Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

Help guys.. I'm having a bitch of a time getting my tranny to go back in. At the risk of sounding remedial I replaced the pilot bearing, grease seal, clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. I also upgraded to the Al flywheel and appropriate counterweight. Everything from Mazdatrix and should totally fit my 85 SE as ordered.

Starting at the flywheel... It's installed w/the counterweight and torqued down to spec. The flywheel came with spacers for between the clutch and pp which are also being used as instructed.

The new clutch is the Exedy stage I street/strip. It came with the pilot bearing, seal, clutch, pp and throw-out bearing.

I can get the tranny aligned but it just wont go in.. It feels like "something" is in the way. I checked clutch centering vs the pp using my .001 dig calipers and it's centered. The alignment tool fits the old clutch too, so it's the right clutch.

I've enlisted the help of my neighbor who has helped install transmissions before.. he called 4 of his even more experienced friends and nobody had anything new to offer.

I can't even get it close enough for the splines to engage.. Is it a matter of having it perfectly aligned or what? I've turned the output shaft of the tranny while we tried to engage (yes it's in gear and the input shaft is turning) but nothing seems to help.

I'm at a total loss here. Anybody have some wisdom??

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

So I got in several more hours of trying to get it to mate and I'm now of the opinion that the grease seal is the culprit. I've ruled everything else out and this is all I got...

Gonna try using the "grease trick" to non-destructively pop out the seal and pilot bearing and make SURE the inside diameters are kosher.

heynoman

iTrader: (5)

that might just be your problem last clutch kit I got from exedy came with a pilot bearing that was too thick to use the inside diameter was smaller and didn't fit the input shaft I ended up using one that I receive from Atkins in my rebuild kit the seal itself was fine just the pilot bearing looked weird too

atheadwins

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like you're on top of things, however, have you checked the splines on the transmission and clutch plate?

The only reason I ask is I spent a whole day once trying to force a transmission in and I was somehow grinding the two together, after filing back to normal I was able to slide it right in.

Peace,
Al

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

heynoman: that totally sucks but I'm actually pleased to hear that. I feel like a dope since I did pretty much everything except check fitment of the new seal and pilot bearing over the input shaft before installing everything.

I'll hopefully get a chance to remove the pp and clutch tonight and get the bearing and seal out.


atheadwins: good idea but yeah I already checked, kinda. I used the clutch alignment tool to check fitment between the old and new clutch. The tool splines fit identically in the old clutch and new one with zero binding or difference in play. Tonight when I remove the clutch to get the bearing and seal out I'll slide the new clutch over the input shaft to be 100% sure the splines fit as you suggested.

Thanks for the replies guys, always helpful. Once I get the scoop on the seal and bearing I'll update

twinkletoes

iTrader: (17)

If all the parts came from Mazdatrix then they should have sent you the oem pilot bearing and seal with the exedy kit. I'd call them and confirm before wasting a good bearing/seal by taking it back out..

I've had transmissions line up and go right together in 1 stab and others take what seems like forever to get installed.

Get a couple long studs with the same thread pitch/size as the transmission to engine bolts and thread those in across from each other in the engine. Use those as a guide to get the transmission lined up and once close enough start bolting the transmission to the engine with the other available bolts. Take the studs out and do the rest!

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

I'm fairly certain Mazdatrix is not the one supplying the pilot bearing and grease seal in these kits. This kit (kit 10806) is advertised on Exedy's site and shown to come with the same items I received in mine. As heynoman stated above this happened to him, so I can't totally rule out that the wrong seal and/or bearing was included by accident. The only way for me to be sure is to pull the seal and bearing and check myself... I'm not too stressed about spending another 20-ish bucks to be certain I have the correct parts.. This is the last puzzle piece I haven't absolutely confirmed as being correct.

That bolt tip is good... I saw Doc mention it when I was researching this a little while back and you're right, it really helps out aligning things. It helped me square up the block with the tranny perfectly. I found 2 in addition to the "permanent" oem alignment bolt on the top worked well.

craaaazzy

iTrader: (9)

another trick to getting the pilot bearing out is to use white bread and stuff it in like you would w/ the grease...a lot less messy.

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

So I had enough time to pop the seal last night.. the grease trick worked but like craaaazy said it was fairly messy.

Well it's not the seal, that slid over the input shaft perfectly.

