I am not a newbie and I have searched. . Just need some input from more experienced forum members in 20B-ology

Here is what im thinking so far:

-Would start with a T2(s4)
-20B motor
-Motor mounts
-Custom manifold made from 20b turbo manifold
-Single Turbo
-FMIC with custom piping
-Intake & Custom Ehxaust (Downpipe etc.)
-Fuel Pump, injectors (possibly a custom rail and regulator)
-Haltek EK6
-Aftermarket Radiator
-Aftermarket Clutch
-Plan on using tranny, driveshaft diff and axles from donor T2(If this is not a good Idea Ill take recomendtions).
-Suspension (Coilovers etc.)
-Plan on using flywheel from engine on donor T2.
-Brakes(dunno what donor car would be, will take recomendations).

Have I missed anything, besides ignition setup, of which I have seen almost as many variations as there are setups(still willing to take recomendations)? Anybody have any recomendations about the setup? Im shooting for roughly 500-600 RWHP. Car would be occasionally taken to Drag strip. Car would not be daily driven.

Again looking for a little guidance in planning project from the more knowlegable forum members in this area

 

Not sure what you mean by a custom manifold using the stock twin turbo 20B manifold...especially when you're going single. You will need to make a custom manifold, period. There's no way I know of to use the stock one except other than a template for the exhaust flange.

You're forgetting about the front sway bar. It will need attention as you cannot use it in the stock location.

ECU - I hate to get into this discussion but... I though for Haltech's you needed the newer version, or the E11? The EK6 won't run a 20B at all. There is also the Microtech, Wolf 3D, TEC 3, Motec, etc, etc.

Oil cooler - use stock one, or two stock coolers, or one big aftermarket one?

I was told that the 87-88 LSD's were much stronger than the 89-91's. The gearbox is a debate unto itself...

You'll need gauges...Boost controller...wastegate...bigger wheels if you have a large brake kit...as well as any hope of getting traction.

 

LOL, you will definitely need a completely upgraded fuel system, including bigger fuel lines.

You also forgot the wastegate, BOV, and electric fan(s). You also need to address the thermostat issue.

You can use a Racing Beat 3-rotor exhaust flange (also sold by Mazdatrix) to build your turbo manifold. I would just sell the stock turbo unit to one of the Petit Banzai owners, as it will be useless to you.

You are going to have a major problem with that much horsepower. While the TII drivetrain will probably last a while on a street car, I doubt that it will be able to handle that much torque at the drag strip, so a G-Force, Lenco, etc., transmission will probably be required. Also, as mentioned in the previous post, you will need huge tires to handle that kind of power, which also means flares or a body kit. I don't drag race, but I imagine that a whole bunch of expensive safety equipment is required for that power level, too.

You are looking at about $50,000 in mods for this setup. I recommend sticking with the stock turbos and stock TII drivetrain/brakes/suspension to start with. I wish I had gone this route, as I now find myself with a major transmission dilemma, and the current economy isn't helping any.

The E6K is perfectly capable of running a 3-rotor engine, and has run them for several years now. It just can't run a 3-rotor with split timing for emissions control. The E11 will be able to run rpm-based split timing, and has many other features which make it a better choice than the E6K. So far, the best EMS for a 3-rotor is the Motec M800 (even though it requies an ancient DOS laptop), but most people would have difficulty justifying the cost for a street / weekend warrior car.

 

I am using Haltech E6k it works amazing.

I would change you trany to the new style (93-95) I was tolled the tII can't hold the power. It will fly out. And you have to put in a lightweight flywheel and use the 20b counterweight.

 

Good question. I'm going to start with the stock oil cooler, which is actually very good. I'm hoping that my huge custom Griffin radiator, Spearco FMIC, S5 front end, and dual Spal 13" fans will help with the cooling. If not, then I plan on wedging dual Mocal oil coolers under the headlights.

 

The FD and TII transmission are basically the same thing. The only thing you will gain with an FD transmission in your TII is a headache.

I went with a special lightweight flywheel and custom-milled counterweight, but this is not required, and may actually hurt your performance on the drag strip. I would check with Mazda Competition to see what combinations will work with the 20B. Note that some transmissions work with the AT flex plate, so don't throw it away just yet.

 

When I said single turbo I was trefering to turbo and all things necessary for one to work I asking to get feedback on the not so obvious stuff such as the swaybar.

Also whats the thermostat issue ?

Why would I need a new tranny? If the T2 and FD tranny are pretty similar and there are 500-600RWHP Single turbo FD's why would the T2 tranny not be able to hold a 5-600 RWHP 20B?

Thanks for the feedback so far guys keep it coming.

And I dont think this is a 50k project

 

For the transmission, it's not the HP, it's the torque that destroys them. Think of it this way, HP is how fast you get somewhere...torque is how hard it hits. Similar to voltage and amperage...

