130 Amp Alternator Sweetness
 

I just took a 20 mile test drive in my 90 Vert. I have a Taurus two-speed fan using the low speed for cooling and the high speed for A/C. The total of the requirements for running the engine, a/c clutch, high-speed Taurus fan and the interior fan were just a little too much for the stock S5 alternator. Add in lights for a night drive and the S5 alternator just wasn't enough. Now what happens when I do the stereo with two amplifiers? No, something else needed to happen.

The FD alternator, easy fit that it is, is only 100 amps. That's nice, but only 20 amps of head room over stock didn't even really bring me back to stock levels when you account for the 25 amps added from the Taurus fan, let alone a couple of large amps.

Please note that for stock use, the S5 is just fine, it does not suck. The FD does not suck just a little less. What to do? I wondered how the lowly Taurus was able to run the high current draw of the fan and the obviously higher amperage draw of power seats, sunroofs, etc. How? With a factory 130 amp alternator, that's how. Aha! And Ford made a buttload of these things, so they would be cheap cheap cheap for the man who could adapt. This was just what I needed!

So last Saturday, I tripped out to the pick-n-pull and pulled an alternator from a 1996 Taurus 3.0 OHV. I got the alternator, the harness and the entire charging wire from the alternator to the fuse box.

$20-cool! While I was there I got a couple of MarkVIII fans-one for me and one for my Porsche buddy. $65 for an alternator and two Mark VII fans, that is my idea of a back to school sale!

The Taurus alternator mount is the opposite of the S5 mount- it looks just like the mounting point on the S5 engine. So I got it home and sketched out an adapter to the factory mounting point. I fabbed a mount with some adjustments so the pulley alignment could be just right, bought some Grade 8 3/8' bolts and presto! I have the Taurus alt mounted using the factory tension adjustment to boot!


A pulley change from serpentine to v pulley and then on to the wiring.

The Taurus alt uses a 3-wire system exactly like the S5: One wire to the main fuse, one wire to the charging light on the dash and one wire to the EGI fuse.

Piece of cake.

I wired the Taurus plug into the S5 harness, plugged it in, tensioned the belt fired it up and POW!!

Not really, the only thing that happened is 14.2 volts. at idle. With the lights, A/C on high inside, the Taurus fan on high, the headlights on and the brake lights lit, the idle volts are at about 13.6, 600 rpm. Anything above 1000 rpm and I get 14 volts.

Subjectively, the Taurus alternator doesn't pull down the engine nearly as hard as the S5 did when the A/C clutch kicked in and the High-speed fan came on at the same time. With the S5 alt, the engine would drop by 200 rmp, from 600 to 400 and the car would nearly die. The volts dropped quite a bit at the same time. If all this happened when you were starting up from a stop sign or stoplight, the car would stumble. My theory is that the S5 was at the top of it's output and maybe wasn't as efficient as the Taurus alternator is. The rpm drop is minimal and the stumble is gone.

I took some pictures to illustrate the mount, the adjustability of the mount for pulley alignment and of the general look of the alt on the car, but it is late and the pics need resized to post. I am too tired and the Cowboys play tomorrow, so off to bed for now. I will post some pics. I intend to take the alternator off, clean it up (man is it dirty!) and take some more pics.

nice.cant wait for the pics..

also a big cowboys fan btw.. cant wait for the game

I like where your head is at and interested to see the end result. However, even though this is not The Lounge you cannot dangle a fucking carrot like that and not have pics

Pics or it never happened
or
Pics or GTFO

There's gotta be a simplier option that this...

My Cressida uses a 130A alternator.
Others have mentioned that the Maxima uses a 130A alternator.
Some Hondas (Odyssey) use 130A alternators.

I'm sure one of these uses a proper "saddle mount" which should drop right in?
I'm suspect of USA made parts. :P


-Ted

yea so let us know!!

plz

i had minne altenator rebuilt and upgraded to 120 amps simple and local shop only charged 80 bucks

Anybody have a pic of the stock S5 alt mounting tabs. If you guys think a Honda one will work, im currently running a 160amp Jeep Wrangler alt on my CRX. It bolted on without any work, might be a viable option.

Heh, heh. I checked my pictures just to make sure it really did happen. It did.

It was a very late night for me. I was too happy not to post up, but too trashed to edit the photos for the forum.

Ted-
I agree, there may be an simpler way, but when you see the double saddle bracket made from 1" angle x 1/8" steel, you may agree that there is not a cheaper way when you consider the millions of inexpensive Taurus alternators out there.

Pics in the next post.

Double Saddle Mount Bracket
 

Made from 1" angle, 1/8" stock.

Double Saddle Mount Bracket-Adjustment Shims
 

This view of the Double Saddle Mount Bracket shows the space allowed for adjustment shims-hardened grade 8 3/8" washers.