I don't have any other obligations tonight so I should have plenty of time to finish getting the bearing out and then all shall be made clear.

I'll likely go ahead and order a new seal and bearing today and (even though I don't want to) throw-down for the install tool. I used a socket last time and it worked but I'm no pro and would be a little less stressed hammering in my fresh bearing and seal knowing I didn't ding anything fumbling with a socket.

Smokeyfb33

iTrader: (8)

Ive been extremely frustrated trying to line up my transmission. Its seems to me that it needs to be perfectly aligned to get the shaft inside the bearing. Good luck with round 2!

rwatson5651

iTrader: (5)

Are you using any kind of transmission jack or floor jack to position the tranny?

Lifting it by hand makes it very difficult to stabilize it so that it goes forward easily.

I tried a transmission jack. It was too tall to use under the car cause my jack stands wouldn't lift the car high enough, even when augmented with wood blocks, so I took the tranny jack apart and ditched all of it except the bottom platform and kept the part that can be adjusted to tilt the trans to the exact angle needed. I slide the jack under the car, wrestle the trans onto the little platform, and then jack it into place and adjust the angle so it is perfectly square with the engine.

Ever since I did this I have been able to slide them home with no drama. I am getting older and just don't have the shoulders to do it by hand anymore.

2cents

heynoman

iTrader: (5)

I was looking for that pilot bearing so that you could have had something to compare it to before you took yours out but no luck finding it like rwatson said you should use a couple of jacks to help support the trans in place while you try to put in . You can also get some longer bolts and once you have the trans align close enough you can snug them up loosely to hold it in place while you get the input shaft to engage the clutch disk and the tighten them up till the transmission mates completely with the engine just be careful not to apply a lot of pressure

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I've been using my neighbors big jack to lift and position the thing.

Here's more or less what I've been doing:
I have the car up on jack stands and I'm able to slide the tranny (on a sheet of cardboard) under the car, then tilt the tailshaft up and roll the jack under the gearbox portion. After that I can easily jack it up and get it positioned on the helper bolts. With the front load mostly on the bolts I can pretty easily angle the tail of the tranny around. I lay under the car on my back with my feet forward and head to the back (but looking fwd) so I can adjust the jack. This also allows me to use a foot against the flat spot where the starter goes for extra leverage. Once I think I'm close I use a pry bar (in a non-cavemanesque fashion) between the back of the shift shaft and the metal plate around where the shifter goes up thru the floor for leverage. I'm not prying like a wild man and nothing is getting bent or damaged but enough force is there to move it forward down the axis of the input shaft if it aligns. I have the back of the engine tilted down far enough so I don't run out of vertical clearance with the tail when lining it up. Every so often I rotate the output shaft to help align the input shaft and clutch disk. Again tho the problem is I don't feel any change in drag on the shaft which makes me think clutch spline alignment isn't the issue as I seem to be getting ****-blocked at the bore, raising my concerns about the seal and bearing diameter.

I'm getting really skilled at getting it up into position. Not sure that's a good thing tho.

I'll find out tonight if it's just a matter of uber precision aligning like Smokey suggests... If I find the pilot bearing is correct (which since the seal was I'm guessing it will be) I'll know I just need to keep working on positioning.

prophetjohn

iTrader: (1)

I had a huge problem with my trans as well, fought with it for the better part of two days, and just said screw this, and pulled the engine out. it was much easier to mate the trans to the engine out of the car, but still a bit tricky to get the whole assembly lined up and put back in the car by myself.

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

Thanks John... I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.
I've seen other guys say pulling the engine and mating the tranny up with the engine outside the car is much easier, as much as I don't want to believe it.

I've never pulled this engine (actually any engine) before but HAVE had just about everything involved in removing it off the car at some point.


Soooo, last night... I'm not sure if any of you guys have actually successfully used the grease, bread or paper trick for the pilot bearing in our cars but I had absolutely no luck. So since my cheapo harbor freight puller broke while I was removing the oem bearing previously, (and attempts at using it here resulted in me hogging up the inner race...badly) I ran over to Autobone and rented their pilot bearing puller. I was shocked they actually had the thing.

In the end I have no idea if THAT bearing was the issue or not since I dicked it up with my broke-*** HF puller before getting it out with the rented one. meh...

