tranny swap help please
05-05-04, 02:44 PM
#1
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tranny swap help please
my current tranny is grinding so i'll be swapping it out with another very soon.
i know while i'm down there to change out the clutch...but i was wondering what else i should replace since i'll be down there...seals, bearings, whatever...
i currently have a 1984 GSL-SE...
thanx!
i know while i'm down there to change out the clutch...but i was wondering what else i should replace since i'll be down there...seals, bearings, whatever...
i currently have a 1984 GSL-SE...
thanx!
05-05-04, 03:17 PM
#2
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Anytime you crack the block from the tranny, I'd recommend the following, and for these reasons;
1) throwout bearing (TOB) - the TOB can get noisy when it gets old, so changing now can help you diagnose a tranny 'whir' that would otherwise also be attributed to the TOB. Plus, it's cheap.
2) tranny front cover - this cover is what keeps the tranny fluid inside the tranny, and also gives the TOB a surface to slide against. When the cover gets dinged up or worn, it prevents the TOB from moving smoothly over it's surface, which can feel like a grinding clutch pedal, or otherwise make for un-smooth clutch engagement. Plus, you get a new pivot for your clutch fork, which will smooth out the pedal action. Replace the oil seal gasket, too, while you're in there.
3) needle bearing (engine output side) - This bearing is installed inside the eccentric shaft on the engine output side and when it goes out, it will cause rough shifting and what seems like synchro problems. This is because the bearing is dragging and causing the tranny gears to spin in neutral, which prevents smooth synchro engagement to the next gear. Push your clutch pedal in, if you hear a whirring noise, this bearing should be replaced.
4) Oil seal for needle bearing - Keeps the oil from the eccentric shaft from leaking past into th bell housing area. Cheap insurance to replace, and comes out before the needle bearing, anyway.
5) Clutch disk - cheap insurance for a $40 part. New clutch lining will ensure that your engine is able to transmit the power to the transmission to the ground. Sucks to find out you need a new clutch because yours is slipping and you just swapped your tranny out a month ago...
6) Clutch Cover plate - if necessary. This is another of those 'while-you're-in-there' parts. Easier to change or swap when you have it all apart than later. At the least, inspect the lining on it to be sure you have some left. An expensive part to replace, but if it's worn, it's going to require replacement, eventually...
7) Trans fluid - much easier to drain the tranny first and make the assembly lighter and easier to handle without spills. Use a quality replacement SAE 90W gear oil. Royal Purple gets high marks when you go to refill.
That's about it. Most other parts would be more intensive to change/replace, and won't net you much. HTH,
1) throwout bearing (TOB) - the TOB can get noisy when it gets old, so changing now can help you diagnose a tranny 'whir' that would otherwise also be attributed to the TOB. Plus, it's cheap.
2) tranny front cover - this cover is what keeps the tranny fluid inside the tranny, and also gives the TOB a surface to slide against. When the cover gets dinged up or worn, it prevents the TOB from moving smoothly over it's surface, which can feel like a grinding clutch pedal, or otherwise make for un-smooth clutch engagement. Plus, you get a new pivot for your clutch fork, which will smooth out the pedal action. Replace the oil seal gasket, too, while you're in there.
3) needle bearing (engine output side) - This bearing is installed inside the eccentric shaft on the engine output side and when it goes out, it will cause rough shifting and what seems like synchro problems. This is because the bearing is dragging and causing the tranny gears to spin in neutral, which prevents smooth synchro engagement to the next gear. Push your clutch pedal in, if you hear a whirring noise, this bearing should be replaced.
4) Oil seal for needle bearing - Keeps the oil from the eccentric shaft from leaking past into th bell housing area. Cheap insurance to replace, and comes out before the needle bearing, anyway.
5) Clutch disk - cheap insurance for a $40 part. New clutch lining will ensure that your engine is able to transmit the power to the transmission to the ground. Sucks to find out you need a new clutch because yours is slipping and you just swapped your tranny out a month ago...
6) Clutch Cover plate - if necessary. This is another of those 'while-you're-in-there' parts. Easier to change or swap when you have it all apart than later. At the least, inspect the lining on it to be sure you have some left. An expensive part to replace, but if it's worn, it's going to require replacement, eventually...
