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Another lame engine won't start thread. But please help

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Old 03-28-12, 12:22 AM
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Another lame engine won't start thread. But please help

Hi all, thanks for taking the time to read my problem.

I have a 87 Turbo II, I bought this car not knowing much about it.

The car originally had problem starting, it cranks but won't start. Progressively, before the engine stopped starting, the car started at starting just fine and as days gets colder, it needed to have the fuel pump kill switch at off while cranking and on as soon as it starts. I suspect it was the engine flooding that caused it. I also suspect grounding might be contributing to the issue.

I checked fuses, I checked the grounds

For ground point
From battery harness
- 1 ground at starter
- 1 ground near starter bolted on the bellhousing
- 1 ground on the strut wall
- 1 ground on engine from main fuse box

From engine harness
- 1 ground from ECU to engine

From chassis
- 1 ground from firewall to bellhousing.

All grounds are cleaned, all fuses are good. I went as far as replacing the entire engine harness, AFM and ECU along with a running long block from a 88 T2 with 95 psi on both rotor. I didn't change the battery harness tho.

Now the car still won't start, although tt feels like the car is getting close to the point where it catches, but it just won't. I have a fuel pump kill switch to help the problem but it didn't do much.

I checked the tail pipe and I can see smokes coming out of it after I cranked it a few times, and I can smell fuels. I checked AFM connections, it's intact, there are no wire that's not connected except emission stuff on the engine harness. I replaced fuel filter, made sure the lines are right, from filter to lower rail, and lower rail to upper, upper to return. And the FPR goes to the middle nipple on the LIM.

I'm stuck now don't know where to check, please help.

ps. I was talking to another member, and he said he had similar problem, and it end up being the CAS to ECU wire being not having enough lead or something which cause the injector to fire only half as often, and caused the no start. Does anyone know how to fix this issue?

Last edited by DairokutenMaoh; 03-28-12 at 12:48 AM.
Old 03-28-12, 12:32 AM
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When you say the flood that caused it do you mean a actual flood or the engine flooding? because if the engine had issues with flooding and needed a fuel pump kill switch why not just service the injectors instead of replacing the whole keg? also did you try jumpering the fuel pump directly to the battery?
Old 03-28-12, 12:33 AM
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https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/my-magically-stalling-rx7-986350/ I know its for a na but maybe this can help. there wasnt much i didnt cover on by blue car Also you should install the led code reader and set/check the tps. Look for vacuum leaks and on the tid for cracks in the piping. i havent seen your car so i dont know how "stock" it is but my cousin had issues with his t2 back in the day cause his tid had a bunch of cracks in it and had vacuum line issues.

Last edited by Slade Gunar; 03-28-12 at 12:41 AM.
Old 03-28-12, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
When you say the flood that caused it do you mean a actual flood or the engine flooding? because if the engine had issues with flooding and needed a fuel pump kill switch why not just service the injectors instead of replacing the whole keg? also did you try jumpering the fuel pump directly to the battery?
I'm not sure about the difference of actual flood and engine flooding.

Well the engine had bad leaks from dowel pin area, so I thought might as well take the whole engine out and replace it and fix everything. So I replaced the entire engine, injectors, AFM, ECU, and engine harness.
Old 03-28-12, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DairokutenMaoh
I'm not sure about the difference of actual flood and engine flooding..
I was unsure if you meant it was a flood vehicle cause you said maybe the flood had caused it..... So i was unsure if you meant engine was flooding or it was physically sitting in water. My bad on that.
Old 03-28-12, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
I was unsure if you meant it was a flood vehicle cause you said maybe the flood had caused it..... So i was unsure if you meant engine was flooding or it was physically sitting in water. My bad on that.
ah ok, np, the engine itself was flooding. But that shouldn't be the case anymore since the new engine I put in was from a running 88 TII that was pulled less than 2 weeks ago, it was pressure tested too.
Old 03-28-12, 12:51 AM
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Did you test the fuel pressure in the line yet? Also did you check for spark? (i know its basic but you never know) Also if its your first startup of this engine you should put some fogging oil in it so that your not running the rotors dry.
Old 03-28-12, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
Did you test the fuel pressure in the line yet? Also did you check for spark? (i know its basic but you never know) Also if its your first startup of this engine you should put some fogging oil in it so that your not running the rotors dry.
I will have to check for the fuel pressure tomorrow as well as spark. However before I did the swap I checked the spark and it was all sparkly when I crank the engine.

What's a fogging oil? Also I went through the link you sent, your car had very similar symptom as mine. Mine also magically died all of sudden as I was revving the engine in the engine bay while checking how bad the leak was on the dowel pin (oil is almost like spewing out of the dowel pin area), the engine just suddenly starts to drop rpm and eventually died.

Also, is it normal to have your boost gauge pointed at middle when the key is at ON position?

