cranking. if you have only one or the other then check the wiring and trace it back to it's source. get back to us after you check these.
if you have a CAS signal input at the ECU but no ground signal to the injectors i would suspect a faulty ECU.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-21-04 at 03:33 AM.
11-21-04, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Karack
"i did an s5engine swap into an 88 rx7. the 88 was my son's car to which he blew the engine and tranny. i had an extra engine for my 90 rx7 so i used that. i found a post where the engine can be swapped the change of the front housing and all the sensors.
"
i guess that sentence threw me, you are not putting an S5 engine into a S4 chassis? a '90 engine is different than an '88 but i'm kind of unclear on whether i am thinking correctly on this or not.
edit: ok i think i understand, you just used the short block alone and added everything(sensors, wiring, etc) from the original engine to the replacement? if that is the case then do you have spark? if you have no spark and no injector pulse i would suspect a faulty CAS. if you have spark but no injector pulse then you will need to check for power at the injector connectors after bumping the ignition slightly, there should be a pulsing ground at the opposite wire in the connector while cranking. if you have only one or the other then check the wiring and trace it back to it's source. get back to us after you check these.
if you have a CAS signal input at the ECU but no ground signal to the injectors i would suspect a faulty ECU.
"
i guess that sentence threw me, you are not putting an S5 engine into a S4 chassis? a '90 engine is different than an '88 but i'm kind of unclear on whether i am thinking correctly on this or not.
edit: ok i think i understand, you just used the short block alone and added everything(sensors, wiring, etc) from the original engine to the replacement? if that is the case then do you have spark? if you have no spark and no injector pulse i would suspect a faulty CAS. if you have spark but no injector pulse then you will need to check for power at the injector connectors after bumping the ignition slightly, there should be a pulsing ground at the opposite wire in the connector while cranking. if you have only one or the other then check the wiring and trace it back to it's source. get back to us after you check these.
if you have a CAS signal input at the ECU but no ground signal to the injectors i would suspect a faulty ECU.
i swapped the cas and performed the test on it as outlined in the fsm.
both the orginal and the known working cas tested exactly the same.
i swapped engine hareness with a known working hareness since i was checking the ground under the UIM (engine hareness only). i made sure the engine block ground that goes to the transmission bellhouse is on.
if you read my previous post you will see the voltages for the injectors while cranking.
i have swapped ecu's .
yes i have spark i can almost crank the engine when i manually open the injectors.(secondary injector).
thanks
al
11-21-04, 08:45 AM
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In your first post, second paragraph you had spark and I trust you still do so the cas isn't bad.
The 3c,e,f,and h are a puzzle to me too. Same series harness etc. Should be 12v or batt voltage.
You are checking the voltage at the wires at the ECU and not the pins on the ECU....right??? Sorry, had to ask.?????
If the wires in the plugs 3c,e,f,h are not battery voltage, I think I'd go to the solenoid resistor and unplug it. Get the meter out and see if your getting battery voltage from at the solenoid resistor. One wire should have the 12v. The black/yellow wire. Key to ON.
If you have it there with the key to ON.........I think I'd get a long piece of wire and a meter out. Put one piece of the wire in the solenoid resistor at the socket that has the brown/yellow wire. Then run the othe end of that piece of wire to the crew compartment and attach it to one of your meter leads and your other meter lead to pin 3f of the smalL ECU plug. On the meter, with it set on ohms, you should read continuity or approx 10 ohms, give or take a couple.
In other words ohm out the wires from the solenoid resistor plug.......thru the fuel injectors ......to the ECU. One at a time as described above. They should all read approx 10 ohms. If not...something is out of whack b/t the solenoid resistor plug and the ECU.
Sorry, but I gotta ask this question out of curiosity and it might help. No insult etc meant. The question......Do you know how to count the wires in the ECU plugs???? With it connected to the ECU and looking at the side where the wires enter the plug, you count from the right to the left. 3A will be on the top row to the far right (smallest plug). 3B will be directly below it. And you count like this from the right to the left.
If you were counting in another manner, that would explain the STRANGE results you got from pins 3c,e,f,h.
EDIT: Nah, if you were reading them *** backwards 3E and 3F would still read battery voltage. Their in the middle so you could have counted from either end. Sorry 'bout that idea.
