Auto Illusions

I am getting near ready to send out my 20B which is getting fitted into 93 cym with only 19K miles on it. I have officially joined the "I F..ked up a perfectly good car club" This project is for our shop to be used as a demo car and we pretty much are taking it to the limit. Since our shop does not do engine building i am looking for a respectable place to do the engine build. We will be doing all the fitting and fabricating but will also be in need of a good tuner for the Microtech ltx-12. As a shop building a wild ride like this, we have gotten a little help on parts and will be hoping for some mag. coverage and need silly HP figures to be impressive. The car is mainly a show car but must be driven on the street and i am trying to screw as close to 900 HP out of it as i can. I would like to see over 750RWHP. Any suggestions as to if this would be a realistic goal and who would you suggest i have do the engine work and tunning? I am having an unbelievably hard time finding someone interested in taking on the engine build project.
Also i am trying to decide on a turbo setup to achieve my goals. I am considering twins but would rather stay single (ball bearing a must)

So far we have the following parts for the car to start with - all opinions would be welcome!

aeromotive 11104 monster fuel pump
aeromotive 16302 fuel pump controller
-12 feed to pump, -10 fuel line to front, -8 return line aeromotive 13110 fuel pressure regulator
Microtech LTX-12 with dataloging and wide band O2 option
Microtech Wide band O2 with lcd display for tuning
2 x msd dis4 digital ignition boxes
6 x msd hvc-2 coils
msd 31239 plug wires
Apexi super avc type r boost controller
mazda speed motor mounts
petit sub frame and diff mounts
RP chromoly axles
Kazz diff
Petit 8 lb fly wheel
Brembo 14" front and 12.9" rear brake kit
JIC Magic FLTA2 coil overs
Petit big front sway bar
Petit sub frame
Petit chromoly trailing links
Petit rear toe bars
GFG 19" 3-piece wheels
Re sleek light kit
Re AD-9 Hood
Re Gt 3 carbon wing
Feed front bumper
Feed carbon side skirts
Custom made alum. fuel tank (allows dual mufflers)
All analog carbon Autometer gauges (replaces all stock)
Full diamond audio sound system (2-10" subs / 3 amps)
99 tail lights conversion
RP stainless door sills
Momo Millenium steering wheel & shift **** & boot
Mazda speed short shifter

3Rotor

Talk to Rob at Pineapple Racing.
www.pineappleracing.com

MeLoco

At the power levels you are talking about you will need alot of engine work, it will want to flex so if it were me get it dowelled and if you can get it girdelled, alot of people on here know there stuff and some think they do so take everything with a grain of salt there are very few people truly running 900hp20B's and the ones that are are not going to necessarliy say how they got it to stay together, It's not impossible what you want to do but it will be very hard to make it reliable, again these motors at those levels want to flex, I would contact Rob as stated above to help you with the engine work at least he may get you going in the right direction. As far as tuning goes. I know Steve over at A-spec tuning(630-543-8890) has good ltx-12 experience. They are building 3 20b's over there right now and Sean could certainly set you up with the right turbo setup.

Evil Aviator

This may give you some basic ideas:
http://www.evil7.com/

felix_is_alive

you should check out rolando lopez from central florida turbo there is no better man with microtech tuneing...he`s the best there is ....even recomended by microtech .....321-235-9959.....tell them mike from curacao send you he`ll be more than happy to help

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

I would also recommend Pineapple. Rob built my 20b, though I don't know if it will run yet and also a 13bt that is in my vert. Very nice, fair pricing, knows his shiznit and won't hesitate to share it with you, and then some, and then some more....he loves to talk.
A good way to eliminate the flex of high hp 20b's is to go dry sump and replace the pan with a thick billet alum plate. Rob told me this is far better than any extra dowelling could do. It's not cheap but takin' it to the limit means an open wallet, right.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Not that I want to stir up this huge debate again but going with a TEC 3 would eliminate having to use the following unless you like having a bunch of extra gadgets your trying to sell of course:

aeromotive 16302 fuel pump controller
Microtech LTX-12 with dataloging and wide band O2 option
Microtech Wide band O2 with lcd display for tuning
2 x msd dis4 digital ignition boxes
6 x msd hvc-2 coils
Apexi super avc type r boost controller

You may want to also reference this page:
http://www.4rotor.com/
and use their engine builder -> http://www.cityperformancecentre.com/

Evil Aviator

LOL, you seem to have a good handle on why certain components are on show cars. Since the LTX-12 comes with a coil pack, just like the TEC3, I would assume that the MSD components are there to sell. I would imagine that the other whiz-boxes are on there because of the same reason.

BTW, does the TEC3 now have a dedicated output for fuel pump voltage regulation, or are you assuming the use of a GPO for that function?

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

If you refering to Kiwi-RE they do not have the greatest reputation on that side of the world ask around and you will see, it's a shame because everybody keeps throwing up links to pics of there work.

As far as the TEC issue stay with the microtech.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Well, that was my intial assumption was a business was trying to sell stuff whether or not it was necessary

I'll ask the fuel pump question of my installer and get back to you. I know on my TEC 1 there is a dedicated fuel pump output, not a GPO; and I made the assumption that the 3 being much newer and more sophisticated/better, it would at the minimum have the same thing. I'll post a pic of mine for reference.

I'm not by any means promoting those people, just referencing their link. I've heard nothing about them good or bad.

