19psi on stock IC and Injectors...
09-02-03, 09:39 AM
#26
There are people that run the stock turbo at 14 and 15 psi. I have seen 14 on my T-II back when it was a stock turbo using a profec-B and some simple fuel system upgrades. Yes the car was fast. It doesn't mean that the turbo likes it though. I am sure it was inefficient as hell. Your question is can the turbo boost 19 psi. Yes. It 'could' boost 30 psi. Is it going to make any power here? No. At what rpm are you trying to make all this boost and why? You do realize that cfm and boost are two totally different animals. The stock turbo starts falling off after 5000 rpm's or so at only 6 or 7 psi simply because it can not flow enough cfm of air. It only gets worse the more boost you use. Look at the inlet and outlet size of that turbo. Now go compare it to the total intake runner area or the total area of the throttlebody or intake ports. Hell go compare the inlet size to the afm flapper door area. Where is the restriction on that engine? I'll give you a hint, it looks like a hairdryer, is mounted low on the passenger side of the engine, and has HT-18 stamped on it. What exhaust are you running? 10 psi of boost on a free flowing exhaust will be MUCH faster than 10 psi on the stock restrictive exhaust. If the engine can't get air out fast enough, it only has to work that much harder on the intake side to make up for it. The HT-18 is too small for the stock engine since it can't flow enough air. Go ahead and run 19 psi. I will race you with my 60-1 set at only 10 psi. I guarantee that my car is faster. This is precisely why there are som many people that blow up rotaries easily and then blame it on a weak engine. It isn't the engines fault, it's the owners fault. I don't care who's Volvo can run what psi on what turbo. Yes it is possible for the HT-18 to run at 19 psi. It is NOT possible for it to run at 19 psi and produce enough cfm of air to work well on any style of rotary engine at any usable rpm that would be advantageous and it definitely won't be cold enough to be efficient. No one has a compressor map, and no one needs one. Even if you can read a compressor map, do you know how much your engine flows?
09-02-03, 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by rotarygod
There are people that run the stock turbo at 14 and 15 psi. I have seen 14 on my T-II back when it was a stock turbo using a profec-B and some simple fuel system upgrades. Yes the car was fast. It doesn't mean that the turbo likes it though. I am sure it was inefficient as hell. Your question is can the turbo boost 19 psi. Yes. It 'could' boost 30 psi. Is it going to make any power here? No. At what rpm are you trying to make all this boost and why? You do realize that cfm and boost are two totally different animals. The stock turbo starts falling off after 5000 rpm's or so at only 6 or 7 psi simply because it can not flow enough cfm of air. It only gets worse the more boost you use. Look at the inlet and outlet size of that turbo. Now go compare it to the total intake runner area or the total area of the throttlebody or intake ports. Hell go compare the inlet size to the afm flapper door area. Where is the restriction on that engine? I'll give you a hint, it looks like a hairdryer, is mounted low on the passenger side of the engine, and has HT-18 stamped on it. What exhaust are you running? 10 psi of boost on a free flowing exhaust will be MUCH faster than 10 psi on the stock restrictive exhaust. If the engine can't get air out fast enough, it only has to work that much harder on the intake side to make up for it. The HT-18 is too small for the stock engine since it can't flow enough air. Go ahead and run 19 psi. I will race you with my 60-1 set at only 10 psi. I guarantee that my car is faster. This is precisely why there are som many people that blow up rotaries easily and then blame it on a weak engine. It isn't the engines fault, it's the owners fault. I don't care who's Volvo can run what psi on what turbo. Yes it is possible for the HT-18 to run at 19 psi. It is NOT possible for it to run at 19 psi and produce enough cfm of air to work well on any style of rotary engine at any usable rpm that would be advantageous and it definitely won't be cold enough to be efficient. No one has a compressor map, and no one needs one. Even if you can read a compressor map, do you know how much your engine flows?
There are people that run the stock turbo at 14 and 15 psi. I have seen 14 on my T-II back when it was a stock turbo using a profec-B and some simple fuel system upgrades. Yes the car was fast. It doesn't mean that the turbo likes it though. I am sure it was inefficient as hell. Your question is can the turbo boost 19 psi. Yes. It 'could' boost 30 psi. Is it going to make any power here? No. At what rpm are you trying to make all this boost and why? You do realize that cfm and boost are two totally different animals. The stock turbo starts falling off after 5000 rpm's or so at only 6 or 7 psi simply because it can not flow enough cfm of air. It only gets worse the more boost you use. Look at the inlet and outlet size of that turbo. Now go compare it to the total intake runner area or the total area of the throttlebody or intake ports. Hell go compare the inlet size to the afm flapper door area. Where is the restriction on that engine? I'll give you a hint, it looks like a hairdryer, is mounted low on the passenger side of the engine, and has HT-18 stamped on it. What exhaust are you running? 10 psi of boost on a free flowing exhaust will be MUCH faster than 10 psi on the stock restrictive exhaust. If the engine can't get air out fast enough, it only has to work that much harder on the intake side to make up for it. The HT-18 is too small for the stock engine since it can't flow enough air. Go ahead and run 19 psi. I will race you with my 60-1 set at only 10 psi. I guarantee that my car is faster. This is precisely why there are som many people that blow up rotaries easily and then blame it on a weak engine. It isn't the engines fault, it's the owners fault. I don't care who's Volvo can run what psi on what turbo. Yes it is possible for the HT-18 to run at 19 psi. It is NOT possible for it to run at 19 psi and produce enough cfm of air to work well on any style of rotary engine at any usable rpm that would be advantageous and it definitely won't be cold enough to be efficient. No one has a compressor map, and no one needs one. Even if you can read a compressor map, do you know how much your engine flows?
