we live in the hills but, i wasn't driving fast, i was busy trying not to get pulled over and watching the temp gauge. it probably will be noticable when driven hard, but it might not be any worse than noticable? we'll see, i guess

mike

 

What, to make a header?

If you feel that making a header is that difficult (heck just take a 13B header and add a tube...) then fabricating engine mounts would be far out of your league.

 

yes, but how much hp would a stock 20b make with out the turbos? it runs at 7.5-8.5 psi of boost and makes 300hp stock. to make 300hp na you would have to at least port it, and putting high compression rotors in would be good too.
and yes, fabricating engine mounts IS way out of my league, that would involve measurement.

mike

 

If you really believe that, then go ahead and build one and show everyone here who has a 20B how easy it is, and how much better it is than a turbocharged engine.

LOL, me too.

"The problem with numbers is that there are too many of them" - Butthead

 

Check out the aviation lists - they install 13BT and 20Bs with stock porting and non turbo (basically just a rebuild for safety's sake but no porting) and get surprising HP levels from them. The turbos on the 20B are really for low-end torque, and at the top end the boost they run is mostly enough to compensate for the high exhaust backpressure caused by the stock turbos.

Fabricating isn't hard... measure once cut twice, or something like that... (Basically I'm evil with air tools and my trusty MIG)

 

I find making engine mounts (yes, i've done it before) very easy. I haven't made my own header yet, I think I will be able to without too much trouble, but it will be much harder than making engine mounts.

 

oh the little things one learns from reading these threads.

 

Do you have a link for those aviation lists?

I would find anything much over 240hp "surprising" for an aviation NA 20B with an otherwise stock block. Aviation engines are built and tuned to run differently than automotive engines.

I find that statement about the stock turbos difficult to believe since Pettit is getting 550hp out of them. They sure are small, though.

 

PEttit gets 550 out of them by putting TII or H16? compressors on them..


-Zach

 

Quick question, who makes an intake for a n/a 20B?

Oh, no one? Ever priced a custom one?

Thank you, come again.

 

Well you could always pick up a haltech and run that.. so it is only MAX ~$1K...


Or you could buy 20B intake flanges from mazdatrix.. and buy some IDA style flanges and make one pretty easy.. maybe cost $100 to get welded up at a shop. and $200 in material..

I think you would be much better off going the haltech route.. you would need like 2 48 IDA's probably.. and those alone would cost as much as a haltech..


-Zach

 

Max $1000? The E6K is the only ECU Haltech make that could come close to running a 20B and they retail for more than $1000USD!

And last time I checked, Haltech ECUs didnt come with intake manfiolds or throttle bodies.

You need 2 of everything and then chop it up and hope you get it right.

Custom = $$$$

 

um, well, maybe i just get good deals then..

You can order one from AUS, and get it here for ~1K..


And the 20B usually comes with an intake on it.. including a TB.. so what probably wouldn't be a problem.


I don't understand your you need to of everything comment? where did that come from?


-Zach

 

20B costs:
20B core ~2K
Rebuild ~3K /w streetport
TII Flywheel 100? used?
20B header ~300 from RPM in AUS
Custom Midpipe ~100
Custom engine mounts ~300
3x1680 injectors ~180
Total: 5980

13BT costs
13BT core ~900
rebuild ~2K with streetport
GSL-SE oilpan & cover ~300? used?
Upgraded turbo ~550
NPR intercooler ~200
Intercooler piping ~200 /w couplers
Custom Downpipe ~100
2x1680 injectors ~120
Turbo oil/coolant lines ~100
BOV Type-S ~200
Boost controller ~50
Custom elbow ~300
Total:5020


Stuff both would need
Haltech ~1K
custom drivesaft ~100
ACT Clutch+pp ~600
TII Tranny ~150?
Custom Radiator ~400
K&N filter ~30
Custom secondary fuel rail ~500
Fuelpump ~275
SX FPR ~145
Total: 3200


So a 20B swap would cost you ~$9180

And a 13BT swap would cost you ~$8220


So for an extra ~$1K you could probably go with a NA 20B.