7) Trans fluid - much easier to drain the tranny first and make the assembly lighter and easier to handle without spills. Use a quality replacement SAE 90W gear oil. Royal Purple gets high marks when you go to refill.
That's about it. Most other parts would be more intensive to change/replace, and won't net you much. HTH,
05-05-04, 03:22 PM
#3
Airflow is my life
Other than #2 
I would however inspect the cover for signs of leakage and the sliding surface for the TOB for damage. Clean, maybe replace the gasket if it looks fubar and emery the sliding surface if its not smooth. Just my $0.02
I would however inspect the cover for signs of leakage and the sliding surface for the TOB for damage. Clean, maybe replace the gasket if it looks fubar and emery the sliding surface if its not smooth. Just my $0.02
...thanks guys...
05-05-04, 06:29 PM
#5
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
It's heavier than it looks!
Mark your driveshaft at the rear yoke so that you can get it reinstalled in the same bolt configuration - this will keep the driveline balanced and smooth on reassembly. A simple white mark across the yoke attach and the differential input will do...
Drain your tranny first to help get a few more pounds out of it. it can be drained by releasing the rear mount with a pan under the driveshaft hole - this will allow the fluid to drain from the carrier, but you'll also want to remove the drain and fill bolts before removal.
Pull the tranny straight back from the engine to keep the transmission input shaft from 'hanging' off of the eccentric shaft - this can flex your front-cover and possibly damage the seals there, and the needle bearing in the eccentric shaft.
Get a 'clutch alignment tool' - it's a lifesaver and makes a difficult job much easier.
Clean out the inside of the tranny bell housing to keep oil and grease off of your clutch surfaces. Don't touch the clutch disk or pressure plate with greasy hands, this will lead to 'chatter' once it's all back together, and only one way to fix it - removal.
Check out your transmission rubber mount while you have it out - $20 part that makes a world of difference in engine smoothness and shifting precision.
Remove the clutch slave cylinder before you get started to help you get it lined up on reinstallation. After it's back in, insert the clutch rod into the clutch fork, and bolt the slave down again.
That's about all the little tricks I can think of. Have a friend help you, it's heavy. Good luck,
Mark your driveshaft at the rear yoke so that you can get it reinstalled in the same bolt configuration - this will keep the driveline balanced and smooth on reassembly. A simple white mark across the yoke attach and the differential input will do...
Drain your tranny first to help get a few more pounds out of it. it can be drained by releasing the rear mount with a pan under the driveshaft hole - this will allow the fluid to drain from the carrier, but you'll also want to remove the drain and fill bolts before removal.
Pull the tranny straight back from the engine to keep the transmission input shaft from 'hanging' off of the eccentric shaft - this can flex your front-cover and possibly damage the seals there, and the needle bearing in the eccentric shaft.
Get a 'clutch alignment tool' - it's a lifesaver and makes a difficult job much easier.
Clean out the inside of the tranny bell housing to keep oil and grease off of your clutch surfaces. Don't touch the clutch disk or pressure plate with greasy hands, this will lead to 'chatter' once it's all back together, and only one way to fix it - removal.
Check out your transmission rubber mount while you have it out - $20 part that makes a world of difference in engine smoothness and shifting precision.
Remove the clutch slave cylinder before you get started to help you get it lined up on reinstallation. After it's back in, insert the clutch rod into the clutch fork, and bolt the slave down again.
That's about all the little tricks I can think of. Have a friend help you, it's heavy. Good luck,
05-05-04, 09:00 PM
#6
I'll end up doing most of the work I'm surej so I'd better pay attention to this thread 
LongDuck, the needle bearing you speak of is the pilot bearing right? Short of getting the mazdatrix tool (which I'm seriously making hector buy
) is there any other way to get that thing out? While we're down there should we pull the flywheel and machine it? also, what do you guys support teh back of the engine with? just a block of wood on a jack? And lastly the exhaust and underbody heat shield must be removed right? The only reason I ask about that is all that was off of my project car when I got around to pulling the engine, and I didn't take note of the clearances.
LongDuck, the needle bearing you speak of is the pilot bearing right? Short of getting the mazdatrix tool (which I'm seriously making hector buy
) is there any other way to get that thing out? While we're down there should we pull the flywheel and machine it? also, what do you guys support teh back of the engine with? just a block of wood on a jack? And lastly the exhaust and underbody heat shield must be removed right? The only reason I ask about that is all that was off of my project car when I got around to pulling the engine, and I didn't take note of the clearances.
