FOR ALL YOU N/Aers - How to get power out of my N/A
edit: dont feel like arguing, when you come across a real n/a on a real track, then you can say how funny it is.
as for the site, check banzai's profile, the link to his website is where you can see the headers. www.rotaryinnovation.com if im not mistaken. i dont think there is a problem in longevity, RB just uses thicker heavier metal, SDJ's were being sold by mazdaspeed directly for some time, so i would assume if it was good enough for mazdaspeed its a very durable header, they look very well done.
as for the site, check banzai's profile, the link to his website is where you can see the headers. www.rotaryinnovation.com if im not mistaken. i dont think there is a problem in longevity, RB just uses thicker heavier metal, SDJ's were being sold by mazdaspeed directly for some time, so i would assume if it was good enough for mazdaspeed its a very durable header, they look very well done.
Last edited by Agent_D; Jul 8, 2007 at 07:36 PM.
if you want power get a TII
lets clear it up, if you want to drag race get a TII, power is much cheaper and easier to get. if you want a challenge and want to put some time into tuning and getting the right things, and plan to drive on tracks, an n/a is a good way to go, but its a matter of personal preference, people think you need power to be fast, which is only true of drag racing and tracks that have more straights than corners.
take what you want the car for and get the one thats right for you, if you want to drag race, i'd say stop wasting your time with an n/a and get a TII.
take what you want the car for and get the one thats right for you, if you want to drag race, i'd say stop wasting your time with an n/a and get a TII.
+1, building an NA RX7 to be fast in a straight line is a lost cause...you bought the wrong car for drag racing. If you want a motor you can peg to 6-9k all day go with a built NA, if you want better acceleration get a TII.
Am I missing something here? The handling specs are almost identical for both an N/A and a TII. You may even get better handling characteristics from a TII with it's beefier drivetrain (for when you exit a corner and get a nice acceleration). TII's come stock with the four piston front calipers as does the GXL, which begs the question if you want a nice track car why not get a TII and upgrade the suspension like you would for an N/A? Or am I off base?
Am I missing something here? The handling specs are almost identical for both an N/A and a TII. You may even get better handling characteristics from a TII with it's beefier drivetrain (for when you exit a corner and get a nice acceleration). TII's come stock with the four piston front calipers as does the GXL, which begs the question if you want a nice track car why not get a TII and upgrade the suspension like you would for an N/A? Or am I off base?
BC
the n/a transmissions are crap, i've never had any luck with them, im using a TII tranny in my car right now. thats just the thing, you drive n/a's and turbo's differently, the turbo has its strength on the exit of a corner where as the n/a has the advantage at the entrance and through the corner with being able to manipulate the throttle differently. its really about driving style more than anything. its just stupid how people say an n/a can't be competitive with a TII.
Rebuild it and have someone port it with the biggest port possible without going to a bridge or killing oil seals. Get turbo housing exhaust sleeves (get them for cheap off a guy with a blown engine) and get the exhaust ported as well.
Get S5 manifolds and rotors and wire open/remove vdi and remove the 5&6 port sleeves.
Get cold air intake, a good header, and an exhaust that has the same pipe diameter as the exit on your manifold, with a muffler ( and presilencer or cat) that suits your ear.
Get a haltech or megasquirt or some other standalone ems.
You will more than likely end up with close to 200HP to the wheels this way (maybe more who knows), if not you or whoever can't tune worth **** more than likely.
To make the car seem faster though, you'll also want a nice aluminum flywheel, lightweight wheels, good suspension and tires, good brake setup(new brand name rotors and good pads with good fluid.) you can fit 225s on the front and rear with a +25 to +35 offset if you arent stretching the tires like a retard. You'll also opt to remove PS and AC because that will help as well, and dont forget other supporting mods like making sure you have a good fuel pump and a good radiator and ducting etc. Have the injectors cleaned while the engine is out.
All things to consider while doing this.
Get S5 manifolds and rotors and wire open/remove vdi and remove the 5&6 port sleeves.
Get cold air intake, a good header, and an exhaust that has the same pipe diameter as the exit on your manifold, with a muffler ( and presilencer or cat) that suits your ear.
Get a haltech or megasquirt or some other standalone ems.
You will more than likely end up with close to 200HP to the wheels this way (maybe more who knows), if not you or whoever can't tune worth **** more than likely.
To make the car seem faster though, you'll also want a nice aluminum flywheel, lightweight wheels, good suspension and tires, good brake setup(new brand name rotors and good pads with good fluid.) you can fit 225s on the front and rear with a +25 to +35 offset if you arent stretching the tires like a retard. You'll also opt to remove PS and AC because that will help as well, and dont forget other supporting mods like making sure you have a good fuel pump and a good radiator and ducting etc. Have the injectors cleaned while the engine is out.