Both setups should make close to 300-350hp


So it looks like the 20B cost more but might be more easy..

The 20B cost ~1K more but should be more reliable. but also be heavyer. it might also need a custom oilpan & sump. but i am unsure.


-Zach

EDIT: fixed some prices..

 

Coils and plug wires?
Custom thermostat housing (20B)?
Radiator fan (or stock with custom brackets and hardware)?
Radiator hoses?
Probably need a custom DP for the 20B?
& more that I missed...

I think that you could do it for close to $10K, assuming you are doing the majority of fab work. If you have to farm out the fab, double the price and quadruple the lead time. It would seem to be worth it to keep the 20B in the REW form and run non-seq with the Haltech. More expense yes, but the payoff would be worth it.

 

Well, either way you would need coils then. Probably use TII coils.

You would probably want to use the TII water housing & pump..

Fan i included in the price of the custom radiator.

No DP.. because it is NA. I included the header & a custom mid pipe..


-Zach

 

Are you thinking that you would be doing all the fab work at that price? Or is this farmed out?

 

Actually I have a 13BT in my car.. i was just trying to give some people on idea of cost & what would be needed..

-Zach

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/ACRE.html

Place to start. I can't find the link now but I recall them saying 200hp from stock port 13BT, 300 or so HP from stock port 20B, once turbos are removed.

 

Do you have any other links? The only good link I found there was the one below, which estimates an NA 20B at 240-300hp, which sounds about right for the range from a stock block to a ported engine. Remember, nobody is going to use a PP on an airplane, so don't expect to see big numbers.
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/faq.html

Stock compressors running parallel at 1bar boost, street porting, blueprinting, FMIC, etc. Read all about it:
http://www.pettitracing.com/sections/Banzai.html

I think that the stock intake would work fine for a budget NA EFI setup. However, most people think of carburetors when they think of an NA, so this is probably where the misunderstanding is occuring. Also, it could be in reference to the 13G-type throttle body setup used in racing. Mazda Comp sold the 450-475hp NA 3-rotor race engines for about $42,000 USD back in the late 80's, so I hope that people don't think that they can just JB Weld a 1Gen carb onto a 20B block and make a lot of power.

The 2 of everything comment is in reference to obtaining 2 13B components, cutting off part of each, and then welding them together for a 3-rotor application. This is what had to be done for my 20B exhaust flange because Racing Beat did not offer one at that time.

 

Just about any standalone ECU on the market will run a 20B as a 6-cylinder. Yes, as of this date (things change quickly, LOL), the E6K is a good deal at just over $1000 USD.
http://66.216.67.51/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=208&1=297&2=-1

Yes, you are right, quality custom components are a lot more expensive than these guys realize. They will figure that out in due time.

Ooo, ooo, I know!

Injection Perfection
I don't know the price, but it sure is purdy.

http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/

Mazda Motorsports
I think that most of the ZR03-13-xxx parts are out of production now, though.
This looks like a 13G throttle body:

 

wow, that sure be purdy

 

evil - true the K can be had for around $1000USD, but that will soon change

And yes that throttle COULD be used for a n/a 20B, but its made for Porsches and would require a custom lower manifold or spacer. Not cheap

 

I think the reason you guys think this is so expensive is because you are not doing any of the work yourselfs..


I have about $8K into my car including the car. Obviously on something i got a really good deal that most people couldn't. but for custom farb work i have only spent $170 so far...


here are the specs on my car:

84 GSL-SE
13BT 0 mile /w streetport
ACT pressure plate & clutch
Series 6 UIM & TD
Greddy Elbow
Greddy Type-S BOV
T04E turbo
SFP Custom manifold
Full exhaust (Will need to be redone)
SX FPR
Bosch fuel pump from 911
NPR Intercooler
Griffen Radiator
Some electric fan (probably switch to blackmagic)
TII Tranny
Custom driveshaft
Lots of gauges
Haltech E6K

And a pic for you:
http://z.gmk2.com/pics/rx7/DSCF0003.JPG


So i do believe i know how much this will cost


-Zach

 

Oh, and i also know how much kurgan has into his 20B swap as i have been helping him..


-Zach