By moving the shims one at a time from the front front to the back the alternator could be moved in +/- 3/16" increments for pulley alignment.

The same amount of space is allowed in the upper mount where the alternator mounts. Combined, there is about 3/4" adjustment in 3/16" increments. Simple effective. The pulleys are pretty much perfectly aligned.

Also note the upper saddle is extended forward to set the alternator forward, again to roughly position the alternator pulley over the waterpump pulley.

Belt Size
 

The new belt is only 1" longer than original.

jackhild's Ford Taurus 130 Amp Alternator S5 Vert.
 

Really not so complicated. If I were a machinist or had some access to a machine shop, the bracket would be easy and cheap to duplicate.

I really only spent about 30 minutes on the actual fab of the bracket, drilling the holes, bending the ears etc. and this for the first time done. I spent more time measuring, making notes, etc to design the double saddle mount than actually making it.

Could you estimate how much higher this alt sits compared to stock?
I'm curious about whether it would interfere with a strut tower brace.

I had a similiar project, I had a mazda alternator in my V8 car, I put a 130+ amp brand new alternator from a camaro in there, it was
a 20 minute swap, I got a wire harness from GM that has the resistor built in so the car does not overcharge or any of that stuff. I went with the newer style 4 wire alternator because I had read how good they are compared to one wire or 2 wire alternators, I cant seem to remember why but there was someone who had a website with incredible information on it that convinced me about it- but that link is on my work computer right now.

My guess as to why there was a mazda alternator on the car is either thats what was around, or they did not try to figure out how to wire a GM one on there.

The adaptor goes from a 4 wire to a 2 so you can either just cut the ends off and splice them to the factory wiring, or you can get the other end of the plug and wire that in, which is what I did.

Here is a picture of the wiring adaptor and alternator

http://robx-7.nopistons.com/d/2145-2/max+004.jpg

http://robx-7.nopistons.com/d/2133-2/max+005.jpg

here is the plug on the alternator

http://robx-7.nopistons.com/d/2136-2/max+001.jpg


here is the old alternator on the car, and yes the writing on the PS pulley is now gone- along with the PS

http://robx-7.nopistons.com/d/854-1/exaust+018.jpg

the only picture I have of it installed.

http://robx-7.nopistons.com/d/2205-1/rvsp+001.jpg

Size Matters-
 

Or so the wife sez :(

Pic of the S5 80 amp alternator sitting on top of the Taurus 130 amp alternator

I could have used a belt that was only 1/2" longer than stock, or even the stock belt could have been used, but I wanted the adjustment to be in the middle of the range. If you used a slightly shorter belt, the tensioner would be in the lower range and alt would be slightly lower. With the stock belt, the tensioner was at the BOTTOM of the slot.

Here is a pic with a 4' level across the strut towers covers. You look at it and determine. Let me know if another picture or measurement would help.

my main point was that I went from a mazda to a gm and it was a direct swap with no brackets needing to be made and basically plug and play, I now have a lifetime gurantee alternator that can dish out anything I throw at it. I also did not have to change out my belt

I also dont know about your area, but locally my alternator shops and smaller auto parts stores wont sell you a FD alternator without a core anymore. I ended up getting a brand new FD alternator for my vert from someplace online, its also lifetime gurantee and came tested at like 120amps or something.

That'll do, thanks.

So you put the GM alt on your rotary? Or you replaced the Mazda alternator on your GM V8 RX7 swap with a GM alt? :Wconfused I think I just got a little dizzy!:)

Nice vert Rob!

Rotary Engine 130 Amp Club
 

I pm'ed 4 different sellers in the FD section selling FD alternators. Only one replied and he told me that I should really just buy one at the parts store. I took that to mean that his alternator was not going to work.

I decided that I was not going to make a change of any kind for only 20 amps. Even if it 'tests at 120 amps' that doesn't upgrade the size and internals. I'm sure that most stated amperages are slightly conservative and testing would uncover that margin. Maybe if you tested your 130 amp GM it would test out at 150 or 160 amps. Interesting theory.

Anyway, with a rated 130 amp, I (and you as well) won't have any issues carrying any electrical load we throw at our cars.

We must be the charter members of the Rotary Engine 130 Amp Alternator Club!:icon_tup:

that month was an expensive month for alternators for me.

I put brand new FD alternator in my rotary vert and went from a rotary alternator in my v8 car to a new GM one- it gets me dizzy as well!

both alternators came with test results, the gm one was actually putting out 150+amps.

My Orielly's had a new alternator tester that should have been able to print out a graph of the output of the alternator. No one, including the manager, could remember their recent training on the machine and how to get to the graph. They put in the specific model of vehicle and it tests and confirms that it met the spec of 130 amps.