All things to consider while doing this.
first of all, removing the VDI on an S5 intake hurts power everywhere, either have it working, or wire it open. removing the 5/6 ports i do agree with, i've had working ports, wired ports, pineapple insert ports and fully removed, and ive never noticed much of a difference at all with any of those setups.
biggest port possible huh, well i'd disagree with that and say get a well designed port. talk to kahren on this forum about it, i dont know whether he is still doing them or not however.
if you're going standalone there is no point in keeping stock intake manifolds, you'll want to go with an IDA/ITB setup if you go stand alone.
biggest port possible huh, well i'd disagree with that and say get a well designed port. talk to kahren on this forum about it, i dont know whether he is still doing them or not however.
if you're going standalone there is no point in keeping stock intake manifolds, you'll want to go with an IDA/ITB setup if you go stand alone.
[QUOTE=Agent_D;7115898]edit: dont feel like arguing, when you come across a real n/a on a real track, then you can say how funny it is.QUOTE]
it is as funny as someone who thinks an exhaust would add 70hp on a NA rx-7
yup... just plain retarded.
i find that the dumbest thing i have ever read. have you ever worked on an engine, or seen a dyno sheet? at all? anywhere?
it isnt going to add 28% to 146hp. your NA rx-7 does not make 146hp across the whole rpm band. it makes like 20hp @ 2500rpm, and that 28% peak increase is probably at that rpm, which boost that power to 25.6hp... not a 70hp gain at peak power. mazdatrix never claimed that 28% at peak... you just put it together because you are an idiot.
oh wait... i forgot, it must be your special 86 base na that has that 70hp gain at the peak that beats t2s...
and ya, have been across a few na rx7s....
it is as funny as someone who thinks an exhaust would add 70hp on a NA rx-7
yup... just plain retarded.
Originally Posted by Agent_D
a full n/a exhaust is worth more like 45-70hp depending on the way its tuned. if you use the 28% number that mazdatrix claims for the true dual (or at least used to claim, havent checked the site in a long time) thats 204.8 flywheel hp if its used on an S5, and 186.88hp flywheel on S4's, 44.8 and 40.88hp increase respectively. now being the RB true dual isnt ideal for max power, this number can have 15hp added to it just from the SDJ header, and then another 7-15 from better components for the rest of the exhaust, so you can expect anywhere from 40-70hp on an n/a exhaust depending on how well its setup. the 15hp over RB is at the flywheel (which is like 11-13 at the wheels).
it isnt going to add 28% to 146hp. your NA rx-7 does not make 146hp across the whole rpm band. it makes like 20hp @ 2500rpm, and that 28% peak increase is probably at that rpm, which boost that power to 25.6hp... not a 70hp gain at peak power. mazdatrix never claimed that 28% at peak... you just put it together because you are an idiot.
oh wait... i forgot, it must be your special 86 base na that has that 70hp gain at the peak that beats t2s...
and ya, have been across a few na rx7s....
Well, from what i understand, vdi opens up a restriction in the intake, right, well, removing VDI, in terms of what I mean, would to be make it be open all the time, without the valve or sleeve or whatever it is on there. I've never really looked at a S5 manifold.
There are definite limits to what can be done with an na. The real question is how much noise can you (and your neighbors) stand? Everything I have done on my car to make it faster has made it louder. (It was interesting to note that cleaning up the intake made the exhaust louder.)
At this point, with a stock block, ECU, MAF (Very restrictive!) functional smog equipment (2-3ppm HCs), aluminum flywheel and a full interior I have seen terminal speeds between 95-100MPH on a 1/4 mi. Noise levels are just under the legal limit and the car pulls very nicely from 4-7K. It won't rip the tires from the pavement like a modded TII, but it has plenty of power for "stoplight sprints", autocross and hillclimb. (Won my class on street tires last year, had never done a hillclimb before.) The car is very easy to throttle-steer.
Yawpower made 210RWHP with a "mildly" ported na/TII hybrid as detailed on their website here
http://www.yawpower.com/sep2004.html)
If you read the story, note that they used a very mild street port on the intake, and a full-race port on the exhaust. I think that might get a little loud. Anything faster (Bridgeport, P Port) is going to be louder, and less reliable.
If you want to run 12 sec 1/4 miles, get a TII. If you want to keep it simple and fun, get an na and don't expect it to be something it's not.
Just my $0.02.
