I have a hayes built 13B.

Because I get the sence that the engine is too hard to turn from what it should be based on my past experience with rotarys:

I am wondering if there is something wrong internally to cause too much friction or is this normal for an engine built this way.

History:

The engine may only have just a few miles on it that I put on it ( 2 miles)and plenty of rotations to try to get it started (I wore down a new battery and used ether {starting fluid in a dellorto carb} and finally got it running. I got this 13B from a previous owner who may never had gotten it to run. After I got the engine I installed it in a 79 rx7 where I transplanted this engine in place of a frozen 12a ( the previous owner let it run out of oil ( two different previous owners). So I had never driven this 79 rx7 before and had assumed the clutch and trany were at least drivable. as the cars previous owner said the car was taken out for a weekly spin when the engine died on the highway.

I found that I had to start the car with clutch down to floor and trany in 1st gear otherwise once engine had started I could not get the trany into 1st - it would not budge.

Prior to all this I noticed once the engine was instaslled that there was a tightness to the rotation of the engine off the front pully - harmonic balancer when I turned the e-shart with my ratchet for initial set up. all of my other engines have high milage 130 - 170 k miles on them and are much easier to turn. Usually I can tug on a belt and rotate these 12a's.

Question is this how tight a fresh engine should feel or is there something wrong inside. I called hayes and they said this was normal.

enough of the history


1. how do I figure out if there is excessive internal engine friction in the 13B or if this is the normal feel the engine should have or

2. am I while also starting the engine also turning the clutch that is almost but not completely fully disengaged off the flywheel and is turning trany parts too and that is where I am getting this feel from. But I do remember I could not turn the front e-shaft by hand when the engine was out and on a bench.

when the engine starts it sounds like there is more exhaust compression poping into the header but this is a two stage street port engine and it is the only car I have with a header on it.

looking for sound measurable tests as well as some subjective thoughts

not so easy is to pull the engine and see how it turns would rather approach from a different angle first
thought of adjusting the push rod off clutch pedal to disengage clutch more.


watch out for radar!!!!!!!!!!!!!

make it a great summer

 

1. Take out the lower plugs from each housing and see how much resistance there is to hand turning.

2. Start the engine with the tranny in neutral.

 

I origonally started the engine in neutral with same result, tight. once started I tried to shift into first It wouldnt at all.

I will see what happends when I take out the tailing plugs but why not the leading ones as that will releive compression first?

either case if it is great compression that I am not used to as well as a bigger engine, I hope to notice something with the spark plugs out.

But getting back to the shifting seems like the flywheel must be draging and not fully disengaging as I cant get it into first when the engine is running but I can when engine is stopped. thougt I should check the clutch adj rod. If this is the case then this wil also give a feel that engine is harder to turn as I an turning clutch and some trany parts too.

It still is hard to start, I have more work to do. A 74 second stage street port dellorto and RB intake with RB full long primary exhaust. I usually spray in some ether but once it catches it sounds like it has the potential to be a beast.I would rather tear the engien down first if there is a problem rather than killing it by mindlessly plowing ahead. there is no oil presure gage on a 79 only the idiot light but oil is comming up the ioler hoses I used fish tank air line at a decent rate
and I had to tighten up on the oil lines into the external oil cooler as I was getting a drip so this shows me I do have the poor mans oil pressure test as good .

any more thoughts?


also wanted to buy a RB 12a header presilencer and muffer for an '85 as the double long primaries are just not needed on a stock 12a..

 

Leading is the lower plugs. Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging, try adjusting the rod. If that doesn't do it, it may be time for a clutch master and slave.

 

if ur turning the engine by hand at the front pulley with the tranny in neutral, it should turn easily. how many miles since rebuild? i used new bearings in mine and i could still turn it fairly easily by hand. it did get easier tho after breakin.

 

trochoid
sounds like clutch isnt fully disengaging too if trany wont go into first with engine on but will when off.

rxtasy3

with trany in neutral I will check the level of dificulty in turning engine by hand either on the pully or belt, but last I remember I needed a ratchet and that was the only way. it looks like the trany is from the original SA as noted when I installed the engine and from interior of car but this is not verified.
I just went out to turn my 85 12a with trany in neutral. from the alternator pully with a hand grabine the belt on each side I could move the belt about an inch. I could not move the puley but it was quite dark and engine was still hot. however there is just something about the way this engine rotates and the way it stops that I feel something is "hugging a shaft a bit too tight"

 

i had a thought and others can post their opinions if i'm wrong. i can't remember how much end play the e-shaft supposed to have, i know it's not much, but what if the builder used too thin of spacer behind the pulley and it's crushing the thrust bearing? but i guess if that was the case, it would be making one hell of a screeching noise.

 

no screeching noises over here

 

any more opinions?

