Ok fellas I am about 2 weeks away from getting my motor rebuilt and streetported by Kevin Landers of www.rotaryresurrection.com amd I need some opinions/suggestions. This is my only car so I need some drivability although I dont have to do a whole lot of commuting in it.

1984 RX-7 GSL-SE 193XXX miles
This is what I have on my car:
Racing Beat Streetport Exhaust
Drop in K&N with lid removed
Mariah Headlight Scoop

This is whats going in my car:
S5 high comp rotors
Racing Beat clutch and pressure plate
Most likely a Racing Beat Aluminum Flywheel (still needs to be bought)
2nd gen upper intake manifold
Efan, No AC
And I am going to get it streetported but which one

If you look on Kevins webpage www.rotaryresurrection.com under engines/streetporting he is doing 6 port motors with "monster ports" as Ive heard them called which combine the secondary ports with the primary ports, this also eliminates the actuators.

Effectively making little low end power but from what I've heard pull really hard from about 4k on up.
I would only be going to 8k because of the stock compnents and tach.
What I am worried about is daily drivability and am wondering if should just do a regular streetport, or have them combined in this monster port.

Also I would like some suggestions on Fuel Pump and if I need to upgrade mine or what.

Any comments/ suggestions on anything are welcome.
Thanks
Greg

 

I'd compare the 6 port monstor ports to a VERY large 4 port streetport, or a small/mild bridge. Drivability depends on who's driving, I think that port is about perfect for the street, but some might think it's a bit too large. For the fuel pump, I have no idea. I hate the -SE fuel injection and have never done much work with it. You might also need slightly larger injectors.

 

The stock ECU is probably not gonna like it and the injector issue will have to be adressed.Running the 2nd gen upper will allow you to switch to a 4 injector,staged system,but youll have to switch to the 2nd gen ECU to control the secondaries.That means essentially switching to a complete FC engine system(CAS,ECU,coils,ect)
The alternative is to keep the SE 680cc primaries and the SE computor,and run the secondary injectors with an AIC like a Rebic II.
Im still not sure how the EFI is gonna like all the overlap and extra port timing,not to mention the bump in compression.Could really throw it into a fit,as well as max out the AFM since the engine will be injesting much more air.SE injection is pretty archaic by modern standards.

If the SE pumps are built to the same quality standard as the 12A car's pump,then they suck and should be upgraded.You can run an aftermarket external EFI pump or switch to an intank pump like I did.The intank requires a bit of fabrication,but its super reliable,quiet and Im able to run a drop in,400+HP capable SupraTT pump in the stock FC pump holder.

 

any valid reasons w/ that statement?

 

More air injested by bigger ports = more fuel needed to maintain proper AF ratios.

Increasing fuel pressure helps to a degree,until the added pressure hinders the injectors ability to open and deliver fuel.Increasing the injectors volume output is easier,but SE engines already have big injectors(680cc) so getting it leaned at idle would be tough.Thats why Mazda switched to 4 staged 460cc injectors on the FC.Nice and lean idle and cruise fuel delivery,but 1800cc worth of potential fuel delivery under full power.Unfortunately the SE ECU is made to handle only 2 injectors, with no staging.

 

I feel the same way about the stock TII ecu too. They are fine for stock engines. But once you start modding they are garbage, especially the TII ecu. The injectors I'm not exactly sure about, I don't know what duty cycle they run at stock, so I can't tell you how much more power you could make before you need to upgrade.

 

I will just be running the stock ecu and flow tested injectors.

That was the only other thing I am worried about with the stock ecu
A) getting fuel
B) the AFM will be the bottle neck but from what I have read it will still work just not optimally

 

I have to disagree about the TII ECU.
Yes they arent great,especially if you compare it to a Haltech.The cant even compete with a standalone......But if your carful about component selection,you can make good HP with one.Im still using the stock S5 ECU,AFM and sensors and Ive been putting down 300HP for years on 14psi with a TO4B hybrid turbo and front mount IC.Never missed a beat,pinged or hesitated.The key is matching injector size to airflow requirements.I installed 800cc secondaries to replace the stock 550cc secondaries.The 40% increase in fuel delivery matches the 40% increase in airflow that my larger turbo and streetport S5 block takes in.The ECU doesnt know there has been an increase in fuel delivery,so it maintains normal injector pulsewidth,about 85% max on the secondaries.So long as the boost goes up to 14psi like the AVCr tells it to(which it always does),the air/fuel mix is still correct.Off boost,it passes smog,idles and putteres around like a stock car and gets good milage.Under boost its behaving just like the factory intended it too,except theres more air and more fuel going in.No fuel controllers or piggyback computors lying to the ECU or altering input signals.