I'm personally running dual FC oil coolers, one above the other in nearly the stock location. The more oil cooling the better, especially on a oil-only turbo.

The dual thermostat issue. There are a couple ways to address this. One, remove the entire front cover and use a 13B version. The major issue is that you have reduced water cooling capability due to the fact that it's meant for a 2-rotor. Two, you can do a custom piece for the dual thermostat housing as the hood will not shut with this thing in place, too tall. That's the only two ways I know of to handle that situation. Evil and I chose the second route.

You don't think this is a 50K project?...well then, good luck because neither did any of us at first (or maybe some did but didn't care). The only way it won't be is if you know how to weld, fabricate, and have the equipment to do it properly and on your own time.

The biggest issue with this conversion is that everyone doing it, is approaching the solutions to problems in different ways. I.e., there is hardly any single, mass-produced solution out there as these cars are all being built to the individuals specifications. On one side, that's really great as there is a lot of diversity and problem-solving happening... on the other. It really sucks because everyone is wasting a lot of time/money on solutions that may/may not work or are expensive to do one-offs.

The fact that you're asking about the swaybar, dual thermostat, etc, and other issues should (I hope) lead you to believe there are a lot more small engineering challenges that you will encounter during the conversion... and will add up to more than you budgeted for really quick.

 

i'm running an e6k and the stock oil cooler and both seem fine.
i used the stock water pump and tstats, although the fc or fd water pumps will bolt on the engine. there are several issues with that.
1. the jc, fc, and fd all use different belt systems, you cant mix and match, its either all or nothing
2. the jc thermostats hit the hood, and need to be modified to fit.
3. the fc and fd ones also hit the hood, they also move the alternator further back, which creates other problems
4. the jc pump impeller is bigger, but it uses a wierd belt, and unique water pump

my advise is to try and answer as many of these questions as you can before you start, you will have enough brain twisters along the way to keep you busy

mike

 

You will after you price transmissions.

 

As far as cost go, if you don't think you can get this conversion to cost under $50K US, send me the car here in NZ, I will charge you a fee of $10K NZ to have me organise the conversion using the best in the buisness in NZ to do this conversion with fully rebuilt ported engine, big single turbo etc, a g/box to handle it, along with appropriate ECU etc and send it back to you with change from $50K US (NZ$100000)!

hell, I can probably throw in some wheels and suspesnion to suit.

Engine supply and rebuild NZ$10K max
Turbo, manifold, wastegate (TIAL & Garrett GT4245) NZ$6500 max
ECU, NZ$3500 max
Clutch / G Box $8500 max
Intercooler with pipe work (bar and plate) NZ$1700
Fuel system NZ$3000 max
Aluminium radiator NZ$800 max
Suspension to help get power to the ground (adjustable Koni's or Tein) NZ$4500 max
18x8 and 18x10" wheels with tyres approx $5000 max
Labour for fitting etc NZ$5000max
extra for other odds and ends (ignition bits and peices fuel fittings etc) $5000 max

total
NZ$53500
+ freight to and from US NZ$10000MAX
my fee NZ$10000

grand total NZ$73500 (US$36700)

seriously, thats a guide (prices are absolute max), but I am sure it wouldn't even cost that to do this consversion in NZ. hell send the car to NZ and i wouldn't even charge you the $10K
My brothers boss has done the FD 20B conversion,drives well, 540HP ATW @ 13psi , and I know he is far from having money coming out his ears so it sure as hell didn't cost him anywhere near this amount. Sure no fancy g/box or fancy wheels (has 18x9" Momo's) but it is done well.

I am not debating what it costs to do this in the US, but is far cheaper in NZ as over hear we don't escilate parts prices just because there are silly people prepared to pay the money and we only charge NZ$50 (US$25) an hour for labour as apposed to your US$100 (NZ$200)+ costs an hour.

just food for thought, remember, NZ has some of the best engineers in the buisness, Peter Farell, Steve and Rod Millen and many more all come from New Zealand, oh, and the head Mech for McLaren is also from NZ.

 

You guys need to be closer If only it were that easy...

 

yeah, would be nice to be closer then it would be cheaper to come over and check out all the cool cars in the US, would be nice to have the ecconomy thats in the US also.
Its cheaper in NZ for this sort of stuff (labour intensive work especialy) than in the US, but the money isn't around in NZ like it is over there which is a pitty.

 

Not 100% true. Right now, I'm running a S5 water pump and housing with all S5 pulleys on my JC front cover. The thermostat does not hit the hood, but it does come close. I decided to do this since I have a Meziere electric pump I'm going to be using here shortly, but I haven't had the patience to make an alternator bracket.