09-02-03, 11:29 AM
#29
BDC Motorsports
Adam, I believe I have the stock turbo compressor map at home. Trust me; it isn't going to go anywhere at 19psi. It's total overkill on the turbocharger.
B
B
09-02-03, 12:39 PM
#30
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Guys...Youre all getting way bent out of shape here. The point of this thread wasnt to debate about if 19psi was going to be reliable and efficient ( I know its not! )...All I was asking was if the engine could take 19psi from stock turbo on stock IC/injectors. It was just a trick question. Everything I have read on here before ( all the members experience ) told me it couldnt, but drove the car with my own two hands that night at 19psi and it didnt blow up.
Thats all. Im not saying that people on here dont know what theyre talking about. Im not saying my car is magic and somehow is making ungodly power at 19psi...Im just saying it didnt blow up at 19psi like everyone is sure it would.
Geez. Well either way, Im done with this thread.
Thats all. Im not saying that people on here dont know what theyre talking about. Im not saying my car is magic and somehow is making ungodly power at 19psi...Im just saying it didnt blow up at 19psi like everyone is sure it would.
Geez. Well either way, Im done with this thread.
09-02-03, 12:44 PM
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Welp, to end it -- your *** is lucky. You probably detonated like a bitch... and god knows whether or not you weakened your motor by cracking an apex seal. I'd do a compression check mighty quick, and if any signs of failed apex seal show, rebuild it before starting it again, or you will chew it up. Also count your lucky stars. Twice.
Last edited by Fingers; 09-02-03 at 12:50 PM.
09-02-03, 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by adamlewis
Everything I have read on here before ( all the members experience ) told me it couldnt, but drove the car with my own two hands that night at 19psi and it didnt blow up.
Everything I have read on here before ( all the members experience ) told me it couldnt, but drove the car with my own two hands that night at 19psi and it didnt blow up.
I'm sure that everybody would love to see your datalog for that event.
09-02-03, 02:03 PM
#34
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Originally posted by adamlewis
I didnt.
I didnt.
I already have. It was still fine.
I have.
I didnt.
I didnt.
I already have. It was still fine.
I have.
09-02-03, 04:02 PM
#37
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If mazda was anything like mitsubishi when they slapped a big 16G on the Galant VR4 engine, with 510cc injectors to back it up, i'm sure you'd be singing a different tune I love my DSMs
09-02-03, 07:29 PM
#38
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Originally posted by n4ji
I think the only engine strong enough to handle 19psi is the 2JZ... That thing is a beast.
I think the only engine strong enough to handle 19psi is the 2JZ... That thing is a beast.
Yes, the 2JZ-GTE and 3S-GTE are strong assed engines, but a rotary can also generate a lot of power with no internal mods. If he had an aftermarket turbo he could run 19 psi no problem (assuming the fuel can keep up), it's just that the stock one doesn't have the flow capacity to do that with reasonable intake temps.
09-03-03, 07:03 AM
#39
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
I don't suppose that you ever considered that your boost gauge may not be accurate.
I'm sure that everybody would love to see your datalog for that event.
I don't suppose that you ever considered that your boost gauge may not be accurate.
I'm sure that everybody would love to see your datalog for that event.
EDIT: I dont have a datalog for it. The laptop wasnt in the car at the time.
Last edited by adamlewis; 09-03-03 at 07:15 AM.
09-03-03, 07:12 AM
#40
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Originally posted by Fingers
Interesting. How do you know you didn't detonate? Do you have an accurate aftermarket knock sensor? Do you have an EGT gauge to see how lean you actually were? At that pressure, with that little fuel, with so hot an air temp, i'm very impressed your apex seals are still INSIDE your motor, much less knowing your motor is running.
Interesting. How do you know you didn't detonate? Do you have an accurate aftermarket knock sensor? Do you have an EGT gauge to see how lean you actually were? At that pressure, with that little fuel, with so hot an air temp, i'm very impressed your apex seals are still INSIDE your motor, much less knowing your motor is running.