The limiting factor with the SE computor is the inability of the ECU to activate secondary injectors for topend running.Increasing the output of the 2 primary injectors will increase fuel delivery,but make lowspeed mixtures way rich.An Additional Injector Controller will activate secondaries independantly of the SE computor.It would just be a matter of selecting the proper size secondary injectors to match the airflow increase,and them plumbing up the injectors and wiring them.

Or switch to a 2nd gen, 4 injecotor ECU.

 

You're lucky then. I've had 2 friends blow their motors with bigger injectors and stock turbos. But both of them used the fuel cut defensor, which is completely worthless and just makes it more likely you'll kill your engine.

 

FCD alters boost sensor signal past 8psi,which seems like a bad thing,but all the boost sensor changes is timing advance during boost rise,not fuel delivery.The only timing retard employed on the TII is from the knock sensor.If you dont get overboard with the base timing(or even retard it a little) you should be OK with a FCD,provided the rest of the setup is sound and tuned.I have run an FCD for years with stock base timing,and never pinged once .The AFM controls the fuel delivery for the most part.So long as you dont overun that or the fuel pump,your mixture shouldnt suffer.

If your buddies engines were running enough boost to need bigger injectors,but they were still running stock turbos,then they probably blew from detonation caused by overheated intake air.The stock turbos will cavitate badly above 10psi,heating the air drastically.I read nearly 200* intake temps when running the stock turbo and IC after only one 13 second run.My TO4 and Spearco FMIC keep intake temps well below 120* no matter how much boost I feed the engine.

I havent raced for years but back when I was running 13s it was with a stock S4 engine and ECU,and stock S5 turbo/IC.That motor never pinged or blew up,but I could only romp on it for a short time before intake temps got ridicolous.An intake temp gauge is a MUST for modified turbo engines.....

 

Does anyone know where I could get slightly larger injectors for my SE, somewhere maybe in the 800cc range?

 

After visiting that website, I wouldn't let him touch my car. He doesn't know very much about properly porting a rotary.

 

Should be pretty easy to source some injectors for an SE since they are low impedance.Just need to match up the physical size and plug type.720's are common,but no much bigger than what you got now.That might be enough though, since your not boosting or anything.
Easiest would be to find someone selling Jspec 12AT injectors.Theyre 800cc and a drop in replacement.


High impedence injectors are a pain.Its rare to find them bigger than 550cc.I had RC Engineering make 2 of my S5 550's into 800's,but it cost me $$.

 

Any other info or reasons to say this?
I am asking b/c I have read posts of yours before and you seem to know what you are talking about, that and you have a high post count.

Thanks
Greg

 

There will be people here that agree and disagree with me but I'll tell you my thoughts and let you decide from there.

He seems like one of those guys who thinks a bigger port is a better port. Unfortunately many people on this forum feel the same way. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Look at the picture where he only ported the auxillary port. It is huge. This is worthless! Here's why. Look down that intake runner and tell me how much flow you think it will have. If you measure it's diameter, it is just a little over 1 inch across. That is nothing. Now we add the rotating sleeve which takes up a little area on the outsides. Don't forget about the shaft down the center ot the manifold that rotates the sleeve as well as the crossbar on the sleeve this attaches to. these reduce the area considerably. More importantly they disrupt airflow. There isn't a whole lot of airflow through this upper port however if you close it off you will notice that there is a lack of high end power. It definitely does something. There is something else that is overcoming these difficiencies to cause this port to flow a little better. I'll get to it later after I explain the problem with the second type of porting he does.

The other port is a very large street port which he does by cutting the secondary and auxillary ports into one giant port. Again this isn't a good idea. I still can't believe that anyone tries this. It never works that good and only hurts in other areas. It can be made to work on a race engine but shouldn't be considered for any street use. It is still something you will see people on this forum try over and over again. The reason why this isn't a good idea goes back to what I mentioned above about being a secondary effect on the upper port.