Basically, it passed.

Nice work!
I gotta agree that the fabrication is on the simple side.
Kudos to you.

One thing that still bothers me...
With the higher redline of the 13B, cause these domestic alternators take that kinda revs?
I guess if you can update this thread regularly?
I bet the Taurus motors can't rev past 6kRPM? :)


-Ted

The pulley you have on the Taurus alternator appears to be smaller than the one on the stock unit. Have you considered the fact that you're potentially going to be spinning the Taurus alternator faster than it was designed to go? Combine that with the fact that the redline on a Taurus is likely something pitiful like 5k RPM and you could end up with little bits of copper flying through your hood when the armature explodes.

LOL JINX! The exact same question at the exact same time.

I know someone who was running a GM powermaster alternator on his T78 powered vert and he obviously never burnt it up or blew chunks of it in his engine bay.

I dunno, I don't think it'll clear. It certainly won't clear mine and mine is high enough to interfere with the hood slightly.

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/attachment...1&d=1199131991

I applaude your efforts but wold be weary of others trying this. I think you got incredibly lucky when you built your bracket as 3/16 I don't consider to be fine enough adjustment to line up a pulley. I suppose some thinner SS washers could work. I'm also not giving up the adjustment method I created :D

I'd go to a parts store and see if they can x-reference a taurus alt with some other fords. You may find that it's on some higher winding engines. Even if it lasts a few months, it's still a nice cheap alternative. Honestly though, it's not like a delicate transmission or something where moving parts could be a problem. It's a few bearing that you need to be worried about. Possibly heat as well.

That's not going to tell you anything definitive. They can use the same alternator on a higher revving engine with a different diameter crank pulley to keep the alternator RPMs within spec.

You still risk an exploding armature due to higher centrifugal force.

Thanks Ted, I am a simple kinda guy.

Yes, that is a concern. In all my research, one of the key factors that came up is that larger diameter alternators generate larger centripetal forces. The generation Taurus that my fan comes from has a HUGE alternator. That's the one that I originally wanted to use. The size worried me about clearances. That combined with the rpm concerns lead me to this particular alternator. It is larger than the S5, but still pretty compact.

Taurus revs? I don't know. I have never driven one. I won't even rent one.

Nope, the pulleys are exactly the same size. It is the perspective of the same size pulley being on different size frame. Kinda like the short skinny guy in porn that looks like he has a large, well you know, a large alternator.

Personally, I think people worry about too many things. No one worried about the larger diameter on the FD because we know FDs are high rpm motors. I bet the rotational. I don't think in this case the difference is that large. The materials, bearings etc. are likely similar if not the same. This alternator is mildly larger in diameter, but is quite a bit deeper as well. Other similar amperage alts from Ford seemed to be optimized the other way, larger diameter and shallower bodies.

I am not completely blowing off the issue either. I have taken the car up to 6000 rpms gently, but I have not driven it hard. I will give it some time before I do.

That's a huge assumption that doesn't stand up to the physics of the situation. What you have just described is under driving the alternator. A pulley ration that will materially affect the alternator speed at high rpms will also turn the alt really slowl at low rpms. Now the alt won't charge well at idle. I don't think this is likely, so the scenario doesn't hold up.

And did you know that on Halloween the witches will come and eat your brains if you don't... oh, never mind.

My volts are just dandy, even under maximum load.

You know that I did actually measure the location and built the bracket so that it shouldn't need the adjustments. It fit just like I designed it. I don't consider that lucky. I also planned for adjustments, in case my execution of said plan was imperfect. I consider that prudent.
That was exactly my plan. If I needed it, I would use some thinner *shims* to fine tune the alignment. It remains to be seen if I need to do this. The pulley has a rough, milled surface in the pulley. I will watch this over the next few miles. If I see that one surface is wearing unevenly, then I can fine tune it. I fully expect to have to do this, but right now, revving the engine up to the 5000-6000 the belt looks to be as straight and stable as the other belts, so I am pretty close.

BTW, the maximum that I could be out of alignment with 3/16' adjustment would be half that amount, or 3/32". That is too much, but I assure you that I am already much closer than that.



Heat being a concern with all alternators, the main source of heat is NOT the heat from the surrounding engine bay, but from the function of the alternator. The closer an alternator operates to it's rated capacity, the less efficient it gets, hence the more heat it makes. I suspect that this alternator by operating far below it's maximum capacity is making less heat than the S5 alt makes.

I measured a 60+ amp output on my S5 alternator with everything running as detailed above. That's 75% of the rated capacity. That same 60 amp load is only 46% of the 130 amp capacity of the Taurus alternator. You have just learned one of the best reasons to upgrade an alternator on the FC. The large capacity alt is not working very hard to do it's job.