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05-05-04, 11:26 PM
#8
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
When I said the 'needle bearing' - I do mean the pilot bearing and seal. It is of a needle bearing design, so I didn't use the proper Mazda term for it, but that's the part.
If yours is in good shape, Mazdatrix recommends that you just relube it and be done - if you remove it, you're likely to damage it which can lead to bigger problems later on. I've heard that relubing it is just as effective, and a lot less hassle. If you're like me, and want to do it all with new parts, then you can use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably), or use another method suggested by a poster here in a thread from long ago. Get some heavy axle grease and pump this into the hole, past the pilot bearing, then get a wooden dowell that just barely fits into the inside of the bearing race. Pound this dowel into the middle of the bearing and it will force the grease out against the race, thereby forcing the bearing out through hydraulic pressure. I've not used this method before, but understand how it could work.
Machining of the flywheel should only be necessary if you notice surface imperfections that make you worry about it eating up the clutch disk in short order. I wouldn't go through that trouble, as it means removal of the flywheel which is another hunk of cash for the right parts, not to mention that it's difficult to work on that flywheel at all with the engine still in the car. If it's smooth, and not greasy or dinged up, you're probably fine to leave it.
A block of wood on a jack against the rear of the engine is suitable to support the engine while the tranny is out - definitely support it with something or you're going to be replacing front engine mounts soon enough.
The heatshields are a PITA to work around, so I removed mine quite awhile ago - they probably won't get in the way for a tranny swap, but if you see anything closeby, I'd just remove and be done.
The FB transmissions tend to be pretty robust as long as you keep good fluid in them (of the correct type and level), and that they're not abused through 'speed-shifting' and/or overheating due to low fluid. I've never had a problem with mine, and that's 176k miles on my yellow 84SE, and 212k mi on my black 80LS. HTH,
If yours is in good shape, Mazdatrix recommends that you just relube it and be done - if you remove it, you're likely to damage it which can lead to bigger problems later on. I've heard that relubing it is just as effective, and a lot less hassle. If you're like me, and want to do it all with new parts, then you can use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably), or use another method suggested by a poster here in a thread from long ago. Get some heavy axle grease and pump this into the hole, past the pilot bearing, then get a wooden dowell that just barely fits into the inside of the bearing race. Pound this dowel into the middle of the bearing and it will force the grease out against the race, thereby forcing the bearing out through hydraulic pressure. I've not used this method before, but understand how it could work.
Machining of the flywheel should only be necessary if you notice surface imperfections that make you worry about it eating up the clutch disk in short order. I wouldn't go through that trouble, as it means removal of the flywheel which is another hunk of cash for the right parts, not to mention that it's difficult to work on that flywheel at all with the engine still in the car. If it's smooth, and not greasy or dinged up, you're probably fine to leave it.
A block of wood on a jack against the rear of the engine is suitable to support the engine while the tranny is out - definitely support it with something or you're going to be replacing front engine mounts soon enough.
The heatshields are a PITA to work around, so I removed mine quite awhile ago - they probably won't get in the way for a tranny swap, but if you see anything closeby, I'd just remove and be done.
The FB transmissions tend to be pretty robust as long as you keep good fluid in them (of the correct type and level), and that they're not abused through 'speed-shifting' and/or overheating due to low fluid. I've never had a problem with mine, and that's 176k miles on my yellow 84SE, and 212k mi on my black 80LS. HTH,
05-05-04, 11:55 PM
#9
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fb trans is light as **** for the abuse it will take.
It's a really easy job as far as transmissions go.
I'd only replace what's broken, but do check all the other parts.
I've ran without pilot bearings with no side effects, not that I advise it.
It's a really easy job as far as transmissions go.
I'd only replace what's broken, but do check all the other parts.
I've ran without pilot bearings with no side effects, not that I advise it.
05-05-04, 11:58 PM
#10
Still Dreams of 3rd Gen
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fb trans is light as ****, especially for the abuse it will take.
It's a really easy job as far as transmissions go.
I'd only replace what's broken, but do check all the other parts.
I've ran without pilot bearings with no side effects, not that I advise it.
It's a really easy job as far as transmissions go.
I'd only replace what's broken, but do check all the other parts.
I've ran without pilot bearings with no side effects, not that I advise it.
