**Need budget engine rebuild. What route should i go, what are your prices?**
02-26-13, 10:53 AM
#1
I'm looking to get a rebuild on my s4 13bturbo engine, I have two blocks to provide to make one good one out of.
I'm not rich so this will be a budget rebuild trying to get it done around $1000-1300
Car will be a daily driver, hoping to get somw years/miles out if it.
It will be a stock port build, using ra classic seals or something else similar that is strong that won't break if problems occur (I like peace of mind).
Car will be running a stock s5 turbo with a short term goal of 240-250whp with long a term goal of 320-350+ whp
Initially I'll be running a stock ecu/fuel system with a fcd, and possibly 720cc secondaries (for insurance that I don't run lean), so only 9psi or less (180-200whp).
Car has a full exhaust and I plan to get the Turbo waste gate ported.
My top choice(s) right now are :
1) Kevin landers -rotaryresurrection (built my last engine)
2) source/get rebuild parts myself and pay a rotary shop to build it for $700
3) search for more reputable people to build it via forum
Feel free to chime in with any advice or information on a builder, or even if you are a builder yourself.
I'm located near Richmond, Va so the closer you are the better.
Thanks.
Rotary >Pistons
I'm not rich so this will be a budget rebuild trying to get it done around $1000-1300
Car will be a daily driver, hoping to get somw years/miles out if it.
It will be a stock port build, using ra classic seals or something else similar that is strong that won't break if problems occur (I like peace of mind).
Car will be running a stock s5 turbo with a short term goal of 240-250whp with long a term goal of 320-350+ whp
Initially I'll be running a stock ecu/fuel system with a fcd, and possibly 720cc secondaries (for insurance that I don't run lean), so only 9psi or less (180-200whp).
Car has a full exhaust and I plan to get the Turbo waste gate ported.
My top choice(s) right now are :
1) Kevin landers -rotaryresurrection (built my last engine)
2) source/get rebuild parts myself and pay a rotary shop to build it for $700
3) search for more reputable people to build it via forum
Feel free to chime in with any advice or information on a builder, or even if you are a builder yourself.
I'm located near Richmond, Va so the closer you are the better.
Thanks.
Rotary >Pistons
02-26-13, 11:49 AM
#3
shipping is going to put you over your target price of even through the cheapest reputable builders.
that also doesn't include possible worn or damaged items in the engine you ship.
best is to wait until you have about $2k saved and then make a choice.
that also doesn't include possible worn or damaged items in the engine you ship.
best is to wait until you have about $2k saved and then make a choice.
02-26-13, 12:17 PM
#6
I'm not super far (6 hours?) so I could probably drop them off for less money in gas than it'd cost to ship them.
Ill figure something out, one block has high miles 160k supposedly, the other has 94k but likely has a blown coolant seal and was sitting awhile so who knows how much is good in that, hopefully at least half is salvageable.
Rotary >Pistons
Ill figure something out, one block has high miles 160k supposedly, the other has 94k but likely has a blown coolant seal and was sitting awhile so who knows how much is good in that, hopefully at least half is salvageable.
Rotary >Pistons
02-26-13, 12:21 PM
#7
160k you can almost gaurantee the housings have edge wear and he will not want to use those. the blown coolant seal engine if not abused should have some decent housings assuming the water didn't get under the chrome layer and rust it out. even if water sat in the engine unless it was loads and for many years enclosed it should be ok for the housings if not the rest of the engine. rust usually attacks the rotors first and then the housings in extreme situations.
dropping them off obviously would be your cheapest route.
dropping them off obviously would be your cheapest route.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-26-13 at 12:24 PM.
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02-26-13, 12:28 PM
#8
PM replied. But, in the interest of transparency and to satisfy the curiosity other readers no doubt have, here is my reply:
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection via PM
What do you suggest by "cut you a break"? My base price of 1300 has about $800 worth of seals and shop supplies and about $500 worth of labor built into it. The full job is about a 30-35 hour undertaking which puts me making around $10-12/hour for my highly specialized labor and knowledge. What do you suggest that I do to "cut you a break", work for less? I already have by far the lowest advertised pricing in north america (quite possibly the world) that I am aware of...what more can I do?
