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Air Flow Meter?...long post...no start..

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Old 01-15-04, 07:00 PM
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Air Flow Meter?...long post...no start..

hi, got a few questions, yes ive used the search but have yet to find anything really helpfull to me, sorry.

anyway let me begin with the basic story of the car so we're on the same page cause i need some help here, the car is an 88' 10th annoversary i got from my aunt after she blew it up on a road trip after some tard mechanic told her the overheating was normal for rotories, has 140,000 miles and 100% stock, it sat in her driveway for 6-7 years before i found it and got it from her.

i consider myself an above average/good mechanic but this car is really kicking my *** lately. well i rebuilt the engine and replaced almost all the housings etc and it worked perfectly as soon as it was all back together, boosted fine, fast as hell etc just had a lumpy idle like a little miss no backfiring or anything of the sort, anyway i drove it to as my daily driver and had noticed it seemed to be loseing power slowly overtime in the course of a month or two.

i decided to adjust a few little things that had been bothering me such as the idle so i checked the timing and found it slightly advanced from where the FSM said it should be so i set it correctly and found the car to run really crummy and half the power it had before so i set the timing back to slightly advanced where it was running ok right before, however this time the bolt to tighten down the crank angle sensor decided to snap but the CAS was still firmly holding its position so i decided to mess with it another day when i had more time to get the bolt out and repair it correctly since it snapped flush with the front cover, anyway bled the clutch slave cylinder since it felt a little sloppy to me and then tightened an exhaust bolt on the back of the turbo to the downpipe that i had either left loose by mistake or had worked loose on its own but was causeing a minor exhaust leak.

afterwards the car started up just fine and i drove it around a little less than a mile and noticed it was running badly and all of the sudden i had the 3,800 hesitation ive heard of here only worse than normally described in my opinion, it was as if someone turned the engine off at 4k rpm and it restarted below it, the engine easily reved above 4k without a load but while driving it just couldnt do it, also before i adjusted anything this day i had also noticed the boost hadnt been going to the top of the factory gauge as it normally had, well by the time i got it home it was as if the car was running on one rotor, idle was 200 rpm lower and i couldnt get over 30mph i immediately assume the CAS was a little looser than i had thought and had moved however when i checked it was exactly on the mark i had left it at so i started to think oh hell i blew something up so i broke out the compression gauge and found a perfect 95psi on all 3 bounces of each rotor, then i checked spark the easiest way i could think of by hooking the timing light up to each plug and watching the light, i noticed the trailing side seemed to skip a little but it had no effect on the engine when this happened so i think my light may be getting old.

Day 2, the car couldnt idle, ran on what still felt like one rotor and if i released my foot from the gas it just died, again timing still perfect and compression perfect so i started thinking back presure and tore off the exhaust right behind the turbo, nothing changed cept i pissed off a few neighbors, changed the plugs with some spares i had when i noticed the ones on rotor 1 were wet with gas, still had spark accorinding to my timing light and tried several different plugs but nothing changed engine vacuum was half of normal and fual presure pegged at 30 psi while it was sputtering/running but i noticed when i shut it off the hold presure would drop to zero after about 20 minutes or so but i dout this is a flooding problem as ive had this thing running for an hour at one time on what feels like one rotor and it promptly starts back up, oh and no backfiring no smoke no fual smell no afterburn, notta.

Day 3 the thing wont even start so i grab my DMM and start randomly checking anything i can find, checked TPS, coils etc still have spark and fual work my way to the air flow meter and find that while its unpluged and i wire the fual pump directly to the battery i can get the car to sputter and start for a few seconds but touching the gas kills it, i tear the AFM out and test it with the DMM i find the fual part to be ok, the temp sensor part has no resistance at all, and the thing reads fully open with the flap about 1/4 of the way opened, so i know the AFM is not working correctly however i have max $200 to spend on this at the moment and was wondering if this messed up AFM was the cause of my gradual power loss lately but not the whole problem with it running on what feels like one rotor, i mean i assume with the AFM unplugged and the fual pump jumpered it should go into some sort of limp home mode and atleast running badly but running period correct? i'm going to get another 5 gallons of gas and pray, and also run another ground to the CAS as ive started to wonder if that bolt was the only decent ground it had and thats somehow causing this. then tear off the upper intake manifold and start checking injectors and random wiring. will respond with results

Basicly im looking for suggestions on someting i may have overlooked that might cause similar results to what i stated other than the AFM because the new one will eat my whole $200 from autozone which prolly wont even fit and then id be SOL for another 2-3 months, since im pretty broke lately, also would love to hear about other's AFM's going out and if it had similar symtoms so i can decided to get the new one or keep looking and also if common AFMs just die all at once or if its a slow thing like this, sorry never had much experience with AFMs cept on cars which the computer said they were broke however my check engine light is not on. sorry for the long post but this really sucks and any questions comments or suggestions would be great, or if anyone in the memphis,TN area has a used one for sale please let me know.