So now it's a waiting game until the new bearing, seal and install tool get here from Cali. ..And you can be certain I'll test fit them both over the input shaft before tapping them in to the E-shaft bore.

It's been a PITA with all this backtracking but at least I'll be sure now that I'm not fighting an improper bearing or seal. From everything I've heard I'm guessing it's just a matter of atomically precise alignment. I'll update again once something significant has been accomplished.

heynoman

iTrader: (5)

Now that you have the pilot bearing and seal removed you can try a test fit to if you have any luck that way you can see if the bearing and seal was your problem or if there is something else going on

Qingdao

iTrader: (3)

The clutch alignment tool is the same size/shape as the input shaft on the transmission. If it fit no problems your issue is elsewhere.

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

New parts arrived earlier than expected. Bearing and seal fit properly over input shaft, so I can finally move ahead with certainty that the fault doesn't lie in the parts.

Won't get a chance to try again until next week...

NCross

iTrader: (18)

Is the transmission in neutral?

atheadwins

iTrader: (3)

Good question!

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

On an FC,you can tilt the engine up at the front and down at the back(like it was gonna fly out of the engine bay sort of thing..That angle..)
That allows you to slide the trans on easier.
Noting that it is for an Fb then maybe you can or can't,but I thought I would mention it.
Another thing is if you have the pressure plate/clutch disc on then sometimes the disc is so tight that it won't give you play to allow yo to get the input shaft in.
I literally had to put an engine on it's face and divebomb the trans onto the back of the engine once.( I found out what I did afterwards!).
Now IF You can access the PP bolts by the inspection cover then you can keep the PP and clutch disc a little loose to get the Disc and input shaft together and that should guide you to the Pilot bearing hole.
Then of course you can bolt down the PP and also the trans bolts.

savanna.seven

iTrader: (5)

I had a very difficult time servicing a customers TurboII a couple months ago with an issue like this.

Had the transmission lined up and everything but it refused to go in all the way. Turned out the Pilot Bearing Seal was doing such a good job at "sealing"...I was fighting against the grease in the pilot bearing hole since the pressure would not bleed out past the seal lol.

Needless to say i had to find long bolts to thread through the bellhousing and and iron and slowly close the gap while I held the transmission level and a friend snugged them down.

LongDuck

Just did this today with an Exedy Stage2 and RB aluminum flywheel install, and was facing the same issue - no matter what, I could not get perfect alignment on the input shaft and PP/engine. My buddy looked at it and asked if I had any clamps, and I remembered reading here about using plumbers pliers that expand to 3-4" to pull the parts together, and then it was smooth as silk.

Best place to grab it is from the passenger side there's a heavy lug on the tranny which mates up with the rear lift point which you can apply some gripping force to close the gap. It gets you close enough to get a bolt in, and then just a matter of moving from side to side and bottom slowly tightening the bolts down. It did the trick.

Also, regarding the Idle Bearing and Grease Seal, the bearing should not protrude inward any more than the grease seal inner face. You can feel it with your finger tip, and I'm thinking an undersized Idle Bearing is unlikely to be the problem with mating the tranny to the engine.

Let us know how it goes, though, and good luck,

Johnny_Cracker

iTrader: (1)

Wow guys lots of good stuff.. thanks a million!

Ncross: No, I have it in gear so I can spin the input shaft from the output shaft to help align the clutch splines.

misterstyx69: Yeah the FB seems to have enough give in the front mounts to let me pitch the rear of the engine down a good bit. I actually pitched it a little bit more on one of my last attempts before pulling the bearing because the shift column needed a little more clearance. I think the angle is good enough to give me the vertical play I need for wiggling.

savanna.seven: Very good stuff.. this might actually be what my issue is. When fitting the clutch alignment tool I'd notice the air pressure alone would prevent me from getting the tool in. I'd have to take it nice and slow. I figured the weight of the transmission would prevent that from being an issue, perhaps not...

I know clamps and bolts are frowned upon, but using them (with extreme caution) seems to be a recurring theme here. It makes sense that slowly squeezing the air out is gonna work much better than trying to force it out all at once.

I'll let you guys know how things turn out. It's a busy week but hope to get some time in one of these evenings.

NCross

iTrader: (18)

Get it as close as you can and use an extra long bolt on at least one hole to pull it into the engine.