SChema

I know Apex Seals go bad after a while when they dry. Approximately how long do I have until I need to have the motor running after I have the seals put in? Let's say, how long do I have from the point of purchase of the seals to start up and drivable until the seals are bad? My build is somewhat a slow progress.

I would like to know that for both OEM and aftermarket.

Thanks

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

Apex seals don't go bad with age, they are made of metal. Coolant and oil seals, once the engine has been used, can go bad if they sit for a while (year+), though. If nothing has been assembled then its good for a very long while.

SChema

I remembered someone said that the Apex Seals could go bad due to age; I guess I just misunderstood that and got the coolant seals and oil seals mixed up with the Apex Seals.

By the way how long to I have for the coolant and oil seals?
Is there anything I can apply to them to prolong the life of them during rebuild? I heard petroleum jelly is a must have during rebuild process.

Thanks

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

Honestly, I have never heard of them having a shelf life. Unless someone else has any other ideas, I would keep them in a cool, dry place and not worry about it.

micah

Well... a parked rotary can get corrosion like mad on the apex seal area.... but... the seal itself isn't "going bad".. but rather just getting corroded into the rotor...

But yeah. Sideways is right.. seals just don't go bad by themselves.. there's always another component like water or what not involved. If you park a rotary for a good long time, its a good idea to put some 2cycle oil on each apex seal... in the chamber... pull the egi fuse and get it worked in there really good before parking.. it'll keep the water away from the seals. Just my 2cents.

--Micah

iceblue

The only concern I would have with letting a built motor fresh sit for a while is and also depending on assembly procedure the oil seals drying out. Meaning the lube you installed them with eventually going away and when you run the motor the orings are dry. When the seals heat up the orings are burned thus causing major internal oil leaking. But thats honestly the only issue I can see.

scathcart

What the hell are you talking about?
When you build an engine, you ALWAYS use a petroleum based assembly lubricant: 10W30, assembly lube, even petroleum jelly works. None of these will ever evaporate. Where exactly is this stuff supposed to go?
The best time to store an engine is as soon as its done being rebuilt. Block off all of the intake and exhaust ports to keep dust and debris out, and you're golden. No carbon to harden, and the assembly lube will prevent any rusting.

If storing a run engine, the ports should be block off as before, but also sprayed with Fogging Oil into each rotor chamber and rotated, to prevent carbon hardening and rusting.

iceblue

Go rub some oil all on your oil oring hang it on your shelf come back in 2 weeks and tell me how well coated it all is. better yet use petroleum jelly that is.

Petroleum would not be the wisest choice soly for the lubricant just so the poster knows. assy lube and oil are. If your oring is not properly coated during fire the controller and rotor can and may develop hot spots as I clearly stated and burn the oring causing leakage. Sadly every "builder should" of known this.

scathcart

Left the cap off on a jar of petroleum jelly for a good 3 years now, used to use it as grinders grease... whadya know: it hasn't evaporated! Its exactly the same consistency as the day I bought it! In fact, I'll tip the jar upside down for you for a couple weeks. Want pictures?

I've got a ton of oil control rings hanging on my shop wall. When they were put there, they were wiped with a sponge soaked with 10W30. Whadya know... they're still oily and rust free after all these years, even in BC's rainy, damp climate. Guess oil doesn't eveaporate either! Who'd a guessed?

Petroleum jelly works fine as assembly lube. Mazda agrees. I'd love to hear why its not... aren't you still packing your oil pumps with it?

Thanks again, as always, for the laugh. What makes it even more funny is that you take your answers seriously.

scathcart

When you fire an engine for the first time, you first crank it to make sure you have oil pressure. As soon as you get oil pressure, oil from the rotor bearings is getting onto the oil control rings.... so no chance of dry-rubbing there.

Even if you assembled them completely dry... at cranking speeds, there simply isn't enough friction to build up any heat. Sorry, again no hot spots. I can set this up as a demo for you if you can't figure it out on your own.

Oil control rings are damaged when:
1. The rotor is overheated from lack of cooling oil being sprayed in.
2. Engine overheated
3. Excessive rotor temperatures from running lean
4. Excessive oil temperature

Cranking... is not one of them.

iceblue

Man I can think of quite a few posts you need to go read. Petroleum is basically water based when it heats up in the jar sunny FL temps it turns into a tub of soupy muck with the consistence of water. Want pictures? Don't play your back woods crap with me this is about as inteligant as your knowledge of engine coatings again. Tried and true facts are allot more valuable. I fail to see how you keep making **** up in your posts, it is baffling. Gravity has a thing about liquids it likes to pull it all down hmm dunno why. So put that ring back on the wall and watch where the fluid runs. Oh and go reread the first post before you start babbling again. And please go build one with no lube please do.

Hmm just another quote you missed

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I don't now why I'm putting myself into this, but here goes...

Petroleum jelly is petroleum based, not water based. True that it can become quite liquid in the heat, but it won't just leave the oil o-rings for the very reason that they are there in the first place: they seal the oil into where it's needed and keep it out of where it isn't.

The o-ring should be lubricated upon installation regardless (Mazda says so...) but the proper lube (Vaseline or assembly lube) is not going to disappear during storage.