oh and by the way i havent heard or found any vacuum leaks but im still looking.
Old 01-15-04, 08:57 PM
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are you losing any coolant? what is the manufacture date on the sticker inside the driver door jamb? i know the car is an 88 but if the car was made before june or july of 87(can't remember the exact month) it's equipped with a resistor pack mounted on the passenger side fenderwell under the airbox. it's a shiny aluminum box. it increases the injector resistance before the signal reaches the computer. sometimes it can go bad causing your secondary injectors not to come on, causing the bad 4000 rpm cutout. if it has it, test it with a mulitmeter like the FSM says. if it doesn't have the resistor pack i would lean more toward the air flow meter or maybe even the ECU. you might want the check the continuity of the wiring harness, there might be a short.
Old 01-15-04, 09:22 PM
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Made in march of 88, and no there is no coolant loss at all, however under the airbox there is a metal plate covering 3 or so solenoids or what look to be solenoids, is this what you were refering to, althought my car was made after june of 87? anyway i got called into work so ill have to mess with it more tommorow and see the results of my newest ideas, thanks for the respone and ill check more into the piece you mentioned and let you know tommorow.
Old 01-15-04, 10:46 PM
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that's the fuel pump relay you're talking about. if it had the resistor pack it would be mounted on the front side of passenger side fender well under the airbox. i'd try a different air flow meter. i saw one for a 87-88 turbo on thepartstrader.com for $100 you might want to check it out.
Old 02-07-04, 08:07 PM
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Update, ok this thing still isnt fixed and i cannot find a working AFM anywhere, ordered several from autozone and other places like it and they are all too small in that the side from the turbo inlet duct is about an inch smaller than the one on my car, i know the one on my car is the correct one or so i assume since the sticker says N318 13 210, ordered some used ones online only to find their just as blown as mine is. so now i have a legion of useless AFMs. yes i used different multi meters to test them and yes they all do the same thing when installed on the car in that, i crank it and nothing happens but if i crank it at WOT then let off the gas it will sputter up to 2k rpm then die immediately afterwards.

All of the AFMs get no where near the factory spec resistance between any pins, they all read along the lines of 0.02 ohms and vary with the vane opening as they should but way way below the resistance range their supposed to and the temp sensors reads around 0.24 also. anyway im stating all this incase anyone is an electrical engineer or something and maybe has an electrical test chart etc of the internal board in the AFM which i dout but still felt id ask so maybe i can spend some cash at radioshack and a few hours with a soldering iron to get one working....

Also ive been considering buying another engine control system like the microtechs etc to just eliminate all of the 16 year old sensors that like to break at really bad times like this, i like the idea of leaving the 10th ae stock and all but now i dont really care anymore. anyway im stating this because im not exactly rich and $1,000 for one would kinda sting a bit so im asking if anyone knows of a standalone type system that would eliminate the AFM but bit a lil less pricey if thats possible at all.

Anyway the compression is still 95psi with each bounce on both rotors, i know its not floded and the fual hold presure stays around 30psi, its not a ground at the CAS as ive already tried grounding that beter, and have checked over everything else on the car i have the tools to do.

Well assuming yall were in my posistion what would you do?
A. keep buying used AFMs online and pray for a good one
B. shell out $500-$1,000 for a new/rebuilt one
C. standalone system and be broke
D. buy a bike

Not that i have anything against walking to work in the freezing cold or anything but this is kinda getting old.. opinions?..ideas?
Old 02-07-04, 08:14 PM
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holy **** your car has like exact same problem as me. i bought a used but working afm from Kevin Landers and it's gonna be here on Monday, I pray that it lets my car run.. It hasnt run in 5 months =/
Old 02-09-04, 03:05 PM
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new afm didnt fix it, i have a huge vacuum leak.. somewhere.
Old 02-09-04, 03:11 PM
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Cloead... I'm praying for you man. If I had the money for Zack's car a week earlier I'd have your problem.

I hope that works!
Old 02-14-04, 04:39 PM
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thanks.. yeah i dunno it sucks but bleh. =/ oh well.
Old 02-14-04, 06:54 PM
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well uh i finally got ahold of a functioning used AFM that tested fine with the multimeter so i slapped it on and nothing at all changed so i got frustrated and went back to the basics fuel, air, spark to start over. anyway i checked over all the air hoses etc and started changing fuel filters even though i had just done them during the rubuild did the front one and didnt notice anything however while installing the fuel pump back in the tank after replacing the strainer which was pretty dirty i noticed a gritty noise so i stuck my hand in the tank to discover shitloads of sand/rust/cement something nasty with a redish gray color. easily a handfull and since i drained the tank and refilled it during the rebuild, i think i must have pissed someone off and maybe left my car unlocked one night im not sure, anyway im a little curious as to how this stuff made it past the strainer and the main fuel filter because upon removing my injectors i found both fuel rails completely caked internally with the stuff and the injectors of course. so i think ive found my problem however i dont understand how the car ran at all with a bad AFM or with this much crap in the fuel lines, i had to use a screwdriver to break it out of the secondary rails.

