RayJNeal

Hey guys and gals I am new to this forum. I am an avid fbody/dsm/yamaha r6 enthusiast. I look forward to the time I'll have with my new RX-7. I am a certified Toyota/Lexus tech so if anyone needs diagnosis assistance with either I'd be glad to help.
I just purchased an 84 gsl from a local dealer here on our strip for 900 bucks with a clean 61k mi chassis. The salesman admitted that they had somehow premixed with 50wt rather than 2cycle oil! It must be premixed as there is no injection system any more.
The vehicle has MSD 6a ignition moduals, full exhaust, fp, fpr, holly carb any various other things to be discovered.

***PROBLEM**
there is a slight smoking of oil coming from the oil fill tube breather filter. Could this possibly be from the 50wt oil mixed in the gasolene? I would not imagine fuel/oil entering the crankcase oil sump without there being blowby.
That being said, is my motor done for? What would you guru's recommend I do? Is their a known good additive I can supplent in place of a quart or so as a staple fix for a while or are new orings an immediate nessesity (sp)?
How can I identify the model yr of my 13b if in fact I do need to order overhaul parts? Does anyone know if I purchased a new engine if it will go in the same the old comes out, or must the setup be modified to fit a first gen? I appreciate any responses I get, thanks guys for taking the time to read this.

-Ray

Kentetsu

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you got a really nice deal on your new 7! A little smoke from the oil fill tube is fairly common with these cars. All I did with mine to reduce that (and also the condensation buildup in the crankcase, which results in what we call "lung mustard") was to run a vacuum line from the nipple on the oil filler tube to the base of the carb. My oil stays fresh a lot longer now than it used to.

Since the car is new to you, I would suggest two things for you to start with (besides the basic tune up items):

1. Seafoam. Add a can to about 1/8 of a tank of gas and take her out for a good run. The apex seals in the rotory engine will develop carbon buildup, which will prevent them from moving as they should. This will result in reduced compression. I do this to mine about every three months, and I always feel an increase in performance within a few minutes of driving.

2. When changing the oil, I always use a quart of Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer in place of a quart of oil. It works wonders...

The only other advice I have right now is, don't fear the redline. Rotories love to rev, and the more you rev them the cleaner the engine will stay. I will usually redline my engine about 6 or 8 times a day.

Good luck with your new obsession!

RayJNeal

Thanks for the reply. The aftermarket temperature gauge did peg at NO MORE than 200 degrees while fixing the efan and doing a warmup idle test this afternoon for no more than a minute at max. I am the worry type and wonder if this could have harmed seals which are causing the slight smoking from the breather. 200 is not good, but under normal circumstances will it kill these engines after one occurance?
Can this smoking be due to engine oil, rather than 2 cycle being mixed in with the fuel by their "technician"? I am trying to figure out if this smoking is need for concern..and if i can make the 60 mile journey home with it.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

if the breather is smoking that means you're getting a huge amount if blowby.

RayJNeal

So what is your diagnosis of the rotary motor?

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Welcome to the forum and the Darkside.

200* should not be a problem for the short while you had it at that temp. That said, they do not tolerate overheating like piston engines do. One good overheating and you will be tearing down for a rebuild.

As far as pre-mixing, 1 oz/gal of fuel of a TC3W rated 2-cycle oil will suffice. To identify the engine, post pics, of the top, plug side and exhaust side. since the GSL model came with a 12A, which 13B you have could be a 74-78, and 84-85 or an 86-91. Each series has slight variations.

Regarding the blowby, it is usually due to worn oil control o-rings and/or thier steel carriers. Try the Lucas, it usually helps even engines that have moderate smoke. Worn oil control o-rings show up the most during initial cold start up and when decellerating from high rpms.

For your reading pleasure, in my sig line is a link to the online FSMs, carb manual and other reading material.

Sounds like you got a hell of a deal on the car, posting pics is a must for the 'newbs'.

RayJNeal

Thanks for the info. Just so we are on the same page the smoke is from the breather filter ontop the oil filler cap. I am not a huge fan of additives, however, you both claim that Lucas should get me by for a little fun before a rebuild. Without tearing it down to know for sure, what Would most likely need replacing? A cheap seal rebuild, or are apex's usually neccessary? Is machining usually common practice, or is worpage more common than scoring? I will get pics of the motor this weekend. I would like to get one just to have it laying around. Thanks for all of the help fellas.