There's also the point that ANY engine removed from storage should be sprayed internally with oil before it's started anyway, and cranked to build up some oil pressure first as well.

SChema

Thanks for the help guys.

iceblue

Basically water based Aaron you know better as stated will turn into almost water substance. What can happen is the majority of lube will seap to the lower portion and some could run past the carriage as there is a tolerance gap between them all. rotating the motor helps prevent this an so does proper assembly. What you can potentially end up with is the highest portion of the control area not well lubed and potentially fry when started. Mostly depends on the builder procedures. Vaseline would have a lower potential of proper lubrication over an extended period of time or ambient heat cycles. I would not recommend vasaline only or at the bare minimum only if the motor is going to be ran right away. The point is there is a potential and is factorial that the oring may heat to the control carrier causing leaking.

micah

I had considered using a proper engine assembly lube for this reason (over vaseline). I bought a couple different kinds... i got some of that Ultra Slick permatex stuff... the stuff that looks like virgin blood... I also picked some grey stuff up in a squeeze tube that said it was graphite based. Unsure of how that would work long term.

Regardless, I'm going to play it safe and build immediately prior to installation/startup with permatex ultra slick.

iceblue

micaheli - I love your Ubuntu Advatar ;-) Bes OS out IMO for desktops. The permatex is what I use and RP20w50. The torco assy lube is also good.

micah

Ubuntu FTW! I'm in it right now as a matter of fact. Not sure who makes the graphite based stuff I got.. but it feels nice enough between my fingers... not sure how viscous the graphite will be over the silicone/petroleum based ones.

scathcart

Water based? PETROLEUM jelly? For the love of god man, please stop making it so easy to make fun of you!
PETROLEUM jelly is PETROLEUM based: that means its an oil-based product. Petroleum jelly is a hydrocarbon non-polar molecule. Because of this, it is classified as hydrophobic (this means it repels water). It is impossible mix with water and shows no reaction with air.
In no way, whatsoever, can it ever be classified as water based. It is the exact opposite.


The melting point of petroleum jelly is a little over 100 degrees. Even above those levels of ambient temperatures, it is impossible for all molecules to drip off of an iron/rubber/etc. part. Its simply a property of petroleum. Go coat any part with petroleum jelly and then heat it up to 150 degrees, and let it cool. Leave it at that temp for as long as you want. Then, wipe the part down with a rag. You WILL get petroleum residue on the rag, and the surface will remain lubricated.

So... I guess the hundreds upon hundreds of engine builders who have used petroleum jelly, Mazda (as per their FSM), and Mazda Motorsports (http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...bject=techInfo) are all wrong? Engine lube and oil work fine, but so does PJ.

Did you get that? The part where I proved that you couldn't be more wrong? Do I need to explain it again?

I won't even begin to get into the physics of why control rings can never create enough friction to create hotspots and fry the rings during a dry start.

As well, when you're going to quote someone, at least try to make sure the quote supports your argument. Ted is talking about assemblying the o-rings into their grooves without any lubricant, which would result in the o-ring potentially binding until it recieves engine lubricant. He never stated it would ever over-heat or creat hot spots. Its simply an impossibility. Nice try though. When doubting yourself, try quoting someone who knows what they're talking about. Then again, if you have to quote someone else that knows what they're talking about... should you really be arguing?


THIS is a classic example of the difference between an mechanical engineer and a mechanic. A mechanic knows what happens and nothing more. An engineer knows what happens, and WHY it happens. Years of studying the laws of physics and the properties of metals and materials tend to do that.
"Its runny like water, so it must BE water!" ROFL Take a sip next time!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I don't know what to say, other then please keep the thread friendly. scathcart posted what was basically going to be my reply, so there's no sense duplicating information.

It boils down to the fact that a person can do whatever they want when they build an engine, but don't go telling others that they are wrong when it's an established procedure that has worked flawlessly millions of times over the entire period Mazda has been selling rotary engines...

iceblue

This just must be over your head clearly by the way both of you now state the petroleum thing. And have zero understanding of what was said and basic principles. This is ******* stupid. Either build something better then me and bring it to the table or do some experiments. It is apparent that some people seem to understand what was said and others can not. Either way this is ******* rediculas on both of your parts to "argue" this with me build however you want and let your motors sit all you want I really do not care. Educational information was posted for others and they can collaborate how they think will be the best way. Funny the engine world thous who agree and the crowd who does not I kind of like being on the selected agreed side because they always produce out of the norm products for a reason.

SureShot

A side note:
The piston guys are freaking about the newest API oil formulations dropping zinc.
It seems to be killing camshafts in rebuilt engines. – Not a problem for us!
I use moly assembly lube.
-Bill

kontakt

Seems like the place to ask, esp since I was linked.

When I said I was using PJ, my dad said why not White Lithium Grease. So... anyone want to tell me? Would that be another just fine alternative? I would sort of expect so.

fc3s91

iTrader: (23)

Crisco oil for the seal. That is what mazda used for the oil seal. Ask Rob Golden from pineapple racing.
Thanks Robert

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

Seriously? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_jelly

The only problem I have with petroleum jelly is that it attacks some rubbers and silicones, causing them to swell and crack or de-nature.

When I've built engines I use assembly lube and hylomar only.