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Dumb thing I did prior to mating the engine to the tranny: I over-lubed the pilot bearing. I believew this created an air tight seal. I had it all aligned with two long bolts, upper right and lower left, and the gap was equal top, bottom, left and right. When I pushed, it actual pushed back. (Or it seemed so.)
Eventually I did pull it together by alternating tightening the two long bolts until I could get the correct bolts started.
Thanks Tim, yet another claim of air pressure being an issue.
I installed the new bearing and seal last night using the Mazdatrix install tool. I'm really glad I spent the extra $ on it.. There's a significant difference in bore depth as to where the new bearing and seal sit. It also eliminated any doubt that I was damaging the lip of the bearing or seal from a socket slipping around.
Previously I used a socket and inadvertently set the bearing pretty deep in the bore. With the tool you can only tap it in so far until the tool bottoms out. Tapping in the bearing then the seal resulted in a final seal depth that's fairly flush with the end of the eccentric shaft bore. It "looks" proper.
Since the install tool is nice rigid metal and not flimsy plastic I got a nice feel for the resulting pressure behind the seal. WITHOUT any moly lube yet installed in the bore I had huge air pressure... I had to burp the seal using a little lateral pressure on the tool to allow the air to escape. I can only imagine once things are lubed a bit the seal will be even stronger.
I'm hoping with the seal positioned at the end of the bore I'll be able to more easily burp the trapped air out when wiggling the tranny into place.
Ncross: I'll be going the bolt route this time as suggested to pull things together. It seems like it did the trick for you and most of the guys that had this issue. Currently I'm using decapitated bolts threaded in as helpers to help align things, but they aren't long enough to extend thru the bellhousing and let me spin a nut on.. I guess I'll do the same thing with longer bolts and proper nuts to pull everything together. Once together I can replace the assist nuts and bolts with the stock hardware.
Remember that there's a threaded stud at the passenger side top of the engine which also attaches the rear lifting lug on the engine - that's your best guide for making sure they're both lined up once you get the input shaft into the clutch disk. That stud is pretty long and ensures that 12 O'clock on the tranny is mated to 12 O'clock on the engine.
As mentioned above, I found that I could get it close so I'd have about an inch and a half on all sides, top and bottom evenly, but could not get the engine to slide back far enough to get even ONE bolt in place to pull it together. I could see it was all aligned, but now I'm guessing the new needle bearing and grease seal were likely providing the air cushion keeping it from mating. No real way around that, and as you say it's proof the seal is intact and working correctly. In the past, when I'd do a clutch, I'd rarely replace the grease seal and never had any issue just sliding it on, and that's pretty telling. Oh, yeah - leave the gear shifter in neutral to give yourself some play on the input shaft side to rotate slightly and find the teeth on the clutch disk.
Once it's to where the gap on all sides are even, that's when you grab the plumbers channel-lock pliers and go left to right gradually pulling them closer together until you can get a nut on that stud I mentioned. That will make things a lot easier and don't forget to throw a bolt in the bottom passenger side to ensure the bottom cinches up tightly, too.
Also on the needle bearing - I agree with you that the Mazdatrix pilot bearing install tool definitely sets the bearing further out than where I had pushed them to in the past. I'm hoping this will increase bearing life, as I always seemed to grenade the pilot bearing at some point - probably from not having a grease seal in place! Good luck,
This is not a value adding post I'm just excited for you to get it back together and to learn what the issue was!!!
Hopefully get to try this weekend. Only issue is my neighbor needs his "big" jack back so I'm back to using my little semi-crapified one with a slowww pressure leak. Meh...
Hopefully get to try this weekend. Only issue is my neighbor needs his "big" jack back so I'm back to using my little semi-crapified one with a slowww pressure leak. Meh...
Sounds like we have the same jack!!! I am guessing mine is female because I will never fully understand it.
Most the time it slowly lowers, however, sometimes under load it will hold its position. Whacky!
What's worse is I could definitely replace it, I guess I'd rather the excitement.
There's your problem. Run up on some ramps and drag that transmission under there with you pick it up and cram it in. The trans doesn't weigh but 40 or 50 pounds.