Last edited by DairokutenMaoh; 03-28-12 at 12:57 AM.
Old 03-28-12, 01:03 AM
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Any kind of thicker oil is basically a fogging oil NOT ATF. Anything will work for a first startup just put a little 10w30 non synthetic inside the plug holes and crank with the plugs unhooked like you would for a deflood just so theres some oil in there when it does start that way your not running the rotors dry, i do it even when i dont drive the cars for more than a month.

At this point if you have replaced everything else on the car and your sure its not any of the items you just put on the last last thing to do would be take a long strand of cable and jump the fuel pump at the tank like i did in that thread i posted to make sure the pump is running and check the fuel pressure after the filter it should be between 30-40 psi with the pump running

If your old engine, harness, ecu and all the fixins were that bad and the new ones are in decent shape its possible the pump is shot as well and you just didnt notice because the engine was so degraded.

Work the pedal a little bit when your trying to start it, give it a little air. just open the throttle no more than 1/8 when your cranking to see if you cant get it to catch. if you get it to run with throttle applied next step is to adjust your idle screw at the bac.

Last edited by Slade Gunar; 03-28-12 at 01:06 AM.
Old 03-28-12, 05:51 AM
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As far as the boost gauge i cannot answer that because i do not have a turbo cluster in my car only a mechanical boost gauge (my grey car was/is a 6 port turbo) and when it is started the gauge drops to around -20 which is normal until about 1800 when i start building boost **my turbo is VERY small on the hotside and only run about 6lbs.

i know my supra and my z go to mid gauge when the key is on because its not a mechanical gauge its electric and dont engage until the cluster sees power and they drop down towards the bottom of the gauge when the engine is started because its pulling vacuum (arround -20hg) and not boost.

When i was having all those issues on my blue car i was dead set convinced at one point that it was the cas that went bad on me and i started to just throw parts at it which didnt work and i was fortunate enough to have a 2nd s4 car to test parts on. You had said you got a long block which basically would be just the keg right? So you put your old exhaust/intake manifold back on correct? If it was dropping rpm and gradually died, i would say take a look at the aws system if its still on the car and how your tb is adjusted. It sounds like the engine started starving for air and killed itself which if the plates were out of whack cause someone was monkeying around with it, is entirely possible since you said that it didnt run right since you got it and one thing i learned the hard way is that you never know what the previous owner has done to the car when they had it.

The problem most likely would lie in what you put back on the engine and didnt adjust yet. Are you positive your tps is set correct and that your bac is clean and that your throttle plates are adjusted to how they should be? Also did you check if your ecu was puking any codes? I know on a older vehicle like this most people would dismiss anything like that but you would be suprized what the computer can tell you.

If you removed/unhooked the emissions gear there really is no point in have the fast idle thermo valve warm up accelerated whatever said manufacturer calls its cold start high rev unit, because its just epa bullshit there to warm up the cats faster.

After i drained the old gas and took all the extra junk off my throttle body the car started right up i had to pedal it inside the car and it died a few times cause i had to get out and make corrections on the the idle scew and the throttle plate set screw. On my tb mod i did it a little different than how they do on the fc3s site and i adjusted the throttle plates to get my idle correct which it isnt advised to do it that way but it got my car running after some trial and error.

Also if its a fresh engine it generally takes awhile of cranking to get it started up the first time no longer than 10 seconds at a shot though.

After all this if you can undoubtedly confirm you have air fuel and spark the next step would be to get out the multimeter and start testing like i did. It really REALLY sucks but if you gotta do it you gotta do it.
Old 03-28-12, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
As far as the boost gauge i cannot answer that because i do not have a turbo cluster in my car only a mechanical boost gauge (my grey car was/is a 6 port turbo) and when it is started the gauge drops to around -20 which is normal until about 1800 when i start building boost **my turbo is VERY small on the hotside and only run about 6lbs.

i know my supra and my z go to mid gauge when the key is on because its not a mechanical gauge its electric and dont engage until the cluster sees power and they drop down towards the bottom of the gauge when the engine is started because its pulling vacuum (arround -20hg) and not boost.

When i was having all those issues on my blue car i was dead set convinced at one point that it was the cas that went bad on me and i started to just throw parts at it which didnt work and i was fortunate enough to have a 2nd s4 car to test parts on. You had said you got a long block which basically would be just the keg right? So you put your old exhaust/intake manifold back on correct? If it was dropping rpm and gradually died, i would say take a look at the aws system if its still on the car and how your tb is adjusted. It sounds like the engine started starving for air and killed itself which if the plates were out of whack cause someone was monkeying around with it, is entirely possible since you said that it didnt run right since you got it and one thing i learned the hard way is that you never know what the previous owner has done to the car when they had it.

