demahfahbun106

ok guys its me once again and with the same problem....but heres what i have noticed....ok like i said before the car is an 87 turbo II with jspec motor, new clutch and the car was driven for 4.3 miles...thats exactly whats on my gauge right now..ok so the night i finally brought my car home after having it by my girlfriends house putting the car together, i'm driving all fine car going into every gear..ok...then out of no where i tried going into 3rd gear and all i heard was a grind....clutch pedal on the floor...OUCH..well long story short..i changed the master cylinder and same things happening NOT GOING INTO GEARS and the pedal wont come up..have bled it over 100 times... i see the piston moving on the slave so i really dont know what it could be..now heres the thing when the car is off the pedal raises off the ground..(goes down and comes right back up, no prob) BUT when car is on its just dropping...now earlier tonight i tried just kind of holding it into 1st gear like forcing it while the car was on and the car started rolling forward (without clutch, just forcing it towards the gears). I even started the car in first gear and it was rolling all ove rthe place (just to see if it would move) now i honestly dont know what this can be and i am honestly very scared as to how much this is going to cost me..please help me figure this out..i hope my explaination helped..thanx

RETed

Pilot bearing is toast.


-Ted

demahfahbun106

ok thanks reted so all i do is drop the gear box and change it??? how could the pilot bearing just mess up like this???only 4miles of driving........

rodney87

The car will drive normally even if there is no pilot bearing (I should know, I just spent the last two days fixing what was left of mine). Its probly the throw out bearing.

t-too

While we're here, can someone explain to me what/where exactly the pilot bearing is?

rodney87

The pilot bearing is what the shaft in the tranny sits in. It lets the shaft spin and keeps it from moving around. Its located inside the E-shaft, about 1/2-1 in in. If you look at the big bolt holding on the flywheel its in the hole in the center.

RETed

Oh, trust me, it's possible.
When doing any kind of work that requires you to remove the trans from the engine, you're taking a chance of damaging the (brand new) pilot bearing.
If you man-handle the trans onto the engine, there's a good chance the pilot bearing gets damaged.
It happened to me.
Now, with all trans jobs, I try to be very delicate when putting the trans back in.

Mazda designed the pilot bearing to be very compact, and this makes it very delicate.
Trying to shove the input shaft of the trans into the back end of the eccentric shaft with just the wrong angle just once will nick the pilot bearing.
The rest is history as the pilot bearing will eventually eat itself into pieces.

Try this test...
With the engine off, can you shift gears pretty easily?
If you can do this, it's a sure sign it's the pilot bearing.

This is why I always change out the pilot bearing (and seal) whenever the trans comes off (i.e. clutch job, etc.).


-Ted

demahfahbun106

so i'll just drop the gear box the next nice day and let you guys know what happenes..thanks reted

twistedriver

Make sure the pilot bearing is seated deep enough and that there is enough grease in the bearing. I fryed my bearing on christmas eve. Also watch out for the seal when installing the trans. I broke two putting the trans back in the car. Good luck!!

demahfahbun106

wow thanks again for the info...i'm going to order the pilto bearing from mazdatrix and i'll also order 2 seals....lol...lata..i'll let yoou guys know what happenes..i should be doing everything to the car on monday..thanks again

demahfahbun106

Ok heres the deal.....i know i said i'll drop the gear box and hopefully fix the problem monday no later than wednesday...well earlier tonight i was a little anxious to see what would happen if i kept holding the shifter towards the gears.....WELL it turns out the car drive...WHY..i was hoping you guys would know...well i braced it towards 1st gear and it started rolling...now after i felt the cars speed pick up a liitle i pushed it right into gear and drove the car(with the clutch pedal still on the floor, even went into 2nd gear) i honestly would like to know whats really going on with this car...is it the pilot bearing or isnt it...maybe clutch fork?maybe pivot ball???i dont know just asking..these things are what i heard from others...o and after i came to a stop i tried doing it again and all i heard was like a grinding BUT it was more like a whistle...seriously....what you think is going on??? i wont be driving the car n e more until its fixed..like i said i was just a lilttle anxious as to where the car would go.....

P.S> i know you guys have told me its the pilot bearing BUT i just thought i'd let you know what happened earlier and maybe that would change the thought of the problem...

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

The behavior your describe is normal, even though the clutch is not disengaging. This is a sycnronized tranny, and they tend to act that way...pushing the shifter towards first with the clutch out, the car will tend to slowly pull a little, and eventually you can get it to fall into gear that way. You can also rpm match to shift without a clutch, but this is quite hard on your tranny. Neither of these tendencies has anything to do with the clutch...other than the fact that it isn't working.

Things that can make a clutch refuse to disengage:

-hydraulic problem...master cylinder, slave cylinder, needs bleeding, or pedal out of adjustment
-bent fork, or broken pivot ball
-bad pressureplate...bent fingers
-bad disc...friction material broken off in chunks, some of which collected all to one side and wedged in place
-disc siezed on spline shaft...splines burred up or dirty. Disc should move freely on splines, and they should be cleaned and lightly lubed during install
-pilot bearing siezed to input shaft...basically locking the trans input shaft and engine eshaft together, making the clutch useless.
-with use of aftermarket flywheel, sometimes there are fitment issues with spacers or machining on the flywheel in relation to the pressureplate.