I am not concerned in the least about heat on this Taurus alternator.

wow .. +1.

Thank you for sharing.

I have a question about the pulley. Did you modify the stock one, or put an rx7 v pulley on there? Or did you just go around the junkyard looking for a v that fit the shaft?

Also are you willing to make + sell the adapters you made?

The pulley is from a SBC alternator. My bud at xxxxx'x Auto managed to 'find' it for me. Basically, he pulled it from a reman alt and put one from a core alt back on the reman. This was to help me with the wear pattern for belt alignment.

Make sell the adaptors? I dunno about that. I barely have time to do my own fun, let alone with someone elses. I hadn't though of this, but let me think about it.

ok. If you don't plan on selling it, could you at least share the specs so we may build (have someone build) our own?

Thanks
~Tweak

If it was the 3.0L or 3.2L SHO engine, they redline @ 7000RPM :icon_tup:

The thing to check if the alternator's durability is in question, is the diameter of crank pulley and alternator pulley's on the Taurus. This information, along with the redline can give you the maximum alternator RPMs.

Compare this to the pulleys and RPMs on the RX-7 and you will be able to see what you are working with :icon_tup:

Vince

The way I read it you just bent a bracket and started stacking washers. I had the same debate with someone who started stacking whell spacers until it fit. You see my concern. kudo's for actually using some measuring tools and empoying "higher" math


Well that's good


Thanks, already fully aware of source of killer heat on an alt. In my instance, I am overrunning a tested 110Amp FD alt with the fan, lights, heat, wipers and stereo going. So you see my concern when I say heat. I'm going to try to find a place that can rebuild my FD alt to 130-150+ amps. I admire you taking the time to do this, I wouldn't though. Just my $.02

looks alot like my alternator
Attachment 720696

That looks like a direct fit. Where did that come from and what is the rated amps please?

Oh, that is a common mistake- I frequently make the same mistake of confusing wheel adapters for Alternator mounts. :)






Hey, you brought up heat. Seems that it should not have even been worth discussing if you understood where the heat comes from. :scratch:

So, you have an inadequate alternator? Is it really or are you guessing? Do you know how many amps your alternator is producing when all that jazz is running? What I am asking is have you actually measured the output while the accessories are running? If you haven't you don't really know. If you don't know, then you may not need an upgrade. You should measure the amp draw then decide. You might be just fine.

If you are having voltage problems at idle but not down the road, rewinding will only hurt not help your situation. If you get your alt rewound, the output at low rpms will suffer.

I try to approach things systematically. I don't 'buy a cure' until I know there is a measurable problem. I also don't half do things. Thanks for the complements, and I really do appreciate your constructive criticism and analysis. That makes us all a little better and likely answers questions that other readers may have. It keeps us all sharp.

Thanks for your comments.

Nicely done. Give us the part info!

No no no, you're misunderstanding me. Someone didn't know how to measure something and he asked for a suggestion. Someone told him to keep stacking spacers on until they fit. His solution was to just add spacers becuase he didn't understand math






I'm saying I have a similar setup in my car. Last time I checked my alt was not keeping up under full load. I mentioned the heat becuase I feel that your setup may be running close to 85+% of rated capacity. Throw in higher revs and well, you know the rest

I was having voltage problems while running down the road. My alt was not suffiecient. I have also change a bunch of things so I am undecided if I'm going to get it rebuilt or not. i need to take the entire thing apart to coat the housing so while it's apart, why the hell not.

http://www.hitachi-hap.com/products/...ter/index.html

http://www.hitachi-hap.com/products/...Water/howa.jpg

You missed the part where I actually measured the output from the alternator. I know how much the load was on my alternator. I am currently only running 45% capacity on my new 130 amp alternator, I was running 75% capacity on my old S5 alternator.

You should test to determine how much your alternator needs to put out to run your car and accessories. I tested by inserting an ammeter between the alternator and the main fuse. This way, every amp of power produced was accurately measured. I tested 60 amps on my car.

Your S6 alternator is designed and rated for 100 amps. It may test at 110 amps, but it is still a 100 amp alternator. Ask it to put out 110 or even 100 amps for very long and it is toast. If it is unable to keep up going down the road, then the alternator may be burning out. Rewinding it will only increase the higher rpm output and will hurt the idle output. I am not making this up.

You are just teasing us!

That a Taurus fan on your 7 or a Mark VIII?

hehe.

this is the alternator i have, it is 170 amps

http://www.motorcityreman.com/9294tempo23l.html

...

yeah, thats the 2 speed taurus fan... with the headlights on low beam , the heater on, the radio blasting and the Taurus fan running on hi the battery would just run out until the headlights looked like candles... so I put the 3G alternator on and it fixed all my problems