The 3c,e,f,and h are a puzzle to me too. Same series harness etc. Should be 12v or batt voltage.
You are checking the voltage at the wires at the ECU and not the pins on the ECU....right??? Sorry, had to ask.?????
If the wires in the plugs 3c,e,f,h are not battery voltage, I think I'd go to the solenoid resistor and unplug it. Get the meter out and see if your getting battery voltage from at the solenoid resistor. One wire should have the 12v. The black/yellow wire. Key to ON.
If you have it there with the key to ON.........I think I'd get a long piece of wire and a meter out. Put one piece of the wire in the solenoid resistor at the socket that has the brown/yellow wire. Then run the othe end of that piece of wire to the crew compartment and attach it to one of your meter leads and your other meter lead to pin 3f of the smalL ECU plug. On the meter, with it set on ohms, you should read continuity or approx 10 ohms, give or take a couple.
In other words ohm out the wires from the solenoid resistor plug.......thru the fuel injectors ......to the ECU. One at a time as described above. They should all read approx 10 ohms. If not...something is out of whack b/t the solenoid resistor plug and the ECU.
Sorry, but I gotta ask this question out of curiosity and it might help. No insult etc meant. The question......Do you know how to count the wires in the ECU plugs???? With it connected to the ECU and looking at the side where the wires enter the plug, you count from the right to the left. 3A will be on the top row to the far right (smallest plug). 3B will be directly below it. And you count like this from the right to the left.
If you were counting in another manner, that would explain the STRANGE results you got from pins 3c,e,f,h.
EDIT: Nah, if you were reading them *** backwards 3E and 3F would still read battery voltage. Their in the middle so you could have counted from either end. Sorry 'bout that idea.
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-21-04 at 08:51 AM.
11-21-04, 08:54 AM
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You probably have a schematic, but here's a jpg. There has to be something wrong b/t the solenoid resistor and the ECU with the injectors being in the middle of the circuit.
I always find it hard to believe a solenoid resistor pack can go bad. It's just four 6ohms resistors with 12v passing thru them. You can take it out and ohm them out. One meter lead on the center and then the other lead to each pin one at a time. EAch should read approx 6ohms.
Odd problem you have there b/t the solenoid resistor and the ECU plug.
I always find it hard to believe a solenoid resistor pack can go bad. It's just four 6ohms resistors with 12v passing thru them. You can take it out and ohm them out. One meter lead on the center and then the other lead to each pin one at a time. EAch should read approx 6ohms.
Odd problem you have there b/t the solenoid resistor and the ECU plug.
Last edited by HAILERS; 11-21-04 at 09:00 AM.
11-21-04, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by HAILERS
In your first post, second paragraph you had spark and I trust you still do so the cas isn't bad.
The 3c,e,f,and h are a puzzle to me too. Same series harness etc. Should be 12v or batt voltage.
You are checking the voltage at the wires at the ECU and not the pins on the ECU....right??? Sorry, had to ask.?????
If the wires in the plugs 3c,e,f,h are not battery voltage, I think I'd go to the solenoid resistor and unplug it. Get the meter out and see if your getting battery voltage from at the solenoid resistor. One wire should have the 12v. The black/yellow wire. Key to ON.
If you have it there with the key to ON.........I think I'd get a long piece of wire and a meter out. Put one piece of the wire in the solenoid resistor at the socket that has the brown/yellow wire. Then run the othe end of that piece of wire to the crew compartment and attach it to one of your meter leads and your other meter lead to pin 3f of the smalL ECU plug. On the meter, with it set on ohms, you should read continuity or approx 10 ohms, give or take a couple.
In other words ohm out the wires from the solenoid resistor plug.......thru the fuel injectors ......to the ECU. One at a time as described above. They should all read approx 10 ohms. If not...something is out of whack b/t the solenoid resistor plug and the ECU.
Sorry, but I gotta ask this question out of curiosity and it might help. No insult etc meant. The question......Do you know how to count the wires in the ECU plugs???? With it connected to the ECU and looking at the side where the wires enter the plug, you count from the right to the left. 3A will be on the top row to the far right (smallest plug). 3B will be directly below it. And you count like this from the right to the left.
If you were counting in another manner, that would explain the STRANGE results you got from pins 3c,e,f,h.