Did you bother to read earlier where I said there was no audible knock and that I was also aware that not all knock is indeed audible?
I guess not...
If you had, logic would have lead you to assume that I was restating the same thing, in fewer words.
This is what Im really starting to dislike about this forum. Its a great place for information, and there certainly are some invaluable people on it (i.e. ReTed, Hailers, NZConvertible, Evil Aviator, etc....) but theres also a lot of regular, everyday people that feel the need to educate me on things Ive already stated that Im aware of. Youre just wasting bandwidth and stroking your own ego by trying to show off your assumed intellectual prowess. If you all just took some time to read the thread and actually process it before jumping down to that submit button, Id wager that this thread wouldnt have made it more than 10 posts.
But alas...here I am, having to explain the same **** all over again.
Fingers, why are you suprised? Have you ran 19psi? Have you seen anyone run 19psi? Or are you just going by hearsay like the majority of this forum?
09-03-03, 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by Cameljoe
BTW. how long did you stay at 19 psi on that run?
BTW. how long did you stay at 19 psi on that run?
I ran it like that all night though. For at least a good 3 hours.
09-03-03, 10:23 AM
#42
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Originally posted by adamlewis
First time was 2nd->4th. So...I guess 10-15 seconds? I dont really know. I lose track of time when Im driving like that and its hard to properly gauge any interval of time.
I ran it like that all night though. For at least a good 3 hours.
First time was 2nd->4th. So...I guess 10-15 seconds? I dont really know. I lose track of time when Im driving like that and its hard to properly gauge any interval of time.
I ran it like that all night though. For at least a good 3 hours.
The high humidity (100%) that night would have helped combat the detonation, but given the small stock intercooler and the inefficiency of the stock turbo at that level, I don't see how you avoided detonation with pump gas. I was hoping to see a datalog showing the intake air temperature. Given 30.00 - 30.08 inHg ambient pressure, 19psi boost would equate to 33.73 - 33.77psia (nearly 2.33 bar) MAP.
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/data/obhistory/KLOU.html
If you plan on continuing to run high boost like that, please hook up the laptop for datalogging so we can see the stats before you blow up your engine and/or turbo.
09-03-03, 01:40 PM
#43
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I'd like to see the stock turbo hit 19psi. 
The most I've seen was 17-18psi - one time was a mistake (MBC was adjusted wrong), and the other time the wastegate hose popped off.
I've had the stock injectors hit 90%+ pulsewidths at 14psi, so this is not recommended by most experts.
I dunno how it'll keep "safe" at 19psi...
-Ted
The most I've seen was 17-18psi - one time was a mistake (MBC was adjusted wrong), and the other time the wastegate hose popped off.
I've had the stock injectors hit 90%+ pulsewidths at 14psi, so this is not recommended by most experts.
I dunno how it'll keep "safe" at 19psi...
-Ted
09-03-03, 01:51 PM
#44
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Originally posted by adamlewis
Fingers, why are you suprised? Have you ran 19psi? Have you seen anyone run 19psi? Or are you just going by hearsay like the majority of this forum?
Fingers, why are you suprised? Have you ran 19psi? Have you seen anyone run 19psi? Or are you just going by hearsay like the majority of this forum?
It's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about because you just contradicted yourself. At first you said "there was no audible knock... not all knock is audible"... yet when I said "you detonated. You must have. There's no way you could not have" you replied with "It didnt detonate". HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT?!? What accurate gauging methods did you use to determine that it didnt detonate? I can GUARANTEE you that it did. If you don't believe me, go crank it up to 19 PSI and drive around for another couple of minutes at full boost.
The collective knowledge of this forum has already told you that anything over 12 psi on the stock turbo is extremely dangerous, heat wise, pressure wise, bearing wise, EVERYTHING.
Just because I wasn't dumb enough to experiment 19 PSI on my own T2 on the stock intercooler and stock injectors, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
If I wanted to stroke my ego, I'd unzip my pants. Showing someone on the interweb that they have no clue what they're talking about is about the last thing that gets my kicks off.
09-03-03, 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by Evil Aviator
I don't think that's possible. You may want to re-check your boost gauge.
The high humidity (100%) that night would have helped combat the detonation, but given the small stock intercooler and the inefficiency of the stock turbo at that level, I don't see how you avoided detonation with pump gas. I was hoping to see a datalog showing the intake air temperature. Given 30.00 - 30.08 inHg ambient pressure, 19psi boost would equate to 33.73 - 33.77psia (nearly 2.33 bar) MAP.
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/data/obhistory/KLOU.html
I don't think that's possible. You may want to re-check your boost gauge.
