random_idiot19

I'm having problems with my engine, currently have a 13b. When I bought my car 2 years ago it was used and apparently wasn't driven or even turned on for about a year and a half. So naturally the engine and everything else would suck ***. It works here and there but definitely lacking in power. Most likely it's got a lot of built up gunk inside the engine that needs to be cleaned out and I need to replace some other parts in the engine compartment anyway (spark plugs, electrical wires, ect). Well, here is the question, should I get it rebuilt or go for the 20b and how much would it cost for either? I'm sure that the 20b would be larger so some movement would have to occur in the engine compartment but considering I need most of that stuff replaced anyway it wouldn't be a hassle.

Since I live in the Rocklin/Roseville area of N. Cali I have very limited options on where I can go to get this done. There's a guy I know of in Yuba and he does RX's (all gens) and is a really good guy but last time I was there his shop was pretty full and would be some time to get my car in to get this handled (I do not doubt his work though, he definitely knows his stuff). So the only other place I can think of going is the Mazda dealership in Roseville *Shudder*. Over priced of course but they could get me in faster and they do good work. Time is of an essence to me because I know the car is just gonna die on me sometime.

So...any suggestions on what to do? I'm not a big car guy and haven't had much time to really work or learn anything about the car since I'm in the AF and currently deployed and still have some time before I get back (but yes, I'll have money to fix my car!!). So any info on this would be greatly appreciated!

~This has been a friendly message from your local Random Idiot~

spot_skater

1) Search.
2) Read the FAQ's and archives.

Bottom line, go 20b if you've got the cash, and the resources. Sounds like you wouldn't be doing the work yourself, so you'd be looking at spending probably upwards of 15k, but it may be more. A 13B Turbo is more than sufficient for most people.

James

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Get with boostedrex, he is stationed there at Beale, he can help you. What you need to understand that from a cost comparison standpoint, the 13b is FAR cheaper then the 20b conversion.

random_idiot19

boostedrex, that's Zack right? I've talked to him here and there, seen him up at the Yuba shop. He's got the Red Turbo and his wife has the Gen 3, if that's the guy I'm thinking. Since I'm still on deployment I can't call or anything. Just trying to get some info before I get back. I'll probably stick with the 13b cause it is cheaper. How much does a turbo cost to install and put everything you need? My car is bascially stock right now with no upgrades so I'll have to start from scratch.

fredster102

it would probably be easier to get a whole 13bt engine(turbo) then make yours turbo
http://www.aaroncake.net/RX%2D7/naturbo.htm ,read this if you wanna convert yours n/a

random_idiot19

Oh yeah, if you guys post any links in here I can't access web pages that are personal pages (like any geocities or things like that) or things with streaming video, just FYI. so I couldn't check out that thread. I'm currently searching around the forums to see if I can find anything else out about this so I won't bother too many people but if anyone is bored then feel free to drop a response, trust me, I won't complain

fredster102

well most people who want to a turbo engine just basically go with a turbo swap, a N/a turbo engine has been done but it requires a custom manifold and careful tuning , i dont know much on it though

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

All you really need to know is already in the FAQ (regarding turbo conversions).

For a 20B install, there is a 20B subforum to the Rotary Performance forum. Keep in mind that it's a $10K+ project.

got_boost

iTrader: (16)

Alamo Rotary 20B Conversion Price List
USED 3 ROTOR 20B ENGINE CORE
REBUILD 20B SHORT BLOCK
CNC MACHINE ROTORS (3)
MATCH THROTTLE BODY
CUSTOM MANIFOLD & ADAPTORS
ENGINE MANAGEMENT
FUEL INJECTORS
HIGH VOLUME FUEL PUMP
FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR
10MM SPARK PLUG WIRES
CUSTOM PULLEYS & BELTS
CUSTOM INTERCOOLER
HEAVY DUTY HIGH PERFORMANCE CLUTCH KIT
BILLET ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL
HEAVY DUTY ALUMINUM RADIATOR
MISC COOLING/BOOST HOSES & CLAMPS
OIL COOLER, MISC OIL LINES & FITTINGS
MISC OIL, FILTERS & GEAR LUBE
CUSTOM SUBFRAME
BATTERY DRY CELL
BATTERY INSTALLATION KIT
A/C RETROFIT PARTS
PARTS SUBTOTAL: $27010.00
LABOR 150 HOURS @ $60/HR 9000.00

PROJECT TOTAL: $36010.00 (Plus Tax)

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

would be at least $15k for me to do a 20B conversion and probably take close to a year to complete. you would be better off sticking with the 13B and either building a turbo motor or just rebuild what you got.

RETed

You need to walk before you can run...


-Ted

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

holy assrape!

they didn't even mention a turbo with that price but i hope they do provide some lube...i'm guessing they don't do many 20B's, looks like they pulled the figures outta their *** to me.