In terms of the RA seals, I will gladly built with any seals you desire to use. I will not however warranty them beyond startup, so they make whatever compression they make, and they last however long they last. You'd still get a warranty on other areas of the build such as the coolant system integrity and smoke/oil orings. You'll also have full pics of teardown and assembly and all parts used, so there will be no doubt what was done either way.
Now my basic price includes atkins apex seals which cost around $200, so what I would do is simply let you purchase your own seals and I would discount the total build by $200 since I am not supplying apex seals.
Since you're already going to sacrifice a compression warranty, if you're looking to go further budget, we could possibly reuse side seals or maybe even corner seals and get your price down a bit more that way. New side seals run $150 (at my wholesale cost, closer to $200 retail) and corner seals run $90 (at my wholesale cost, closer to $120 at retail). By reusing side seals and/or corner seals you will wind up with a bit more side seal clearance (and thus a bit less compression) than as if we'd replaced those parts and I had hand-fit new seals...but it's the first place I'd look to budget cut if you have to.
You mentioned you had two blocks so what we'd do is tear both blocks apart and then figure out the best parts to use in the build. Then what is left you could either take back with you and keep, or you could trade to me for some credit off your bill, which could also accomplish what you're asking to get the price down.
Sacrificing some seals that would go into your build or trading some parts you may have left over to me are the only ways to get my price down further. I already work too cheap as it is, and in fact some of my customers tell me this.
In terms of the RA seals, I will gladly built with any seals you desire to use. I will not however warranty them beyond startup, so they make whatever compression they make, and they last however long they last. You'd still get a warranty on other areas of the build such as the coolant system integrity and smoke/oil orings. You'll also have full pics of teardown and assembly and all parts used, so there will be no doubt what was done either way.
Now my basic price includes atkins apex seals which cost around $200, so what I would do is simply let you purchase your own seals and I would discount the total build by $200 since I am not supplying apex seals.
Since you're already going to sacrifice a compression warranty, if you're looking to go further budget, we could possibly reuse side seals or maybe even corner seals and get your price down a bit more that way. New side seals run $150 (at my wholesale cost, closer to $200 retail) and corner seals run $90 (at my wholesale cost, closer to $120 at retail). By reusing side seals and/or corner seals you will wind up with a bit more side seal clearance (and thus a bit less compression) than as if we'd replaced those parts and I had hand-fit new seals...but it's the first place I'd look to budget cut if you have to.
You mentioned you had two blocks so what we'd do is tear both blocks apart and then figure out the best parts to use in the build. Then what is left you could either take back with you and keep, or you could trade to me for some credit off your bill, which could also accomplish what you're asking to get the price down.
Sacrificing some seals that would go into your build or trading some parts you may have left over to me are the only ways to get my price down further. I already work too cheap as it is, and in fact some of my customers tell me this.
02-26-13, 12:41 PM
#12
1) I like to look at the parts as they come apart, to give me an idea what happened, and what if any other specific areas I need to look at closely.
2) People almost always either lose or damage some of the parts, seals, etc. that may need to be reused. And of course, I have a certain way I take things apart and keep pieces together, that makes it easier for me later. If someone else has taken it apart, they haven't done it my usual way, so it just creates a little extra work to sort through everything and identify what we have and what is missing, etc.
3) the components of the block are MUCH more susceptible to damage during handling and shipment individually than they are as a group inside an assembled block. Most people don't know how to handle, store, or package/ship these components safely, so that means even more extra work that I have to do. I have to look for damage due to handling and shipping to areas of the components that I would not normally have to worry or consider with if it were an original engine that I opened up myself. So maybe I have to sandroll nicks out of the edges of the rotor housings or file down the edges of the rotors due to handling. It all adds up, though.
02-26-13, 12:45 PM
#14
I've been trying to figure out what seals to go with for a while. *scratch*
I just want some insurance in case something ever does go wrong.
