Hey everyone, I need some help.

The car is an 89 TII. It sat for 1.5 years and now it doesn't stay running. After pulling it out of storage, I installed new plugs & wires and a new fuel filter. I put some oil in the leading plug holes and turned the engine over by hand. I checked all the plugs for spark while cranking and they were good. After some cranking, it started but only with wide open throttle (which, if relevant, cuts fuel on my EMS) and i could keep it running around 4k RPMs for about 30 seconds by holding WOT and letting off, but inevitably it would stall (especially after RPMs went below 3k). While it was running, it was smoking terribly (i could have smoked out a football stadium), but I assume that was due to the oil. I was able to start it about 8 times under these same conditions with the same result. Suspecting a fuel problem, I drained the gas, added 10 fresh gallons w/ premix and 2/3 can of SeaFoam (cause it's supposed to help with varnished gas). It started one last time for about 30 seconds and smoked profusely before it stalled. Now it won't start without starting fluid and WOT. Also when it does start, it stalls within 10 seconds.

My troubleshooting so far:
Spark:
* Fresh plugs and wires
* Spark verified visually (nice strong arc)

Compression:
* Both rotors give 3 peaks at 90 PSI with the valve removed and give 92 PSI with the valve

Gas:
* Fresh fuel filter
* Fresh gas (premium w/ premix at 100:1)
* 2/3 can of seafoam
* Fuel pump (only) is producing 80 PSI (normal) which is sustained for 20 min after the pump is turned off (normal).
* The fuel line on engine-side of the fuel filter shows 40PSI (normal) with the fuel pump on and the engine off, but drops nearly to 0PSI within a minute after turning off the pump (NOT normal?).
* I can't test the fuel pressure at idle until the car is able to idle.
* Pulled the primary fuel rail and had a friend crank the car while I watched the injectors. They're not leaky and produce a nice fine mist. (Assumed the secondaries are ok cause they're newer... plus they're staged, so they shouldn't affect idle)

Intake:
* Checked the intake for obstructions - no nests or debris of any kind.
* Fresh vacuum lines

Oil:
* Reads right at the full line and smells a bit like gas.

Here are the relevant mods:
Haltech E8 - this was installed and well-tuned before the car was decommissioned. (also implies that the typical issues with the stock ECU don't apply)
720cc secondary injectors and an FD fuel pump
OMP removed and premixing to compensate
FC1000 ignition
Emissions removed and fresh vacuum lines - so, leaks are unlikely


It has spark, gas, and compression. I'm out of ideas. So I have 2 questions:
1. The only thing that didn't seem up to spec was the fuel line pressure on the engine side of the filter. It would leak pressure quickly after the pump was turned off. How critical is this? Do I really need to spend the $300 for a new fuel rail/pressure regulator?
2. Fresh ideas? What am I missing?

Thanks for any help you can provide!
Jake

 

how long can you keep it running? When I first got my 87 N/A way back when, it would flood terribly. I would have to nurse it along for up to 5 minutes to keep it alive and yes, it would smoke for a very very long time to the point where i felt nauseous (outside!) but once all the smoke seemed to be dissipating, it would stay running on its own...

 

full throttle would mean its getting a good amount of fuel i'd say...

keep it running and let her get warm....

 

It only runs for about 10 to 15 seconds and then sputters and stalls, no way to keep it running under its own power. I'm going to try tow-starting it so I can keep it going without smoking the starter.

So the running theory is that the engine just needs to clear out?

 

Looks like that worked.
We towed it around for about 10 min and it started running (albeit rough). I was able to keep it running by continuously pumping the throttle (which surges the fuel). However it leans out and stalls when I try to rev or put much load on it (e.g. letting the clutch out too fast). By constantly pumping it, I was able to keep it running long enough to get warm, which seemed to clear it out a bit. Now it idles on its own, but still can't handle throttle pumps or load.

I think this either points to my secondary injectors (the ones I didn't test, lol) or somehow all my fuel maps are suddenly lean (unlikely). So, I'll pull it apart again tomorrow. If anybody has any additional ideas, let me know.

Otherwise, thanks!