 

Yeah, a $1500 (if that) T-56, a $300 adapter plate and a $300 custom driveshaft = $50,000

 

yeah but does yours run hot?

mike

 

Well obviously a ghetto-built 20B car with junkyard parts would cost less, and the price will also be reduced for those with a machine shop or who have access to cheap labor. However, if you add up everything he listed, as well as the components that I added, you will find that my cost estimate is fairly accurate. If you can build such a car for $1,500, then more power to you.

Every adapter plate that I have come across so far requires the RX-4 bellhousing and top-mount starter. Did you find one that will definitely work with the starter in the stock position? BTW, I have been checking out the stock 20B manifold for clearance just in case, LOL.

 

I wasn't saying that you could build the whole car for $1500, that is down right impossible. With my car, I have pretty much spared no expense (except reusing the E6k that I already had), and I don't plan on cutting corners now.

The adapter plate, as I stated in the other thread, was designed for an s5 or s4 rear housing, so it will work without the top mount starter and all of that jaz. just needs a clutch disc with GM splines on it.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone that pays 50k to have an upgraded transmission installed... I mean, you can buy the HKS Dogmission for around 9k, a Kaaz and supporting equipment for around (probably less) $2000... A driveshaft should not cost more than 1k... so, for top of the line, drop in items... you're looking at 12k, not 50k.

So far, I've spent int he neighborhood of $11,000-13,000 on my conversion. When I get my GT42 ($1800) and my wastegate ($520), I'll need to pick up the T-56 tranny (not more than $1500), adapter plate (as quoted, most likely $300) and a driveshaft which can be made locally for less than $300. I already have a Kaaz that I traded some extra pars and junk for... traded a blown motor for the single turbo manifold as well... so, when all is said and done, I'll be looking at about $16,500 for a single turbo, upgraded tranny, running 20B FC. I still need safety equipment though... a couple of good seats and harnesses, roll cage, suspension and brakes are all yet to come... Since I'm not going to be road racing this car... I think I'll just go with some ground control coilovers with Koni's... probably pick up some Recaro non adjustable racing seats (can't remember their model) and there is a shop in town putting a certified 9 second cage in my car...

I should be under $20,000 for a FULLY BUILT and ready to roll 20B FC...

 

Just to clarify...we are talking about the whole project costing $50k... not just the tranny itself.

Hats off to you on your budget conversion but it is hard to judge like-to-like for conversions without knowing all the specific items that were purchased, work that went into it, etc, for others to compare costs. So while you may be able to attain a budget less than $20k, that's not necessarily equal to what other people have done with their projects. It'll be fun to compare ours at the next MRR regardless

I can't remember..did you port your motor, put in new seals, etc?

 

I know. I was just teasing you because you didn't realize that my $50K quote was for the entire 600hp drag car project, not the transmisison. However, I have found a really nice 450-600 lb-ft transmission for $20K if you are interested, LOL.
http://www.hewland-engineering.co.uk...ange/igt-c.htm

Who sells a T-56 for $1,500? The normal pricing I have found is around $2,500-2,900 for new 450 lb-ft models, and $2,100-2,400 for remans.

BTW, I think that the T-56 would have a difficult time withstanding 600hp drag launches, especially with a 20B which is going to have a lot more torque than a 13B of the same horsepower. The G-Force and Lencos would be a better choice IMO, and yes, they sell for $5-7K new.
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/
http://www.lencoracing.com/

 

ah, my bad. I just went back and read it and I misunderstood... oops

Anyhow, there is a place here in town that sells used T-56s all day long for $1200. And if you don't think that tranny can take the torque, you need to talk to Jimlab. He's done MASSIVE research on transmissions and everything for his frankenstein project. If you look through the annals of the 20b forum, you're sure to find him correcting me on a similar statement I made.

As far as going with one of those dog boxes, I'm not sure that is the best choice for my project... but it may be for someone else. I need something that is completely streetable because this is going to be my daily driver (in the summer) and I don't want to have to match revs and double clutch down ever time I need to slow down... though, I suppose I could get used to it... And of course, there is the fact that you could just slam it into the gear you need and it would do fine

I'm not about cutting corners, but if I can find a transmission solution that will keep my car statisfied for 1/3 the price of a specialty tranny, I'm definitely going to give it a try... who knows, I may end up with a Jerico or a Gforce in there (though I've heard the Gforce is NOT a good street tranny... but that's just hearsay).

 

Thanks for imputs guys, Currently im scouting around for a T2 with a blown motor. I think im gonna start with the t2 tranny and see where that gets me.

 

TII transmission will be fine as long as you aren't going to make huge power. But, from reading your post, you seem to be going for some good gains with the large single turbo conversion and all. This leads me to believe you are going to have at LEAST 500rwhp/500ft-lbs from your 20B. The TII transmission can handle this power... but maybe not for too long (1-2 summers?).