With the transmission in your hands you have MUCH more control over it rather than trying to manipulate a jack. Sometimes it requires a helper with a 19mm to jimmy the engine around, but that's why we have wives and girlfriends.
EDIT: or use the big jack to pick up the front of the car about 2 feet in the air. That'll give you enough room to move around under there.
There's your problem. Run up on some ramps and drag that transmission under there with you pick it up and cram it in. The trans doesn't weigh but 40 or 50 pounds.
I will call you next time I need someone to bench press a damn transmission in, thats impressive.
Johnny, there is no need to fill the pilot hole "full" of grease. Obviously, the shaft takes up most all of the bore. Sounds like you are having trouble because it's hydraulically preventing the shaft from seating.
After getting older ( and smarter ) I jack the tranny up, put blocks under the bell housing until I get it just short of the shaft lining up. The tail, I use a jack stand. Then slide between the two and it becomes effortless to bench press the tranny a couple inches. I've found it is imperative to tip the motor down to mate the two together. Many times over the years, I've put trannys in first gens. Especially my black SE. That sucker ought to almost fall into place, or something is wrong. You DO want the tranny in neutral so the shaft turns freely to sync into the pressure plate. Good luck and rotary dreams.
These guys are referring to what's known as the 'Bear Hug' technique. We've all done it in our younger days, but the older you get the harder it becomes to wrestle that bear into position from underneath the car.
Plus, when you get it all bolted in and your tools are strewn across the garage floor from throwing them, your wife thinks you had a Navy career you never told her about, and you're covered in grease from head to toe, at least then the transmission is in place for another 50-60k miles until it needs a new clutch.
As the above poster states - if you've FILLED the pilot bearing hole with grease you'll never get it in. You wouldn't be able to get enough force to hydraulically force all that grease past the seal.
There's your problem. Run up on some ramps and drag that transmission under there with you pick it up and cram it in. The trans doesn't weigh but 40 or 50 pounds.
With the transmission in your hands you have MUCH more control over it rather than trying to manipulate a jack. Sometimes it requires a helper with a 19mm to jimmy the engine around, but that's why we have wives and girlfriends.
EDIT: or use the big jack to pick up the front of the car about 2 feet in the air. That'll give you enough room to move around under there.
So how am I to keep the rear of the engine from diving south without the tranny mount supporting it whilst I run it up on ramps? I'm fine with how the car is positioned and using a jack, that's not my problem.
..Dragging and cramming ain't my style either, that's sloppy and how **** gets fucked up.
Johnny, there is no need to fill the pilot hole "full" of grease. Obviously, the shaft takes up most all of the bore. Sounds like you are having trouble because it's hydraulically preventing the shaft from seating.
After getting older ( and smarter ) I jack the tranny up, put blocks under the bell housing until I get it just short of the shaft lining up. The tail, I use a jack stand. Then slide between the two and it becomes effortless to bench press the tranny a couple inches. I've found it is imperative to tip the motor down to mate the two together. Many times over the years, I've put trannys in first gens. Especially my black SE. That sucker ought to almost fall into place, or something is wrong. You DO want the tranny in neutral so the shaft turns freely to sync into the pressure plate. Good luck and rotary dreams.
Yeah I agree filling the bore full of grease would be counterproductive.. glad I'm not doing that. Only time I packed the bore full of grease was when I was using the grease trick to remove the bearing.
..I'm lubing the inner bearing race with just enough to pack the rollers with white Li grease. I'm also very LIGHTLY coating the input shaft splines and throw-out bearing tube with regular bearing grease to aid in assembly.
I'll see how it goes and keep your tips in mind.. You've put in far more than me so I'll add your experience to the collective lot. First thing will be putting it in neutral as you and LongDuck suggest.
I had a huge problem with my trans as well, fought with it for the better part of two days, and just said screw this, and pulled the engine out. it was much easier to mate the trans to the engine out of the car, but still a bit tricky to get the whole assembly lined up and put back in the car by myself.
This saves a lot of time, energy and choice words! Takes an hour at most to unhook everything and pull the engine and trans out together. And you can do everything yourself.
So how am I to keep the rear of the engine from diving south without the tranny mount supporting it whilst I run it up on ramps? I'm fine with how the car is positioned and using a jack, that's not my problem.