05-06-04, 05:50 PM
#12
Hey LongDuck, you posted " if you hear a whirring noise, this bearing should be replaced."
Would this also apply when the clutch it out and in neutral? I hear a whirring noise when i'm at say a stoplight, it's not loud by no means, but it's there. My mechanic told me it's just the gears running. The #3 on your first post just kinda sparked that.
Would this also apply when the clutch it out and in neutral? I hear a whirring noise when i'm at say a stoplight, it's not loud by no means, but it's there. My mechanic told me it's just the gears running. The #3 on your first post just kinda sparked that.
05-06-04, 06:48 PM
#13
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Pilot bearing problems are ONLY encountered if you hear the 'whirring' sound when the clutch is pushed IN, with the engine spinning and the tranny in any gear or neutral.
When you release the clutch with the transmission in neutral, the pilot bearing isn't spinning at all - it's static since the eccentric shaft and the transmission input shaft are spinning at the same rpm (i.e., the clutch is disengaged and the pressure plate keeps the tranny spinning at engine rpm).
This is because the pilot bearing is only there to 'guide' (like a pilot guides an airplane) the transmission input shaft to keep it all in-line when the clutch is engaged and disengaged. Without the pilot bearing in place, there is the possiblilty that the input shaft on the tranny would be off-center a slight amount when the clutch releases resulting in off-center imbalance, clutch chatter, and vibration throughout the driveline.
With the clutch in, the Pilot Bearing is free to spin, since the tranny and eccentric shaft are inherently moving at different rpm's. The pilot bearing tends to last a long time (with proper lubrication), since it is ONLY spinning when the clutch is engaged (pushed down), which is a very small percentage of the time that you drive your car.
Think about how often the engine is spinning when your foot is pressing the clutch; stoplights, stop signs, etc... any longer than that and most of us put the tranny in neutral and let the clutch out.
Some symptoms of a pilot bearing going out include a tendency for the bearing to drag and thus impart torque on the input shaft of the tranny. This will be felt like a partially engaged clutch, i.e., the tranny won't want to shift into gears smoothly at a standstill even though your foot is all the way to the floor with the clutch. The pilot bearing is causing the tranny to spin when you don't want it to, which will cause synchro wear, transmission wear, and further damage to the pilot bearing until it's totally worn out.
When you release the clutch with the transmission in neutral, the pilot bearing isn't spinning at all - it's static since the eccentric shaft and the transmission input shaft are spinning at the same rpm (i.e., the clutch is disengaged and the pressure plate keeps the tranny spinning at engine rpm).
This is because the pilot bearing is only there to 'guide' (like a pilot guides an airplane) the transmission input shaft to keep it all in-line when the clutch is engaged and disengaged. Without the pilot bearing in place, there is the possiblilty that the input shaft on the tranny would be off-center a slight amount when the clutch releases resulting in off-center imbalance, clutch chatter, and vibration throughout the driveline.
With the clutch in, the Pilot Bearing is free to spin, since the tranny and eccentric shaft are inherently moving at different rpm's. The pilot bearing tends to last a long time (with proper lubrication), since it is ONLY spinning when the clutch is engaged (pushed down), which is a very small percentage of the time that you drive your car.
Think about how often the engine is spinning when your foot is pressing the clutch; stoplights, stop signs, etc... any longer than that and most of us put the tranny in neutral and let the clutch out.
Some symptoms of a pilot bearing going out include a tendency for the bearing to drag and thus impart torque on the input shaft of the tranny. This will be felt like a partially engaged clutch, i.e., the tranny won't want to shift into gears smoothly at a standstill even though your foot is all the way to the floor with the clutch. The pilot bearing is causing the tranny to spin when you don't want it to, which will cause synchro wear, transmission wear, and further damage to the pilot bearing until it's totally worn out.
Last edited by LongDuck; 05-06-04 at 06:51 PM.
05-06-04, 11:15 PM
#14
Originally posted by LongDuck
...then you can use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably)....
...then you can use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably)....
05-07-04, 06:17 AM
#15
I read your email
Originally posted by LongDuck
... use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably),
... use the Pilot Bearing Removal Tool from Mazdatrix for $115, one-time-use (probably),
FYI, You can rent this tool for $15 from www.rx7.com You get your $100 deposit back upon return of the tool.
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