The problem most likely would lie in what you put back on the engine and didnt adjust yet. Are you positive your tps is set correct and that your bac is clean and that your throttle plates are adjusted to how they should be? Also did you check if your ecu was puking any codes? I know on a older vehicle like this most people would dismiss anything like that but you would be suprized what the computer can tell you.

If you removed/unhooked the emissions gear there really is no point in have the fast idle thermo valve warm up accelerated whatever said manufacturer calls its cold start high rev unit, because its just epa bullshit there to warm up the cats faster.

After i drained the old gas and took all the extra junk off my throttle body the car started right up i had to pedal it inside the car and it died a few times cause i had to get out and make corrections on the the idle scew and the throttle plate set screw. On my tb mod i did it a little different than how they do on the fc3s site and i adjusted the throttle plates to get my idle correct which it isnt advised to do it that way but it got my car running after some trial and error.

Also if its a fresh engine it generally takes awhile of cranking to get it started up the first time no longer than 10 seconds at a shot though.

After all this if you can undoubtedly confirm you have air fuel and spark the next step would be to get out the multimeter and start testing like i did. It really REALLY sucks but if you gotta do it you gotta do it.

I got the long block along with the TB, UIM, LIM, AFM, fuel rails, basically a entire t2 swap. They all came from the running 88 TII, I took out the spiders web before I installed it and rerouted the vacumm with all new hoses. There is no AWS since I took it off. I do have the thing that's located on the right side of UIM, it has coolant lines connected to it but I can't remember what it was for. I will get a picture up for my setup later.

How do I know if my TPS is set correctly? I did took out the OMP and in the process I did have to take out one of the metal pieces on the TB that pushes against the TPS, but I put it back.
Old 03-28-12, 11:35 AM
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mixed like 5cc of 2 cycle oil with the fuel in the gas tank and got the engine to start multiple times but dies at 2000 rpm

here are some video of the starts (notice all tries dies at 2000 rpm)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0KgaDXrphqc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eiO_bwSMZW8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/46d5jD-EWHY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some of the tries had some loud grinding noise coming from the engine bay area similar to the one in the first video.

Last edited by DairokutenMaoh; 03-28-12 at 11:40 AM.
Old 03-28-12, 03:01 PM
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UPDATES :

I switched the fuel pump kill switch to off when cranking and once it starts to catch I switch the kill switch to on, and once it gets to 1000 I have to switch off and pump the gas and get it above 2000, once it passes 2000 I switch the fuel pump back on again and keep holding gas. So pretty much I manually controlled the fuel pump's operation during start.

I was able to maintain idle that way, however as soon as I let go the gas the engine would die.
Old 03-28-12, 05:00 PM
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did you do the fuel pump relay mod on this car by chance? also in the link i sent to my thread the picture of the dash with the safc is actually a video i belive its post 6. click on it and watch. my battery was dying and it was a cold day so you can really hear my starter laboring. Are you positive that you followed all the proper steps listed when you removed the aws and did the tb mod? did you give a try to just wiring the pump right to the battery with a wire outside of the car. it doesnt have to be pretty it just has to work ya know.
Old 03-28-12, 05:01 PM
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Try adjusting the throttle plates to let more air into the engine because that is what your doing with your foot working the pedal and is the tps at 1k on your multimeter wit the throttle fully closed?
Old 03-28-12, 05:35 PM
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I wanted to clarify the wire outside of the car I hope it didnt confuse you or anything. What i meant is use a long strand of wire but dont route it through the body and under the carpet and all that stuff like it was a permanent install. Basically use it as a temporary wire just to run the pump right off the battery, so it could be outside of the car like over the roof through the hatch or however else you wish to run it just for testing purposes. if you have done the fuel pump relay mod unhook the pump from the relay and have your girl, a buddy, your dad or whomever hold a jumper wire to the fuel pumps power. You could also just wire the pump strait to a fused link before the kill switch and the battery but fuel economy may suffer. I have a starter kill and a fuel pump kill in my glovebox. I did it for security reasons though instead of a blaring alarm and shock sensors just 2 killswitches and a blinky light.

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Old 03-28-12, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
I wanted to clarify the wire outside of the car I hope it didnt confuse you or anything. What i meant is use a long strand of wire but dont route it through the body and under the carpet and all that stuff like it was a permanent install. Basically use it as a temporary wire just to run the pump right off the battery, so it could be outside of the car like over the roof through the hatch or however else you wish to run it just for testing purposes. if you have done the fuel pump relay mod unhook the pump from the relay and have your girl, a buddy, your dad or whomever hold a jumper wire to the fuel pumps power. You could also just wire the pump strait to a fused link before the kill switch and the battery but fuel economy may suffer. I have a starter kill and a fuel pump kill in my glovebox. I did it for security reasons though instead of a blaring alarm and shock sensors just 2 killswitches and a blinky light.
I just adjusted the idle screw, and the engine now holds steady at 1.5k with not too much rattle, and rattles heavily around 900, however the hard start problem still exists, I still have to go WOT while play around with fuel pump switches to get it to start. Of course I think the problem is still there, I still need to fix it to get it to run right. Something to do with engine floods when rpm is low.