-Ray

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

The Lucas has proven itself to many members here, otherwise I would not recommend it and I'm not a fan of additives either. The Lucas will help the rubber oil control o-rings seal better. They are the barrier between the combustion chamber and sump/crankcase. changeing oil and filter every 3k miles is the best preventitive measure one can do.

As far as rebuilding, hard parts needed are generally not known until teardown and inspection. Machining is generally limited to lapping the irons if out of spec. Not many places do lapping and it's often easier to find another set of irons in spec. Housings are not machined. If worn, scored, warped or flaking, you have a door stop.

RayJNeal

Thanks guys. I have read on the different engines with different generations, however there is still confusion. The service manual for first gens have info for 13b engines. Is it possible I have a car with a 13b from the factory, or would it have to have been swapped? If I give the VIN out would anyone have access to Mazda's database? Maybe a Mazda tech on here? Thanks guys.

-Ray

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Vin won't tell you dodo. The GSL-SEs came with a fuel injected 13B. With the mods that have been done to your's, it's hard to tell without pics.

twinkletoes

iTrader: (17)

If I were you I would check out the lucas oil and not buy a rebuild kit till you know what you need, inspect the engine inside. I wouldn't also get an extra engine jsut there to sit as it will build up carbon and be tougher to to clean up and the seals will go bad if you let it sit long enough. You don't have a factory 13b enigne unless somebody swapped it in. The GSL=SE is the only 1st gen that had the 13b EFI stock. If yours is carb'd chances are its 12a, look on the rotor housings on the engine, it will tell you.

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Toes, you are wrong on so many parts of your post I'm not sure where to start. Carbon cannot build up on a non-running engine, where would it come from, pixie dust? Do you know how to inspect an engine internally?

Since the thread starter is a line mechanic, I think he knows which engine he has, and he has asked questions in such a manner that he does know.

RayJNeal

Yes the engine casing does say 13b or I would not have said it is a 13b. What im trying to determine is exactly which it is for when parts must be ordered for it. On another note:
It seems me smoking is caused by the oil control ring which someone mentioned, makes sense. Seems to me that this ring is very similar to the valve stem seals in a "boinger" engine. If this is the case the smoke is more irritating than an actual problem, so an overhaul would not be neccessary would it? I still want to know if this oil coming from the breather could be because THERE IS 50WT ENGINE OIL MIXED WITH MY GASOLENE IN THE TANK!! I will try to get 1.3megpixle pics today on my cellphone. Thanks all.

-Ray

sgieldon

That' Funny!
Carbon Build Up on a Non Running Engine???
I needed a Good Laugh this Morning.
You Beat me to it Mr. T
sgieldon
steve

RayJNeal

This information came right off of Atkins:

Year Model List Upgraded Parts Core & Crate Charge
79-80 12A 1600.00 Call 250.00
81-82 12A 1600.00 2400* 250.00
83-85 12A 1600.00 2400* 250.00
84-85 GSL-SE 13B 1700.00 2500* 450.00
86-88 N/A 13B 1700.00 2650* 450.00
87-88 Turbo 13B Turbo 2100.00 3250** 550.00
89-91 N/A 13B 2100.00 2850* 550.00
89-91 Turbo 13B Turbo 2200.00 3350** 550.00
93-95 13B 2600.00 4900*** 900.00


They are saying the 84 GSL, which I have, has a 13b in it. If thats the case then I was wrong there was never a motor swap performed. Anyone else know of 84 gsl's with 13b's in them? Thanks.

-Ray

RayJNeal

Uhh, sorry guys I realize I have a GSL and not the GSL-SE. From that information they say the 1st gen 13b is EFI. Mine is carb. Someone definantly did some rigging. Hopefully it can be easily figured out when it has got to be torn down. Part of me doesn't like workin on somoene else's modifications.
However, I will get some pics of the engine soon here for you guys so my engine can be identified for future parts refrence.