 

Wow a fellow michigander... Sorry I know this doesn't help but its still nice to hear from an FC owner in Michigan. If you find it to indeed be leaky injectors I know a place that will clean and balance them and have them back to you in less than a week for like $150 or so. Also I found a place in Big Rapids I have not used but has been in business for 19 years that could clean them and get them back to you quicker/cheaper I am sure. They charge $16 a piece to flow test and clean. I am sure they balance them back to factory specs since it says in their FAQ that this is what they do. http://www.cruzinperformance.com/

 

+1 for CruzinPerformance.com!

[Formerly of East Tawas, MI.]

 

Woops!

 

are the fuel tests done after you changed the gas or before?, if it was before try the measurements agian

 

Yeah, it became harder to keep in touch after the mirotaryclub lost momentum. Unfortunately, I'll only be a Michigander for another couple weeks! I'll be moving to CA, but the car will probably get sold to another Michigander.

Thanks for the tip!

It's looking like I won't have to get the injectors cleaned at all. I spent some time with the EMS trying to explain the leaning under load and noticed that the MAP signal was stuck at -9.7 PSI, so the EMS wasn't even reaching the part of the fuel map that commands the secondaries. Hopefully after I replace the MAP sensor, it will be like new again!

 

I have just swapped a 86 S4 motor that has been sitting for a few years in to a 88TII. After the first few starts it ran fine. Then I went to pull it out of the garage, and it started smoking big time. much to the same you were expresssing. After I drove it for a few miles it finely cleared up and now it runs good. By the way, I am in Auburn, Mi. My parents are from Port Huron.

Bill

 

THe EMS thingy is what gets me thinking.

My car wouldnt start one time because of the temp sensor behind the thermostat housing.
It just kept turning.

 

Try adjusting the idle enrichment screw on the passenger sturt tower.

Put it all the way to the Lean side. L= lean R = rich

 

plug in a computer and take a look at the diag screen. check your TPS sweeps.

 

Thanks for all the good ideas everyone.

I should have followed up before, but since this is getting attention again I'll do it now.

The problem was a combination of two things:
1. Since I added oil to the rotors before starting it (prevent seal failure) it was loaded up. Once I got it running well, it cleared out and stopped smoking excessively.

2. The faulty MAP sensor was tricking the EMS to only use the -9.7PSI load bar in the map (which would cause it to be lean for higher load). For you non-EMS folks; the fuel map is a set of injection duty cycles for every RPM and manifold pressure combination. Under higher load (e.g. Boosting, or throttle pumps) you dump more fuel to complement the increased air flow. Since my ECU thought the pressure was always in vacuum, it never increased the fuel and so the engine would fall on its face. The reason I originally thought it was the secondary injectors is because they are ALSO configured to kick in at higher load values (a.k.a. "staged injection") so that would also cause the engine to die under higher loads.

In summary: When you resurrect a car that's been sitting, be sure to oil the rotors, but expect it to be loaded up. A good long pull start helped me fix that. Also check your sensors, especially if you use an EMS, because they're particularly critical and they're very easy to monitor on the tuner screen (Haltech).

One final tip for future searchers:
I had trouble finding the right 3-BAR MAP sensor for Haltech (sure, it can calibrate to any sensor... but if you've already tuned with the one they sell, you're likely going to have to retune if you don't get a matching sensor). The correct sensor can be ordered from any auto part store and is from a 1989 Trans Am.

Hope this helps put this thread to rest!

Thanks again to those who helped.

 

wow man, you still have this thing? hope you get it fixed up soon!

 

What is the point in oiling the rotors? I've never heard of this. My dad has let his car sit for a couple of years and we are trying to get it running again and can't it will turn over with carb cleaner sprayed into the tb but the second you stop spraying it it dies. It wouldn't turn over at all if a seal had given out on him right?

 

It IS fixed... solution above. No more problems. Runs like a champ.

It's just not sold yet. Lots of people want it, noone can get the cash together.
I'll put up another post once I get settled in the new apt.

 

Lets not hijack this thread, please.
I put a few squirts of TCW3 2-cycle oil in the spark plug holes and turned it over by hand about 5 times. Its just a good idea to make sure there's a good seal and to help everything move better.

If you're worried about the apex seals, do a compression check (you can find instructions if you search).

If you need other help in resurrecting a car, try searching. I found plenty of info while I was troubleshooting this problem. The instructions from aaroncake were particularly helpful.

 

I'm not hijacking anything just asking a question. What do you care anyway you got the car running.