When air flows through the intake runners, it starts and stops as the rotors open and close past the ports. When the port opens, the air speeds up. Air has mass and this mass has inertia. As the port starts to close, this inertia helps force more air through the smaller available port opening that the rotor is beginning to cover. As the rotor closes the bottom ports on the outside 6 port housings, there is still open area in the form of the upper auxillary ports. When the bottom ports are closed the air that is still moving through the intake manifold can no longer travel into the bottom port. All of this air is forced into the top runner and rammed into the auxillary port. The air has no choice but to go there. When people hog out these ports into one large port, they are losing intake velocity just as the port is closing. The air in the bottom runner will never stop moving since it can bleed into the upper part of the now large port. Because of this the remaining mass of air is not forced into the upper port runner and is consequently not being forced into the engine. This nice large port may look great on a flowbench but it isn't making any more power in the usable rpm range. It will make great power up top and beyond redline though. Too bad you can't use it here.

When you only port the auxillary ports really large, you are increasing port timing at the expense of port velocity. The air will drastically slow down right as it is entering the engine throught this large port and will consequently not fill the chamber as good. When air is sped up and slowed down, it loses a little bit of usable energy. The key is to maintain this flow and it's energy.

Another thing to consider is that you are probably going to be using the stock intake manifold and ecu. The stock manifold flows fine for stock ported or what I define as mildly streetported engines but is worthless for very large streetports or bridgeports. When you have a large port such as one giant one hogged out of both side ports, you are losing intake velocity through the intake. The area of the port is much larger than the area of the intake runners. As the air hits this port, it slows down. Remember that velocity is the key to making power, not size. Size is only important after velocity is maxed out. A large port also wants a better flowing manifold. The long runners of the stock manifold aren't helping you here. The large port timing also dictates the use of shorter manifolds to maintain proper rpm tuning. There are alot of things to consider. That guy has only worked on rotaries for 5 years. That is alot to some people so what does he know that Racing Beat at 30+ years of experience don't know? Probably nothing. He obviously hasn't learned that large ports don't always help you.

The reason why you don't see the big names in the industry doing big ports on the 6 port engines isn't because they can't physically be cut into the housings. They obviously can. They just don't see any benefit of going much bigger. Notice you will never see a dyno chart for one of these large types of port jobs. They don't make more power. At least not where you need it. It has been said before on here by others, there is a reason why you don't see certain mods done. It isn't because they are new or someone just thought of them. Almost anything you can think of was probably tried very early on. If you don't see them now, they probably didn't work very well then.

I have a streetported GSL-SE that I built. PM me for more info on it and what really works good on that car. I've got a couple of little tricks that'll help you get what you want. If you want miracles though, you'll need forced induction.

 

Wow long and very informative post.

BTW sent PM

 

HadaGSL-SE,

Well, let see here. I have a 85 GSL-SE with 350 miles on a Kevin Landers rebuild.
My car has the following done to it while at kevins shop.

85 GSL-SE car
Series 4 rotors and housings
Mild Streetport
GSL-SE front cover and oil pan
Series 4 intake
K&N cone filter
RB lightweight flywheel (Series 4 NA)
Centerforce clutch
All Emission stuff removed
Full RB streeport exhaust
Rebuilt Injectors from RC Eng. (Flowing 703 and 704)
Radiator was dipped and cleaned
New 160 thermostat

The only thing I don't care for is;

The cruise is not hooked up (due to a different intake)
And the motor no longer has the 2k warm up when it is first started in the mornings.

The good thing about the warm up being gone is that I start it and let it idle for about 5 mins, that way I know she is warm and ready. One time I did not wait and it stalled twice while coming up to a red light.

Over all it has been a good setup. I would like to step up to some 820 cc injectors and maybe run a megasquirt computer so I can get rid of the GSL-SE mass air meter.

Hope this helps.

 

Since no one else wants to give you an answer on the pump, then here goes. If you stay EFI go with a carter 195 lph pump, you can go bigger if you like, a 255 lph pump will also work. The psi shut off on the 255 is 95, and yes the regulator will handle it. Either way, both are good. And to those who will tell you get a Walbro pump......Ha, Walbro IS a Carter.