Since your full of info and we're all curious, who do you recommend Zero? (don't be angry, just asking)

Again...and I tried to make this obviously clear... not debating which computer to use, just saying there is an alternative that would help save costs and consolidate equipment. You can also use a Haltech E-11 as well but for the coil issue.

Evil Aviator

OK, I think that's the fuel pump relay output, which is pretty much a standard feature of any EMS. However, if your installer knows about a voltage regulation function for powering the pump, please share it with us.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the haltechs all ground a relay, are you asking weather the ecu knows/regulates the fuel pump voltage?

mike

DMRH

In reference to that. Ezio at CITY PERFORMANCE doesn't even build rotary engines, he gets his old partner from KIWI-RE to build them & ship across.

Whatever personal issue one may have with Alec from Kiwi-RE. It may be due to his association with a known crook (3rotor.CON). That aside, he is possibly the best engine builder next to Rick Engman (Downing/Atlanta) in the world. Many from over the planet have used his services & reap the rewards.

Ezio at City performance would be one of the best fabricators around & easily the best rotary-Motec Guru on the planet in my opinion.

Well worth considering.

Evil Aviator

I'm basically asking why he originally stated that the TEC3 would eliminate the need for the Aeromotive 16302 fuel pump controller.

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

I give Evil...what exactly does the Aeromotive controller do differently than any EMS fuel pump output? I made the assumption that the function was the same. After reading on the Aeromotive site obviously I was in error. Will ask that question this morning "if your installer knows about a voltage regulation function for powering the pump, please share it with us"

*happily admitting I'm wrong*

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

hmm that thing is kinda neat, you could run a returnless car, or map it with fuel pressure. or like a cis system. i question the "need" for such a thing though

mike

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

oops i make mistakes too =)

Evil Aviator

A typical EMS output is an on/off function for a fuel pump relay. The pump is usually turned on for initial pressurization for engine start, and turned off if the engine stops running or fails to start within a certain amount of time or revolutions.

The Aeromotive controller is a bit more complicated:
http://216.242.145.16/products/product.phtml?p=31

I assume it's to keep the high-output pump from burning up under extended use on a street car, where the controller lowers the voltage during lower output requirements like cruise and idle. However, since we are on the subject of ignorance, I too could be totally wrong on this one, as I have never used one of these things or even seen one on a car.

In any event, it would be good to put on a show car because it is something else to sell.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

lol, mines bad at that. its quieter than stock and had like 6 aftermarket parts on it, oh well

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

I was questioning it's use as well for the same basic reason of why have it in the first place if your EMS runs the pump just fine on it's own? Although that unit is much more finite in it's control of the voltage under throttle load...

just have never heard of such a thing being used on a street car before and it sounded like an unncessary redundancy. If it's actually useful/effective I'd be interested in that for mine.

Auto Illusions

Thanks for all the advice. I already contacted city performance and got a quote of 90K american. Wow! I understand the whole quality thing and speed cost money but dont quite see the value in that. Pineapple i spoke with a little while ago and they got back with me about 2 weeks ago. Even with out an estimate or talking price, they said they dont want the job or any thing shooting for that much HP. I guess they dont need the money! I think i have decided on Marcos Acosta. I like his setup he is running on his rx-8. I met him this past week at sema and talked with him for a while. I believe he knows his shiznit as well and i trust his ability to build 3 rotors!
As for the other bells and whistles, yes some of it is for show, the fuel system was layed out by aeromotive, and msd also designed the ignition system. I dont believe there is any way to overkill an ignition system. It cant hurt to make sure the mixture is ignited when your throwing that much fuel in on a forced induction engine.

As for the fuel pump controller conversation, I am very interested in this. I am worried that as fast as these cars can come into full boost asking for full fuel, that the fuel pump may need more time to speed up! I have been told i could be playing a little dangerously!

Auto Illusions

I also decided to run an innovative 80MM dual bearing turbo. Marcos is using this setup on his car and said he could get full boost at 2500 RPM. I believe he is making 850 HP. I am not sure if that is a wheel rating or calculated for a crank HP figure!

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

The point of having the fuel pump controller is not so that it will have enough time to catch up... it's so that very high flow pumps designed for big HP motors won't run at full flow under minimal load and thus saving the life span of the pump. Fuel pressure regulator and fuel line sizing is what you should be concerned with for proper fuel flow. Also make sure you push the fuel and don't pull it (put the fuel pump in or near the fuel tank as possible).

For the turbo issue, not to say Marcos is wrong, however, you can get full boost on a variety of turbos if you play with the A/R of the turbine and put a small enough one in there. Unfortunately, too small and you'll limit top end air flow of the compressor and risk cavitation or boost spike.

Evil Aviator

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=163679

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Spoke with my shop buddy today about the fuel issue. Evil is right about the ems issue in that the fuel pump lead is a B+ or a B- on/off to a relay only, no voltage regulation.

What we still don't understand from quickly talking about the Aero unit, is again; why would you need that when fuel pumps have a built in return so that if you dead-end them, they'll just dump back into the tank anyhow... Plus, the FPR is what regulates flow and pressure, so the more you pull through the fuel injectors, the more the pump will correspondingly (sp?) push.

The other issue is that V=IR, assuming R is constant from the wiring, if V goes down, then "I" should go down linearly as well which is a good thing due to less heat, less draw on the alt. hmmmmm.

Next question is what is the cost of one of those units? Are they cost effective?

The only thing Auto Ill is missing now is a chromed roll cage for pimp action