EDIT: Nah, if you were reading them *** backwards 3E and 3F would still read battery voltage. Their in the middle so you could have counted from either end. Sorry 'bout that idea.
The 3c,e,f,and h are a puzzle to me too. Same series harness etc. Should be 12v or batt voltage.
You are checking the voltage at the wires at the ECU and not the pins on the ECU....right??? Sorry, had to ask.?????
If the wires in the plugs 3c,e,f,h are not battery voltage, I think I'd go to the solenoid resistor and unplug it. Get the meter out and see if your getting battery voltage from at the solenoid resistor. One wire should have the 12v. The black/yellow wire. Key to ON.
If you have it there with the key to ON.........I think I'd get a long piece of wire and a meter out. Put one piece of the wire in the solenoid resistor at the socket that has the brown/yellow wire. Then run the othe end of that piece of wire to the crew compartment and attach it to one of your meter leads and your other meter lead to pin 3f of the smalL ECU plug. On the meter, with it set on ohms, you should read continuity or approx 10 ohms, give or take a couple.
In other words ohm out the wires from the solenoid resistor plug.......thru the fuel injectors ......to the ECU. One at a time as described above. They should all read approx 10 ohms. If not...something is out of whack b/t the solenoid resistor plug and the ECU.
Sorry, but I gotta ask this question out of curiosity and it might help. No insult etc meant. The question......Do you know how to count the wires in the ECU plugs???? With it connected to the ECU and looking at the side where the wires enter the plug, you count from the right to the left. 3A will be on the top row to the far right (smallest plug). 3B will be directly below it. And you count like this from the right to the left.
If you were counting in another manner, that would explain the STRANGE results you got from pins 3c,e,f,h.
EDIT: Nah, if you were reading them *** backwards 3E and 3F would still read battery voltage. Their in the middle so you could have counted from either end. Sorry 'bout that idea.
ok here is what i have so far. took the UIM off again to do the test rotaryressurection said to do also took the afm off and cleaned the soleniod resistor now the injectors are spraying.
now for the tech end.
now i have power at pins 3e, 3f, 3h and power at the ground pins 3g,3a,2c
now at pin 3c ( rear primary injector)i have .11vdc
and at ground pin 2r i have 3.48 vdc
physical findings and obsversations
i am flooding the engine all plugs are getting wet some more than others.
fuel is coming out of the tail pipe.
flooding procedures were done minus the atf ( which i believe doesnt work)
engine is trying to turn over but not making it.
i am open to sugesstions i am done for today due to the stress i will continue tomorrow(monday) i could use some ideas
thanks
al
11-27-04, 12:53 PM
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i tried to turn the engine over without the atf everything was dry i had new plugs and wires. i confirmed spark and compression by listening and feeling the burst of air out of the leading plug hole.put it all together and had no luck. took the plugs out again cleaned them and began with the atf, for the 1st time the engine turn over ofcourse there was the cloud of smoke.after the worst of it had past the car would not let me go below 2500 to 3000( inthat range) rpm. finally it shut off on its own. i took the plugs out and cleaned them again and it turned over then shutoff. cleaned plugs and deciced to check tha i was getting fuel to the engine by leaving the plugs out and watching the fuel push out, here is what i noticed.
i no longer had compression noise from the rear rotor. i thought maybe the atf might be holding back a seal or something.
is this normal or did i just lose the rear rotor.
thanks
al
i no longer had compression noise from the rear rotor. i thought maybe the atf might be holding back a seal or something.
is this normal or did i just lose the rear rotor.
thanks
al
11-29-04, 01:06 AM
#22
if you have a compression guage do the bounce test and let us know what readings you get.
the idle problem could be a number of things, be sure your IAT, coolant temp sensor and BAC are all plugged in and be sure you have all the vacuum lines connected and connected to the right ports, maybe screw out your BAC screw a half a turn to 1 full turn and see if that helps also. make sure your UIM is seated properly to the LIM as well.
the idle problem could be a number of things, be sure your IAT, coolant temp sensor and BAC are all plugged in and be sure you have all the vacuum lines connected and connected to the right ports, maybe screw out your BAC screw a half a turn to 1 full turn and see if that helps also. make sure your UIM is seated properly to the LIM as well.
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