Evil Aviator

Welcome to reality. That is average pricing for a professional conversion in the US. I think that maybe you don't realize the costs involved with operating an auto shop, and/or the cost and complexity of a proper conversion that would result in a quality product reliable enough to avoid reworking the job or getting sued due to mechanical failure.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I think that price list is for an FD. Notice "custom subframe". Also since it lists "CNC machine rotors" there are some extras included as well.

adrock3217

Alamo Rotary 20B Conversion Price List
USED 3 ROTOR 20B ENGINE CORE - $4000
REBUILD 20B SHORT BLOCK - $3000
CNC MACHINE ROTORS (3) - No thanks
MATCH THROTTLE BODY - Included in labor, maybe $10 in carbide bits
CUSTOM MANIFOLD & ADAPTORS - No thanks
ENGINE MANAGEMENT - $1500
FUEL INJECTORS - $300
HIGH VOLUME FUEL PUMP - $400
FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR - $300
10MM SPARK PLUG WIRES - $90
CUSTOM PULLEYS & BELTS - No thanks
CUSTOM INTERCOOLER - $500 + $100 for pipes
HEAVY DUTY HIGH PERFORMANCE CLUTCH KIT - $600
BILLET ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL - $600
HEAVY DUTY ALUMINUM RADIATOR - $600
MISC COOLING/BOOST HOSES & CLAMPS - .....$30?
OIL COOLER, MISC OIL LINES & FITTINGS - $400
MISC OIL, FILTERS & GEAR LUBE - Err, $75?
CUSTOM SUBFRAME - No thanks
BATTERY DRY CELL - $200
BATTERY INSTALLATION KIT - $50
A/C RETROFIT PARTS - No thanks

My parts subtotal: $12155 + 9000 in labor = $21155

PARTS SUBTOTAL: $27010.00
LABOR 150 HOURS @ $60/HR 9000.00

PROJECT TOTAL: $36010.00 (Plus Tax)


So..You would save...like $15,000 just by saying no to CNC rotors, custom manifold, pulleys, AC, and subframe?

Rip-off!

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i think i know a ripoff when i see one.

average is probably your best point since very few people have the money to do 20Bs so few shops wind up doing the conversion so only people with too much money wind up paying a shop to do the conversion where others do it themselves.

many people make it sound overly complicated, of which it is not.

Evil Aviator

Yes, there are several other items on that list that are also optional. However, when dealing with a custom project like a 20B conversion, each customer will have his/her own opinion on what is and isn't worth the money. That is one of the main reasons why it is difficult to answer the question of how much a 20B conversion costs.

Well, you can just open up your own shop and undercut the competition and make mega bucks if you think that pricing is off. I have the feeling that if you did own your own shop, your pricing would be similar for the items on that list.

The people who do it themselves for less money tend to have ghetto conversions, and I have yet to see any 20B conversions performed by a novice in a home garage or driveway that even remotely compare to a PFS or Pettit conversion. Private individuals also tend to use what I call "Monster Garage Math"; $3,000 engine + $2,000 EMS + lots of "freebies" + completely ignoring costs of labor, materials, shop rent, equipment, fluids, screw-ups, etc. = $5,000 total cost! (Real cost is closer to $20,000 but that figure somehow never makes it to the wife or the public). Also, by doing it yourself you don't have to pay for environmental fees, taxes, bonding and insurance, employee benefits, advertising, and many other business expenses. Additionally, professional shops need to weigh the huge amount of time involved in the 20B conversion vs. the money they would make if they spent their time doing other work that is probably more profitable per hour.

It is much more difficult than it seems, but thanks to internet forums like this it is less complicated and less expensive than it was several years ago.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

what makes you think i don't already have my own shop? blah blah blah, ask my customer next week how his T62 FD turns out and how much i charged him.. i guess it depends on if you are more interested in the $100+/hr in labor or enjoying what you do and keep your costs reasonable.

NZ_87_TURBO

clearly there is a lot of custom fab work involed in a project like this with regards to custom radiators and intercoolers etc.

whats the point in making a short crank engine when you have to make a cutom inlet etc. apart from saving 1" of space in front of the block?
with this you need to by a shortened crank, source another centre plate get custom studs and dowels made up, get a custom made inlet etc etc, the list goes on.

all this for 1"? or is the standard 20B form flawed insome great way??

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the factory 20B is the best way to go IMO.

i just find $36k for a naturally aspirated 20B is rediculous when there is a fully custom dry sumped large framed turbo setup sitting at Racing Beat for a little more than that..

Evil Aviator

I would get banned if I fully answered that question, lol.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yeah, we all know you are perfect and never make mistakes.

boy, you would think the good guy/bad guy section would be filled with negative comments after 2 years of building engines and doing repairs for mostly forum members on this forum.

NZ_87_TURBO

you can get a 466hp 20BPP NA motor for NZ$20000 appox from KIWI RE. race proven.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

I actually had my engine built by Tito at alamo rotary. While he is a bit on the pricey side, he does excellent work. And yes, that price list is for an FD.