You have the trans mounted up to the body of the car and you're trying to attach it to the engine?
I'm missing something?
The exhaust will hold the engine up. If you're concerned about it you can use a jack and a 1X4 and push up on the engine, but the higher the engine the more difficult it will be to get the transmission mated.
If you were local I'd say give me a case of beer and I can stick it in the hole for ya.
I used the bolt trick, bench press method, kept tranny out of gear, continued to read old threads here and elsewhere and tried just about everything suggested. I once more reset the clutch with the alignment tool, still no dice.
So being pretty much out of options I've decided to remove the engine and mount it out of the car. I need to get a hoist for this but HF has a fairly well reviewed one on sale this weekend. I'm looking at it as a chance to clean things up in the bay, problem is I tend to get sidetracked with the "..well this is out so I might as well do this and this and this" gotta stay focused.
Lots of house and family obligations coming up.. I'll update once I make some progress.
So I know this thread has been going for awhile. Actually its amazing really. I'll chime in with
how I do the transmission install.
1. Car on 4 jack stands up as high as they go so I have lots of room to wrangle that tranny around.
2. Use a scissor jack and 2x4 under the engine to let it droop down a bit to make it easier to insert said tranny.
3. Drag tranny under car along with hydraulic jack.
4. Position jack and its wheels so it can roll front to back.
5. Lift tranny onto jack at balance point, roughly just under the box of the tranny after the bell housing. You may have to fiddle around a bit to get it balanced.
6. Make sure the clutch disc and pilot hole are all aligned with the clutch alignment tool or whatever you have that will work.
7. Make sure tranny is in neutral with no fluids in it.
8. Use jack to lift tranny to almost correct height. Then tilt it some to go in.
9. Slide it into place. You may need to jiggle around a bit to get there.
10. Attach a couple of bolts loosely and then see if it will go home by pushing it the rest of the way in.
11. Tighten bolts a bit and go around putting the other bolts in place.
12. Get tranny mount ready to go on and raise the tranny up with the jack to get the rear mount bolted up.
1. Car on 4 jack stands up as high as they go so I have lots of room to wrangle that tranny around..
I did it Egyptian style
I rolled up on the rail road ties with the ramps. Moved the ramps; rolled back on the rail road ties. Then positioned the ramps infront of the rear tires and drove forward.
But I imagine without a tranny at all you'd need a car to push your car up on there. Or jack it up and slide the ramps under the tires.
One time I told a guy to dig a hole to get to his transmission. I love messing with people.
^^I imagine that would work though
As for pulling that engine out... find an oak tree. and a use a couple of blocks and a sturdy line like a mainsheet. or a use a chain fall. OR get a couple of buddies and a pair of two by fours.
HF has a nice fold up lift. I can attest to the HF cherry picker. I use one that must be 20yo and its still good.
So I know this thread has been going for awhile. Actually its amazing really. I'll chime in with
how I do the transmission install.
1. Car on 4 jack stands up as high as they go so I have lots of room to wrangle that tranny around.
2. Use a scissor jack and 2x4 under the engine to let it droop down a bit to make it easier to insert said tranny.
3. Drag tranny under car along with hydraulic jack.
4. Position jack and its wheels so it can roll front to back.
5. Lift tranny onto jack at balance point, roughly just under the box of the tranny after the bell housing. You may have to fiddle around a bit to get it balanced.
6. Make sure the clutch disc and pilot hole are all aligned with the clutch alignment tool or whatever you have that will work.
7. Make sure tranny is in neutral with no fluids in it.
8. Use jack to lift tranny to almost correct height. Then tilt it some to go in.
9. Slide it into place. You may need to jiggle around a bit to get there.
10. Attach a couple of bolts loosely and then see if it will go home by pushing it the rest of the way in.
11. Tighten bolts a bit and go around putting the other bolts in place.
12. Get tranny mount ready to go on and raise the tranny up with the jack to get the rear mount bolted up.
Lol yeah I know I was hoping this would all be said and done before hitting 2 pages, it's pretty embarrassing at this point.