At this point, with a stock block, ECU, MAF (Very restrictive!) functional smog equipment (2-3ppm HCs), aluminum flywheel and a full interior I have seen terminal speeds between 95-100MPH on a 1/4 mi. Noise levels are just under the legal limit and the car pulls very nicely from 4-7K. It won't rip the tires from the pavement like a modded TII, but it has plenty of power for "stoplight sprints", autocross and hillclimb. (Won my class on street tires last year, had never done a hillclimb before.) The car is very easy to throttle-steer.
Yawpower made 210RWHP with a "mildly" ported na/TII hybrid as detailed on their website here
http://www.yawpower.com/sep2004.html)If you read the story, note that they used a very mild street port on the intake, and a full-race port on the exhaust. I think that might get a little loud. Anything faster (Bridgeport, P Port) is going to be louder, and less reliable.
If you want to run 12 sec 1/4 miles, get a TII. If you want to keep it simple and fun, get an na and don't expect it to be something it's not.
Just my $0.02.
wtf's a piston
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,717
Likes: 0
From: Englewood, FL
[QUOTE=slpin;7116555]
like i said to the OP if you want real info on n/a modding pm or AIM me, i've had nothing but n/a's with several different exhaust setups and real world comparisons instead of dyno sheets. all that matters to people on this forum are dyno sheets and they call BS on anything else.
and on that note, i'll post dyno sheets of my stock ported motor in a few weeks when i get there (maybe this weekend)
edit: on a side note, i see you are in CA slpin, you ever get to buttonwillow? or any tracks close to you? if so let me know about some events happening in november or december and i'll come out and drive with you and show you what a properly modded n/a can do. just some fun, i intend on going out there anyways to run on buttonwillow and GMR and a few other places. and excuse me if i seem a bit pissed off or rude, i've been messing with stock ported n/a's for 7 or 8 years now and have personally seen some freak *** n/a's that make power that they shouldn't, my first one was stock ported and was running 14.1-14.3 at the strip with full exhaust as only mod, i had a time slip of it until i wrecked the car and it was crushed with it (i was asleep for two weeks on medication). some n/a's make power, some dont. my vert i was running a few months ago only had the RB true dual and an underdrive pulley as the only real power mods and it was pulling almost even with my buddies stock S2K (240hp).
oh and my current car, i raced an 04 STi with ECU as only mod and he said he was putting down 320-330hp, he pulled me by ~4-5 cars, and ran a S13 with an SR20DET, 3" exhaust and BOV and he pulled me by only about 1-1.5 cars, he ran that STi as well and lost by 3-4 cars. so guessing the power of the S13 i would say ~250-270.
edit: dont feel like arguing, when you come across a real n/a on a real track, then you can say how funny it is.QUOTE]
it is as funny as someone who thinks an exhaust would add 70hp on a NA rx-7
yup... just plain retarded.
i find that the dumbest thing i have ever read. have you ever worked on an engine, or seen a dyno sheet? at all? anywhere?
it isnt going to add 28% to 146hp. your NA rx-7 does not make 146hp across the whole rpm band. it makes like 20hp @ 2500rpm, and that 28% peak increase is probably at that rpm, which boost that power to 25.6hp... not a 70hp gain at peak power. mazdatrix never claimed that 28% at peak... you just put it together because you are an idiot.
oh wait... i forgot, it must be your special 86 base na that has that 70hp gain at the peak that beats t2s...
and ya, have been across a few na rx7s....
it is as funny as someone who thinks an exhaust would add 70hp on a NA rx-7
yup... just plain retarded.
i find that the dumbest thing i have ever read. have you ever worked on an engine, or seen a dyno sheet? at all? anywhere?
it isnt going to add 28% to 146hp. your NA rx-7 does not make 146hp across the whole rpm band. it makes like 20hp @ 2500rpm, and that 28% peak increase is probably at that rpm, which boost that power to 25.6hp... not a 70hp gain at peak power. mazdatrix never claimed that 28% at peak... you just put it together because you are an idiot.
oh wait... i forgot, it must be your special 86 base na that has that 70hp gain at the peak that beats t2s...
and ya, have been across a few na rx7s....
like i said to the OP if you want real info on n/a modding pm or AIM me, i've had nothing but n/a's with several different exhaust setups and real world comparisons instead of dyno sheets. all that matters to people on this forum are dyno sheets and they call BS on anything else.