Other than the hydraulics, whch you've tested already, all the other issues require the trans to be dropped, so you know what you have to do.

demahfahbun106

well thansk for the input...i guess its really the pilot bearing..anyone else?? i'm going to drop the gear box on monday or tuesday..its gonna be done by wednesday the latest..but please anymore info...thanks again

RETed

Bottom line, you need to drop the trans.
I don't think you can get away with anything short of that.
Once the trans is dropped, it'll be obvious what the problem is...


-Ted

rodney87

I agree, the trans has to come out before you can find out what wrong, but the car will shift and drive normally with a broken pilot bearing. When I swaped my clutch and flywheel my pilot bearing simply wasnt there. Well, it was, but in peices in the bell housing...

demahfahbun106

ok but quick question...what exactly does the pilot bearing do??? why would it not allow the clutch pedal to rise??

Rotary_Knight

iTrader: (4)

The pilot bearing adds support for the input shaft from the tranny. If you aligned something wrong when putting your new motor and tranny in that probly destroyed the pilot bearing. I know!!! I did the same thing.

A tip before you drop the tranny make sure you can shift through gears when trying to drive. Before on my car the input shaft of the tranny was seized in the E-shaft. The pilot bearing got destroyed and the shaft was wedge in there for good and I could not get it off.

So, what I did was put the tranny bolts back on (since I couldnt break it free from the engine) and put everything else back together so I could start the car. Then I tried starting the car. Now, what I did was put the car in reverse ( I was in the garage and needed to back out) then try to start it. The car will move cause the input shaft is stuck in the E-shaft and therefore trying to move the driveshaft. Just keep cranking the starter and give it a little gas until it breaks the input shaft free from the E-shaft. Once you do that go up and down your street just banging it in all gears to make sure the shaft is free.

Then park in the garage and take it apart again.

Rotary_Knight

iTrader: (4)

Another tip dont be afraid about your starter...jus crank that B#*$% to break it lose. Luckily my starter was still good afterwards and when it came time to drop the tranny it came right out along with lil pieces of the pilot bearing.

demahfahbun106

hey thanks for the input but what you suggested i think i did last night( by accident) after i came to a stop the was in neutral(well thats what i thought) it started and moved as if it was in first gear but it wasnt...well long story short is it broke free cause i heard a noise like a clunk den the car stopped moving...but i tried going into gears again without the clutch and it was working fine..so i'm guessing i did what you suggested by accident lol.. anything else i should know?

Rotary_Knight

iTrader: (4)

Hey that's good to hear...yea from what you described it's basically the same thing but the car was running. Yea just makes sure you can shift through gears with the car ON. That's pretty much it. I assume you know how to take the tranny off and all. The only advice I can give is when putting the tranny on have a buddy tilt the engine foward and that'll help level the engine/tranny. If you do that the tranny should slide right in without any extra force. Goodluck to ya!

PM me if you need help when taking it apart. I've done this multiple times now and got it down pretty good. Plus I am recovering from some surgery and force to stay at home AND NOT DRIVE!!!!!!

demahfahbun106

hey guys it didnt happen today as planned...but deff. 2mmrw EARLY..iight when you say get a friend to tilt the motor foward....what you mean??take the mounts off and let him push it from the front of the car towards to firewall or from the firewall to the front bumper? i'm actually doing this with the tools need and in the street..righ tinfront my house...no garage....oh and i really dont know what the hell i'm doing lol any easy ways to do this?? i know by me asking for a step by step would be too much but its worth the try....

demahfahbun106

ok guys i know i said no later than wednesday but a whole lot of things came up..a bunch of bs if you ask me...but well heres the deal..earlier tonight while the car was off i tried goint through the gears and the car wasnt going into 1st or 2nd....the rest were good, even the reverse gear...you guys think something effff'd up in side....I am seriously goin to drop that damn gear box tommrw...so please let me know what might be going on..thanks again

demahfahbun106

anyone...please i'm going to do this in a few...maybe 2 hours or so..anyone know what might be happening after what i described??? thanks again

demahfahbun106

hey whats up me again..I had to go dig up this thread and i know its been a while but i need help... i dropped the gear box a few days ago and i took the clutch off and the disk was kinda in pieces..well the lil grooves and what not that comes on the disk were in pieces i got small and big pieces but the disk is still a whole...you think that would have caused my clutch to not engage? pedal not come back up?? also i put my finger inside(between) the lil hole and felt sumtin moving around but only turnin around in a circle i'm sure thats the pilot bearing but if its there then wat the hell happened? iight so i would just have to get a new clutch disk? also how the hell do i get that pilot bearing out? if its there its there then how would it be bad? how would you know? i really need help i actually started a new thread earlier but it made no sense to do that cause it doesnt have the explaination as to why i dropped the gearbox in the first place...

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I need to see some detailed, high res pictures of the stuff and I can tell you exactly what to do. Your disc sounds suspect, and is likely the reason you had a problem.

The pilot bearing is in the end of the eshaft, and has a bunch of small needles retained by a rotating housing that is between each needle. As long as all the needles are there (it would be obvious) and the assembly turns easily (if you stick your finger in there) then the pilot bearing is good.

A screwed up disc can cause you not to be able to disengage the clutch.