Rotary >Pistons
02-26-13, 12:49 PM
#15
What about goopy? Als are priced pretty high from what I read, and Mazda can break pretty easily under lean conditions.
I've been trying to figure out what seals to go with for a while. *scratch*
I just want some insurance in case something ever does go wrong.
Rotary >Pistons
I've been trying to figure out what seals to go with for a while. *scratch*
I just want some insurance in case something ever does go wrong.
Rotary >Pistons
The ALS are the one "unbreakable" seal on the market that I have heard the most good things about and I might consider building with and warrantying those. But I think they are going to be out of your price range. They retail for close to $500/set I believe and I wholesale them for $375/set for customers who are having me build their engine (I do not sell them "out the door").
Goopy seals are also pretty high dollar at 350/set.
02-26-13, 12:49 PM
#16
last time i had a block torn apart and delivered there were dozens of parts missing, rotors sitting against irons, scratched parts, half unusable.
of course not everyone is like this but if anyone does bring me an "engine in a box" you should be ready to have an even higher bill than bringing a complete short block.
his reply to my addendum parts list was "i thought the price you gave me would include everything". my reply was "i have to pay for parts, i do not give **** away".
of course not everyone is like this but if anyone does bring me an "engine in a box" you should be ready to have an even higher bill than bringing a complete short block.
his reply to my addendum parts list was "i thought the price you gave me would include everything". my reply was "i have to pay for parts, i do not give **** away".
02-26-13, 01:12 PM
#19
actually there was no box, i lied. he brought it all bouncing around in the back of a jeep.
it was also a complete long block to reassemble a car with that had a full page of dozens of missing parts that got lost after disassembly. i head banged over that one for a while, while i sifted through my bins to put together a full S5 turbo car again. the engine was also full of water and parked for many years, the engine was a 75% loss.
it was also a complete long block to reassemble a car with that had a full page of dozens of missing parts that got lost after disassembly. i head banged over that one for a while, while i sifted through my bins to put together a full S5 turbo car again. the engine was also full of water and parked for many years, the engine was a 75% loss.
02-26-13, 05:44 PM
#22
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Slightly off topic but since we have two builders in the thread what's the best way to store a complete block that's been pulled in order to preserve the engine for future use?
The last running engine I pulled for long term storage I fogged, drained the coolant and oil, covered all the external openings and put it on the shelf. Is there anything else the should be done at time of pickling and periodically while sitting?
The last running engine I pulled for long term storage I fogged, drained the coolant and oil, covered all the external openings and put it on the shelf. Is there anything else the should be done at time of pickling and periodically while sitting?
02-26-13, 05:58 PM
#23
that is basically all you need to do to store an engine, it's a good idea to periodically rotate the engine once a month.
i just drain the blocks of oil and coolant and add a few shots of MMO, leave the ports open, rotate it a few times and shelf it. but those are core engines i plan on tearing apart.
engines i built that sat near a year i just closed all the ports on and left the assembly lube to sit, never rotated them or did anything special but they also had no carbon to deal with. your aim is to prevent any oil in the rotor apex seal channels from drying out and sticking the apex seals, so make sure the internals are always wet.
i just drain the blocks of oil and coolant and add a few shots of MMO, leave the ports open, rotate it a few times and shelf it. but those are core engines i plan on tearing apart.
engines i built that sat near a year i just closed all the ports on and left the assembly lube to sit, never rotated them or did anything special but they also had no carbon to deal with. your aim is to prevent any oil in the rotor apex seal channels from drying out and sticking the apex seals, so make sure the internals are always wet.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 02-26-13 at 06:02 PM.
02-28-13, 05:01 PM
#25
Slightly off topic but since we have two builders in the thread what's the best way to store a complete block that's been pulled in order to preserve the engine for future use?
The last running engine I pulled for long term storage I fogged, drained the coolant and oil, covered all the external openings and put it on the shelf. Is there anything else the should be done at time of pickling and periodically while sitting?
The last running engine I pulled for long term storage I fogged, drained the coolant and oil, covered all the external openings and put it on the shelf. Is there anything else the should be done at time of pickling and periodically while sitting?