and on that note, i'll post dyno sheets of my stock ported motor in a few weeks when i get there (maybe this weekend)
edit: on a side note, i see you are in CA slpin, you ever get to buttonwillow? or any tracks close to you? if so let me know about some events happening in november or december and i'll come out and drive with you and show you what a properly modded n/a can do. just some fun, i intend on going out there anyways to run on buttonwillow and GMR and a few other places. and excuse me if i seem a bit pissed off or rude, i've been messing with stock ported n/a's for 7 or 8 years now and have personally seen some freak *** n/a's that make power that they shouldn't, my first one was stock ported and was running 14.1-14.3 at the strip with full exhaust as only mod, i had a time slip of it until i wrecked the car and it was crushed with it (i was asleep for two weeks on medication). some n/a's make power, some dont. my vert i was running a few months ago only had the RB true dual and an underdrive pulley as the only real power mods and it was pulling almost even with my buddies stock S2K (240hp).
oh and my current car, i raced an 04 STi with ECU as only mod and he said he was putting down 320-330hp, he pulled me by ~4-5 cars, and ran a S13 with an SR20DET, 3" exhaust and BOV and he pulled me by only about 1-1.5 cars, he ran that STi as well and lost by 3-4 cars. so guessing the power of the S13 i would say ~250-270.
Last edited by Agent_D; Jul 9, 2007 at 12:33 AM.
Either leave it functioning or leave it open.
BC
hey
i am actually in nor-cal
so thunderhill would be a track near me.
if you really have a that well tuned na, serious props to you... but to tell you the truth, i am extremely skeptical about the claims you have made. if you are around my area, i definately would like to see your car in action - if you have found a setup that works that well, i guess there are a few thigns we could learn from each other!
the low 14 second stock port na, now that is somethign that i really want to see....
Alan
[QUOTE=Agent_D;7116887]
like i said to the OP if you want real info on n/a modding pm or AIM me, i've had nothing but n/a's with several different exhaust setups and real world comparisons instead of dyno sheets. all that matters to people on this forum are dyno sheets and they call BS on anything else.
and on that note, i'll post dyno sheets of my stock ported motor in a few weeks when i get there (maybe this weekend)
edit: on a side note, i see you are in CA slpin, you ever get to buttonwillow? or any tracks close to you? if so let me know about some events happening in november or december and i'll come out and drive with you and show you what a properly modded n/a can do. just some fun, i intend on going out there anyways to run on buttonwillow and GMR and a few other places. and excuse me if i seem a bit pissed off or rude, i've been messing with stock ported n/a's for 7 or 8 years now and have personally seen some freak *** n/a's that make power that they shouldn't, my first one was stock ported and was running 14.1-14.3 at the strip with full exhaust as only mod, i had a time slip of it until i wrecked the car and it was crushed with it (i was asleep for two weeks on medication). some n/a's make power, some dont. my vert i was running a few months ago only had the RB true dual and an underdrive pulley as the only real power mods and it was pulling almost even with my buddies stock S2K (240hp).
oh and my current car, i raced an 04 STi with ECU as only mod and he said he was putting down 320-330hp, he pulled me by ~4-5 cars, and ran a S13 with an SR20DET, 3" exhaust and BOV and he pulled me by only about 1-1.5 cars, he ran that STi as well and lost by 3-4 cars. so guessing the power of the S13 i would say ~250-270.
i am actually in nor-cal
so thunderhill would be a track near me.
if you really have a that well tuned na, serious props to you... but to tell you the truth, i am extremely skeptical about the claims you have made. if you are around my area, i definately would like to see your car in action - if you have found a setup that works that well, i guess there are a few thigns we could learn from each other!
the low 14 second stock port na, now that is somethign that i really want to see....
Alan
[QUOTE=Agent_D;7116887]
like i said to the OP if you want real info on n/a modding pm or AIM me, i've had nothing but n/a's with several different exhaust setups and real world comparisons instead of dyno sheets. all that matters to people on this forum are dyno sheets and they call BS on anything else.
and on that note, i'll post dyno sheets of my stock ported motor in a few weeks when i get there (maybe this weekend)
edit: on a side note, i see you are in CA slpin, you ever get to buttonwillow? or any tracks close to you? if so let me know about some events happening in november or december and i'll come out and drive with you and show you what a properly modded n/a can do. just some fun, i intend on going out there anyways to run on buttonwillow and GMR and a few other places. and excuse me if i seem a bit pissed off or rude, i've been messing with stock ported n/a's for 7 or 8 years now and have personally seen some freak *** n/a's that make power that they shouldn't, my first one was stock ported and was running 14.1-14.3 at the strip with full exhaust as only mod, i had a time slip of it until i wrecked the car and it was crushed with it (i was asleep for two weeks on medication). some n/a's make power, some dont. my vert i was running a few months ago only had the RB true dual and an underdrive pulley as the only real power mods and it was pulling almost even with my buddies stock S2K (240hp).
oh and my current car, i raced an 04 STi with ECU as only mod and he said he was putting down 320-330hp, he pulled me by ~4-5 cars, and ran a S13 with an SR20DET, 3" exhaust and BOV and he pulled me by only about 1-1.5 cars, he ran that STi as well and lost by 3-4 cars. so guessing the power of the S13 i would say ~250-270.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 0
From: Comstock Park, MI 49321
ok here is exactly what I did to my 86 n/a not saying everything gave power just going to list what I have done..