Well uh i drained my gas tank and never noticed this stuff during the rebuild, is it possible this could be just normal rust since the car sat for so long before i got it and only had to drain about 3 gallons of bad gas from it sitting for those years, and it was just stuck/clumped behind the baffles. also can anyone recommend a product to clean up the tank when i remove it in a few days and does anyone think its possible to soak the injectors in carb cleaner for a week or so and blast em with compressed air to make them functional again?

Anyway add this to the list of things to check if you have any of the symptoms i did, ill respond whenever i get the tank cleaned and the injectors cleaned or replaced.
Old 02-22-04, 10:42 PM
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well let me know how that goes.. i kinda got my car to move on its own by wedging something in my afm to hold the flapper open so i could get it out of my dads garage.. but other than that im pretty clueles..

gonna get it towed back home tomarrow and start taking crap apart i guess
Old 02-23-04, 03:35 AM
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well mines running for now, method i used for cleaning up the mess was to remove the fuel tank, flush it a LOT with a water hose, then i filled it full and kicked the **** out of it from every angle i could while it was filled and sitting on the ground in an attempt to break loose anything i could inside the tank, also just shoock it around while holding it with a few gallons of water in it by hand and within about 2 hours of doing this over and over and over again the water i poured out of it eventually started comming out clean so i then shoved a bath towel inside it through the fuel pump hole and blasted every opening of it i could find with compressed air for several minutes.

i used a full can of carb cleaner to kinda reverse flush the fuel lines from the engine back to the tank, and a lil compressed air through them to help out.

For the injectors and rails i simply soaked the rails for a few hours in the carb cleaner stuff you buy in a 1 gallon can, after i removed the FPR and pulsation damper of course. the injectors i cleaned by hooking a vacuum pump to the fuel rail sides of them and then useing a few cans of carb cleaner with the spray needle to spray the cleaner through the injectors from the fuel outlet side of the injectors. i did this several times to each injector also untill the cleaner came out clean and the injectors held a steady vacuum reading from the fuel rail sides of them, only one of them held vacuum before i started cleaning them. after i finshed and reassembled everything i put in a can of marvel mystery oil in the tank and completely filled it to try and stop/prevent any further rust from what little water might have remained in the tank.

It started right up afterwards and none of the injectors seem to be leaking because i can shut the car off with the ignition, run into a store buy cigarettes and run back out and it starts within 2 seconds of cranking like it used to, and the idle got a lot better, however it still has a few problems im thinking i may have caused. for one the accelerated warmup system doesnt work correctly anymore and im pretty clueless about this one now, the car is hell to get started when its cold outside and been sitting overnight, i have to pump the gas once while its cranking to get it to start but then when it does the warm up system doesnt work and go to 3k rpm like usual, instead it just surges between 1k and 1.5k rpm for 20 or so seconds then smoothes out. it starts up fine on warmer days but still does the surging thing for 20 seconds instead of reving to 3k like it should. also i lose a noticeable ammount of power when its fully warmed up after driving for 20 minutes or so and boost is only going to the middle of the factory gaugue now, instead of hitting the top of it by 3k rpm like it used to, i think im getting full boost however because my head still hits the seat when it kicks in so im kinda thinking its a wiring problem.

anyway if anyone reads through all this, mind giving other sugestions to what might be causing my newest problems? im pretty sure the TPS is out of adjustment since i messed with it a little before i found my fuel problem but im not sure how it could effect boost or the warmup system, im off tommorow so ill be going through all the hoses for vacuum leaks etc and adjusting that tommorow, will repost with results.

And Cloead, if all this sounds too familiar you might wanna check out your injectors etc. my car still sputtered around with like 5hp in the early stages of them clogging and also i was still able to make it sputter over and run breifly by blocking the AFM open also. i wish i had a camera to take some pics of the crap that was in them, it was powder almost and completely filled the secondary rail and half of the main rail along with all of the injectors, was packed in there so tight i had to use a small screwdriver to get most of it out of the rails and hoses before cleaning like i did. fuel pressure was perfect from every point i could measure it at before removing the upper intake manifold and somehow enough gas seaped through the injectors with all this **** in them to make the plugs wet with gas which really threw me off at first. there was also NO restriction in the fuel filters i found by simply blowing through them, so i personally will never cheap out on fuel filters again and get the crummy autozone filters, im considering running 3 or 4 filters inline since this crap had no problem making it through the filter last time and im a little worried it may happen again since i couldnt get 100% of the **** stuck in the fuel tank out. it only takes an upper intake manifold gasket and some coolant to remove/check/replace the injectors and autozone along with many other auto parts stores sell rolls of gasket papper for like $10 to make your own gasket if you cant get a real one locally or easily and ive always had good luck useing the stuff when i needed to. and dont forget the check the resistance of the injectors while their out.

Anyway thats the update on my car and yes i know none of this is the correct way to do things however im sure we've all bent the rules a lil when things needed to get done. car has been running fine for about 4 days and over a tank of gas so far excpet for the problems mentioned above which have been around since i first reassembled the thing after my cleaning experiment.

oh yeah and does anyone know where i might be able to buy a new fuel tank? mazda maybe still have some around? anyone know?
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