The procedure you outlined is exactly (one of the ways) I tried. Last time I thought I was good to go and had the bolts evenly tightened as I was working it in. I got to about 3/4" and things started feeling a bit too tight so I stopped, loosened a bit, wiggled and tried some more. I did this several times and finally just backed everything off.
I'm using the clutch alignment tool to carefully align and center the clutch while tightening the pp. I also checked clutch fitment on the input shaft before mounting, and while it was an extremely precise fit, it slid on the input shaft just fine once perfectly aligned.
I gotta say I'm pretty envious of you experienced guys that can line it up and slide it home in like 10 minutes. I researched the procedure before deciding to do it and it seemed like everybody eventually got it with a little fiddling around. I wasn't expecting a cake-walk but this is way past getting old. ..Knowing I'm not the only guy ever to have troubles with this lessens the sting a little though.
Maybe I'll give it one last shot with the bolts again tonight before committing to the engine pull this weekend. Don't expect to hear from me until something monumental occurs. I'm sick of bumping this embarrassment
Hey, don't be embarassed! I had trouble just like you and it took me over an hour to get the engine lined up just right to even get CLOSE. It was at that point that my buddy asked, "Do you have any clamps...?" and I remembered the tip posted here about using plumbers pliers to pull the engine and transmission together.
In my case, I'm pretty sure it was hydraulic lock from the grease on the pilot bearing not having anywhere to go with a new grease seal in place. Regardless, if the grease seal is protruding from the flat cylinder of the eccentric shaft, then you may need to tap the pilot bearing (and grease seal) in just a little further. Keep in mind that it doesn't need to bottom out to work properly - this is where the Mazdatrix tool comes in handy as the tool bottoms out before the pilot bearing does.
Go easy, and good luck - I'm not the only one hoping for your next post to be 'Got it!', or you wouldn't have 2 pages of replies!
Hey, don't get down. Gotta start somewhere. There is an MX-3, with a good engine not attached, sitting in a junkyard somewhere*; my first attempt mating an engine to a transmission never made it in. But FWD is much more annoying than RWD. You'll get it.
*Its probably been crushed sent to china and made it back as a HF cherry picker by now.
Thanks for the encouragement guys.. that last bit of well-wishing must've helped 'cause I finally got that sucker in Saturday morning!
So somewhere along the line I buggered up the clutch splines and this was presumably keeping it from aligning properly. It had to have been after one of my bolt attempts but this doesn't explain why I couldn't get it aligned before trying to draw it in tight with the bolts during earlier attempts. The disk spline to input shaft tolerance was extremely precise as mentioned earlier in this thread, so maybe it was that the spline tolerances were a little too tight from the get-go?
Anyway here's the damage I did to the disk splines:
Here's the undamaged flywheel side for comparison:
I used a file to clean up the damage done to the splines and LIGHTLY ran it along the full length of each spline to open them up a little. I checked free-play afterward using the alignment tool and it was just a fraction more loose than the stocker clutch. I then took the wire wheel to the repaired side to smooth out the rough texture around the circumference of the spline mouth and any roughness from the file. Above you can see how bumpy and rough the castings are.. It was pretty rough and I wasn't convinced this was not causing issues. Finally I used a dab of Turtle Wax "Trim Restore" around the wire-wheeled spline casting which makes polished metal slicker than snot in the hopes this would aid in getting the splines to slip together and mesh properly. Much more thin and slippery than any grease aside from non-drying free running oil.
Once I remounted the clutch and pp and got it aligned the tranny went right up and in, super smooth and no fuss. Best part is I don't have to pull the engine now
So in hind-sight, I think it was always a spline alignment/"tightness" issue... I don't think the pilot bearing depth or excessive grease seal vacuum ever came into play. If anybody finds themselves in a similar situation take a very close look at your clutch disk and be sure to check how snug of a fit it is on your input shaft and how tricky it is to align it by hand, mine had to be dead perfect for the splines to mesh. Once I repaired the damage, smoothed the spline casting face and "relaxed" the spline channels a tad with a super-light filing it was good to go.
05-04-15, 06:47 PM
Sounds like we have the same jack!!! I am guessing mine is female because I will never fully understand it. 
gotta stay focused. 