FULL TUNE UP!
removed rats nest, egr, carbon canister, air pump, all ac stuff
pulled off the omp and injectors
put on a rb dual alt pulley
removed my 6 port sleeves (I would have kept them but for some reason after removing the rats nest and emisions they would not open anymore)
racing beat road race exhaust (dual) all pieces excpet with stock mufflers (I do plan for RB mufflers)
pulled the stock air box and put a cone filter in the stock location ( I plan to move the filter up front in the air dam)
enkei racing rims
summitumo tires (200 grip rating)
racing seats (racing style)
smaller diam steering wheel (would like to back to stock size)
I premix 1oz per 1 gal of gas
I seafoam the car roughly once a month through the intake vac hose
I use a s-afc (1 not 2) to pull a little fuel between 3-5k
and well thats about it..
My only complaint about anything I have done is the exhaust I like it but if I did it again I would not buy the pre-silencer the piece is ugly, not durable, and the insides have allready worn out I would just buy the flanges and weld up two pipes next time.
FULL TUNE UP!
removed rats nest, egr, carbon canister, air pump, all ac stuff
pulled off the omp and injectors
put on a rb dual alt pulley
removed my 6 port sleeves (I would have kept them but for some reason after removing the rats nest and emisions they would not open anymore)
racing beat road race exhaust (dual) all pieces excpet with stock mufflers (I do plan for RB mufflers)
pulled the stock air box and put a cone filter in the stock location ( I plan to move the filter up front in the air dam)
enkei racing rims
summitumo tires (200 grip rating)
racing seats (racing style)
smaller diam steering wheel (would like to back to stock size)
I premix 1oz per 1 gal of gas
I seafoam the car roughly once a month through the intake vac hose
I use a s-afc (1 not 2) to pull a little fuel between 3-5k
and well thats about it..
My only complaint about anything I have done is the exhaust I like it but if I did it again I would not buy the pre-silencer the piece is ugly, not durable, and the insides have allready worn out I would just buy the flanges and weld up two pipes next time.
Dyno sheet! Now!
I call B.S.
I've seen people post I got X on my dyno from doing Y. And I have a basic understanding on how an exhaust works. Agent_D is pulling numbers out of his bung hole.
Here are the easy ways to get power, in order of importance: air pump or electronic 5th and 6th port activation (no HP gain, but w/o it you'll lose power after next upgrade), performance catalytic converter (or through pipe), mufflers, cold air intake (cone filter + cold air box), VDI (from an S5), Royal Purple oil. All together should give you around 35HP. Beyond that there is very little to gain without tuning or opening the engine.
I call B.S.
I've seen people post I got X on my dyno from doing Y. And I have a basic understanding on how an exhaust works. Agent_D is pulling numbers out of his bung hole.
Here are the easy ways to get power, in order of importance: air pump or electronic 5th and 6th port activation (no HP gain, but w/o it you'll lose power after next upgrade), performance catalytic converter (or through pipe), mufflers, cold air intake (cone filter + cold air box), VDI (from an S5), Royal Purple oil. All together should give you around 35HP. Beyond that there is very little to gain without tuning or opening the engine.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 0
From: Comstock Park, MI 49321
royal purple will not give u hp... watch there "movie" again they changd a car that had OLD dirty oil in it for fresh royal purple.. of course there will be a gain because the old oil was croken down and causing friction...
btw they did not "gain" hp what they did was bring back the life of the engine by freshing up the oil..
its like an electric fan the motor only has so much power u put the fan on and u dont GAIN hp u just lower the residual drag yada yada...
any car with FRESH oil convenitonal or synthetic will run better and will show better numbers on a dyno then one with worn out oil
btw they did not "gain" hp what they did was bring back the life of the engine by freshing up the oil..
its like an electric fan the motor only has so much power u put the fan on and u dont GAIN hp u just lower the residual drag yada yada...
any car with FRESH oil convenitonal or synthetic will run better and will show better numbers on a dyno then one with worn out oil
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