-Ray

PercentSevenC

If it has a carb it's probably a '74-'78 4-port 13B, as those are common swaps. But we'll need pics to tell for sure.

sgieldon

Someone on this Board recently Posted some good idea's what to go through and Check or Replace when you 1st by any RX-7.
There are some Basic Stuff and some Mandatory items you should do. You being a mechanic will be very helpful in learning these Beauts.
If your sure the Oil Metering Pump has been removed then just go the Quality 2cycle= 1oz per Gal of Gas way.
If you can add the Oil before you fill up it will mix up very well.
16 Gal Tank 16oz of Oil. I usually figure about and Oz shy and just add the difference after fill up if needed. You don't have to be exactly on the measurement. After a few fill ups you'll have it down to Rocket Science. Keep an eye on where the Gas Gauge reads @ fillup and how many Gals of Gas is needed. Plus you'll know how accurate the Gauge is.
I use Redline Synthetic Smokeless 2cycle Oil.
But any Decent TCW3 Rated Oil will work just fine.
Your Smoking issue should go away after a couple Tanks of Gas.
Just run her dry as posible, but don't forget to add the 2cycle oil in the mean time.
You really got a great deal and Welcome to the Forum.

Just an FYI- trochoid as well as others here are very seasoned in 1st Gens! After a short time you will figure out who the Guru's are.
sgieldon
steve

RayJNeal

Well with 7k posts I get the notion he knows a thing or two . Thanks for the info. I ran it down empty and added the 2cycle and the breather is no longer smoking, or atleast not visibly. I am thinking the oil control seals are not going out then, which I am somewhat glad as I got two other vehicles awaiting motor transplants. Has anyone ever ran engine oil in the gas and noticed the smoke I am talking of?
I got pictures on my cell of the top and two sides of the motor. If it is a 70's era 13b, where can I locate maintnance parts for it? Are they hard motors to come by?
Is it a possibility to have a 2nd gen 13b with the fuel injected intake manifold removed and replaced with the one on mine along with the carb?
Lastly, for the previous owner to perform the swap what would he have had to do. From what I have heard it is commonplace to drop the front subframe and mount it 10mm further forward. Remount the front crossmember/subframe and mount the engine 10mm rearward on that. I am just trying to figure out what is done with my vehicle. Thanks a mil fellas. Anyone with a toyota/lexus/scion/lotus who needs dealer specific info, just let me know.

-Ray

RayJNeal

Here are the pictures, fellas. If I ever found another 70's era engine, will the mount points be the same, or did he utilize a front cover from a different engine? Here I am, ASE master/Toyota master certified asking all these questions. Like I say every single day is a learning experience. The day you stop learning in this field is the day you are out of a job! Cheers.

-Ray

Siraniko

iTrader: (13)

no its not an old school 13-B. thats a 86+ 6port block with holley.

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Yeppers

lupin

iTrader: (3)

It looks like you have a old 12a(or 13b) front cover with old style crank angle sensor with the distributor cap, the later models have a cas with no distributor.

welcome and goodluck with everything

edit: you might want to get a dual alternator pulley or the pineapple racing alternator relocation kit. Usually when the second gen 13b airpump is removed there is not enough contact onto the water pump and can cause slipping at high rpms.

RayJNeal

Thanks guys. So it's confirmed, it is a 86+ 13b. He simply removed the intake mani/fuel rail assembly and replaced it with the carb assembly? That's good, easier to find parts than the old 70's ones. You guys are really good, best forum I've belonged to as far as help. I have researched, but if possible could you people tell me what was changed in order to fit this motor? Is it a different front case in order to mount the motor to the crossmember? What did he change as far as electrical in order to make this fit and work? It's distrutor/carb so it is pretty much self contained. Is the crank sensor in direct communication to the dist., since there is no modern-day PCM? Thanks guys. I feel like an *** asking so many questions due to my tehnical status!

-Ray

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Basiclly, what the po did was swap an SE (1st gen 13B) front cover and oil pan onto a 2nd gen block, then installed the stock 1st gen ignition system and an after market carb/intake, along with a fuel pump upgrade and fpr. Simple. There are better carb choices, imho, but the intake selection for 2nd gen engines is limited.

Just realized, the po may have used a 12A front cover. Since the engine is carbed and using pre-mix, no need for the SE front cover.