I didn't do the throttle body mod. All I did was removing the OMP bracket that was holding one of the throttle springs. Then I put it back. All other stuff remain intact.

I didn't do the fuel pump mod either, it came with the car. From what it seems, it is simply adding a switch in between the relay and the fuel pump wire right under the steering column.

From what it seems like, it seems like I have to turn the fuel pump off to get it to catch, and once it catch I will have to switch it back on. Which I suspect that the fuel pump somehow keeps flooding the engine with too much fuel. Gonna have to try rewire and see what's going on. Also gotta do the entire tune up like the one fc3spro.com did.

Last edited by DairokutenMaoh; 03-28-12 at 06:27 PM.
Old 03-28-12, 07:37 PM
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Wellllll you should of mentioned that in the first place... im talking about the dale clark fuel pump rewire not just a kill switch between the relay. You said you removed the aws system yet never blocked it off or removed the 2nd set of auxilary throttle plates? What your saying doesnt really make any sense. but anyway at least its running now. Good luck
Old 03-28-12, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
Wellllll you should of mentioned that in the first place... im talking about the dale clark fuel pump rewire not just a kill switch between the relay. You said you removed the aws system yet never blocked it off or removed the 2nd set of auxilary throttle plates? What your saying doesnt really make any sense. but anyway at least its running now. Good luck
Sorry I'm kind of confused myself too. Thanks a lot for all your input.
Old 03-29-12, 07:03 PM
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http://www.1300cc.com/howto/how2/rewire.htm

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/HOWTO/TBM/tbm.html

hopefully these can help you out.

Also just to let you know, half way through 88 mazda changed to high impediance injectors so just in case you decide to throw the original computer from 87 in for some reason, you should put the old injectors in as well because your new setup MAY be high impediance. I dont know the exact date of the computer or production date of the vehicle you pulled everything out of so i dont know which setup you have right now... In which case if you try to run/drive the car with the wrong kind of injectors bad things will happen.....

Last edited by Slade Gunar; 03-29-12 at 07:10 PM.
Old 03-29-12, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Slade Gunar
http://www.1300cc.com/howto/how2/rewire.htm

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/HOWTO/TBM/tbm.html

hopefully these can help you out.

Also just to let you know, half way through 88 mazda changed to high impediance injectors so just in case you decide to throw the original computer from 87 in for some reason, you should put the old injectors in as well because your new setup MAY be high impediance. I dont know the exact date of the computer or production date of the vehicle you pulled everything out of so i dont know which setup you have right now... In which case if you try to run/drive the car with the wrong kind of injectors bad things will happen.....
Thanks, yes the car is running on high impedance injectors. They came with the engine. Everything is from late model 88 TII, ECU, engine harness, tb, tps. I was looking at the wire that came with it and couldn't find the wire that goes to the resistor pack and I was like wtflol.

Well here is the update, the engine wouldn't start again, no matter how I play with the fuel pump switch. But yeah, I don't have a fuel pressure tester, so I can only start with checking the voltage, and jump the pump and see what's going on. Probably gonna rewire it either way. Also looked up on re-calibrating tps, that's also in the to do list.
Old 03-29-12, 11:24 PM
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First of all its running on One rotor. I have one hell of an ear. its not running on both. I can tell that. Also its acting like mine did when my intake hose was not on right

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Old 03-30-12, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rx7_FREAKKK
First of all its running on One rotor. I have one hell of an ear. its not running on both. I can tell that. Also its acting like mine did when my intake hose was not on right
you mean one of the rotor is not firing!? damn, gotta check that tomorrow. I never thought of that, a rattle heavy motor could very likely be misfiring or one chamber not firing. I tightened the intake hose, and made sure nothing was loose and leaks, tho.

I wired the fuel pump to battery and the pump kicks in hard, I have no pressure tester so I had no way of knowing how much pressure it gives, but the pump jerks hard when I had it off and jump it with battery.

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Old 03-31-12, 01:45 PM
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updates :

rewired the fuel pump and relocated resistor to the rear. I found one of the injector clip was broken and loose, so I replaced the injector.

Now the car starts right away when cold. But has problem start when it's hot. The car also always had this exhaust leaking sound no matter what I did, or how much I tighten all the exhaust joints. I figure the sound had nothing to do with exhaust but something else. I will upload videos later.

The car is getting fuel, the car is also getting spark, but it runs rough when hot. And it has a pss... psss. sound and I can hear it most clearly when I'm close to the passenger door.
Old 03-31-12, 02:43 PM
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RZ2tuylLw0k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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