 

As for the tranny problem, with the engine off, you CAN shift any manual tranny between gears without use of the clutch.

 

^some times theyll need a little force/several attempts to line up the synchros when shifting w/ out the use of the clutch (engine off)

 

shifting into any gear with engine off is no problem goes right into gear.
engine on... no way will it go into first. I started car with tranny in 1st gear and clutch depressed and drove away. stalled at a light in gear with clutch depressed. Car then would not start at a light so I put tranny in neutral and depressed clutch finnally got car to start but it would not go into gear then. after many many tried it finnaly went into 1st.
either way the starter and cranking felt bogged down whether clutch depressed or tranny in gear or not. I couldnt tell much difference inthe cranking either way.

 

Spun rotor bearing maybe?. I had a very similar situation just happen to me. I havent had the time to tare her down yet but from how difficult it is to turn one could assume a spun rotor bearing or the front assembly (thrust washer, spacers, etc.) Mine fired up great, than locked up after I shut her down to tweak the timing. After the Pan-Ams I'll take her apart and see whats going on in there. Your better off taken the motor out and doing an inspection rather than damaging it more by trying to turn it over again and again!

 

another part to this is when I shut the engine off, it stops more abruptly than my 12a's but my 12a's are old and this is a fresh rebuild, maybe never really used. when I shut it off it sounds like .....phhhhrrrrattttt. maybe it has great compression and that how it should be.

I am going to turn it by hand today and report what I find

I cant rule out I have 2 issues engine internals and a clutch or clutch hydraulic issue

 

Did you turn the engine at all by hand (or with a ratchet or whatever) before it was mounted in the car? how did it feel?

If the engine *itself* is hard to turn when not attached to the transmission, then you've got a problem internally. Either bearings, lubrication, or possibly a problem in the front cover such as the end play spacer or one of the needle bearings getting crushed (happens if you ever remove the front pulley section without having the clutch depressed or the engine sitting on its flywheel).

At that point, all you can do is tear it open. I'd start with the front cover since there's a lot of stuff in there which can cause problems like this, and if you found problems there you'd be able to address them and reassemble the front cover without tearing into the main "keg", so you wouldn't need a rebuild kit. Just a front cover gasket and whatever parts are damaged.

If it's not in the front cover, you've gotta tear the sucker right down.


Now if the engine turns freely when not attached to the tranny, but is a tough turn when attached to the tranny (and in neutral), then you've got either a tranny or clutch problem. If it's in neutral, that would be more clutch disc and pressure plate (or tranny) problem, if it's fine in neutral but has trouble changing gears, then that sounds like more of a clutch master/slave problem.

At least that's my take on it.

Jon

 

thats excellent jon thanks... I think I have both problems.

as in the above it was recommended earier to take out the 2 leading spark plugs ( lower plugs ) before I turn the engine.

The engine has sat for a long while. I am also thinking about squirting some 10w30 into the spark holes to add some oil before I do this.

I will do this with the tranny in 1st and clutch depressed to see if I can roll the car any with a ratchet on the pulley to size up any draging clutch issues. Or better yet jack up the rear and watch the rear wheels.
Then try it with tranny in neutral.

thanks for everyones help so far.

 

No prob. I hope it turns out to be something simple, or relatively un-costly (needle bearings in the front cover wouldn't be *too* bad, compared to a spun rotor bearing for example)

Jon

 

Start with the clutch problem.

I had one doing about the same cause the slave only half worked. I also had one tight caused by a bad pilot bearing.

 

thanks for everyones input I may not be able to post for a few days I will let you know what I find to be the cause

 

I agree with the pilot bearing, or even with the clutch disk in backwards. For sure get the tranny backed off first and see what's up with the clutch/pilot bearing and also the fork where it pivots on the "ball and socket". Nothing "in" the engine would affect shifting.

 

right about the shifting part, like I said earlier I think I have two separate problems

 

I dont think the clutch can be placed the wrong way and I've seen pilot bearing worn down to a sleeve w/ a few bearings left and the motor spun freely. I still gotta stick with what I stated earlier, spun rotor bearing or front e-shaft assembly as others also mentioned.

 

Any updates? Took my 4port apart and sure enough the e-shaft washer assembly was the culprit. Had pieces of bearing in the oil pan. I know exactly how it happened but didnt really think twice to take off the front cover and recheck that everything was still in place. I tipped the motor forward hitting the ground before the e-shaft pulley was tightened. Lesson learned.

 

HAve you spoken to the engine builder? Is it under warranty?

 

If Hayes had issued a warranty with that 13B, it stayed with the original owner...and a dying transmission does exactly what you described when you you have to start it in 1st gear because it won't go into 1st once the engine is turning. The abrupt stopping seems to suggest your clutch is not completely disengaging, however...any kind of a burnt clutch smell, at all?

Been there, done that on both problems.