The high humidity (100%) that night would have helped combat the detonation, but given the small stock intercooler and the inefficiency of the stock turbo at that level, I don't see how you avoided detonation with pump gas. I was hoping to see a datalog showing the intake air temperature. Given 30.00 - 30.08 inHg ambient pressure, 19psi boost would equate to 33.73 - 33.77psia (nearly 2.33 bar) MAP.
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/data/obhistory/KLOU.html
Also, there was about 1/8 tank of 109.5 mixed in with 7/8 93...So I guess it wasnt straight pump gas.
Originally posted by Evil Aviator
If you plan on continuing to run high boost like that, please hook up the laptop for datalogging so we can see the stats before you blow up your engine and/or turbo.
If you plan on continuing to run high boost like that, please hook up the laptop for datalogging so we can see the stats before you blow up your engine and/or turbo.
09-03-03, 02:28 PM
#46
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Originally posted by Fingers
I have ran 22 psi on a talon that was modified to the ****. Never on an RX7. I've never exceeded 10 PSI on my t2.
I have ran 22 psi on a talon that was modified to the ****. Never on an RX7. I've never exceeded 10 PSI on my t2.
Who doesnt know what theyre talking about here?
Originally posted by Fingers
It's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about because you just contradicted yourself. At first you said "there was no audible knock... not all knock is audible"... yet when I said "you detonated. You must have. There's no way you could not have" you replied with "It didnt detonate". HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT?!? What accurate gauging methods did you use to determine that it didnt detonate? I can GUARANTEE you that it did. If you don't believe me, go crank it up to 19 PSI and drive around for another couple of minutes at full boost.
It's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about because you just contradicted yourself. At first you said "there was no audible knock... not all knock is audible"... yet when I said "you detonated. You must have. There's no way you could not have" you replied with "It didnt detonate". HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT?!? What accurate gauging methods did you use to determine that it didnt detonate? I can GUARANTEE you that it did. If you don't believe me, go crank it up to 19 PSI and drive around for another couple of minutes at full boost.
Here..Ill cpoy/paste it for you.
Did you bother to read earlier where I said there was no audible knock and that I was also aware that not all knock is indeed audible?
I guess not...
If you had, logic would have lead you to assume that I was restating the same thing, in fewer words.
I hope that will clear a few things up for you...
Originally posted by Fingers
If I wanted to stroke my ego, I'd unzip my pants.
If I wanted to stroke my ego, I'd unzip my pants.
09-03-03, 02:33 PM
#47
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Originally posted by adamlewis
Ah..So once again youre going by what other people have told you. You have no real experience with it.
Who doesnt know what theyre talking about here?
Ah..So once again youre going by what other people have told you. You have no real experience with it.
Who doesnt know what theyre talking about here?
How about an analogy... say someone comes on here bragging about how funny it just was to run over a dog with their rx7... i reply with "you're a fucktard, and it's not funny. and is also very illegal"... he replies with "so have you tried it yourself? No? then shut up you don't know what you're talking about".
Fine I'll let you keep whatever dignity you have left over and just stop talking.
09-03-03, 03:22 PM
#48
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Originally posted by Fingers
So... because I didn't pull an adamlewis... I don't know what I'm talking about?
How about an analogy... say someone comes on here bragging about how funny it just was to run over a dog with their rx7... i reply with "you're a fucktard, and it's not funny. and is also very illegal"... he replies with "so have you tried it yourself? No? then shut up you don't know what you're talking about".
Fine I'll let you keep whatever dignity you have left over and just stop talking.
So... because I didn't pull an adamlewis... I don't know what I'm talking about?
How about an analogy... say someone comes on here bragging about how funny it just was to run over a dog with their rx7... i reply with "you're a fucktard, and it's not funny. and is also very illegal"... he replies with "so have you tried it yourself? No? then shut up you don't know what you're talking about".
Fine I'll let you keep whatever dignity you have left over and just stop talking.
Is this even serious?
09-03-03, 03:32 PM
#49
yo mista Adamlewis take a video camera along. Boost up to 19PSI. Do it for the length of one tape say an hour and a half and record it and have the laptop in the car. Lets see if you blow something up or not on the safe fuel system you have. I will bet you five dollars you will blow something up on the run or soon after.
Want to take me up on the offer? hahahahaha
Want to take me up on the offer? hahahahaha
09-03-03, 04:16 PM
#50
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Wait Wait, OK
-you said you didn't detonate
-then fingers asked how you know for sure
-then you said there was no AUDIBLE knock.. but you are also aware that NOT all knock is audible.
So are you still saying you know there was no knock or are you saying that its possible there was knock but you didn't hear it?
-you said you didn't detonate
-then fingers asked how you know for sure
-then you said there was no AUDIBLE knock.. but you are also aware that NOT all knock is audible.
So are you still saying you know there was no knock or are you saying that its possible there was knock but you didn't hear it?