Is the SA/FB a true sports car?
02-06-06, 01:49 AM
#27
Too old to act my age
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Just wait a few years. The rotary engine will see life from more manufacturers, as it is better suited for certain alternative fuels. Low MPG compared to similar displacement/HP piston engines led to the demise of most manufacters development of the rotary.
Mazda was too stubborn, and had too much invested in the rotary, to drop it.
*disclaimer: The above is my opinion. As such, it may or may not agree with yours. Big deal.
EDIT: Yes, the SA/FB is a true sports car, for the time period in which it was built.
Mazda was too stubborn, and had too much invested in the rotary, to drop it.
*disclaimer: The above is my opinion. As such, it may or may not agree with yours. Big deal.
EDIT: Yes, the SA/FB is a true sports car, for the time period in which it was built.
Last edited by Rogue_Wulff; 02-06-06 at 01:54 AM.
02-06-06, 02:06 AM
#28
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Communism only works when it squashes and oppresses all alternatives and holds power with an iron grasp, not allowing any competition.
HHMMMMM... BTW did you forget the Soviet Union fell?
Anyway, people have reported 30 mpg from EFI v8s in the other generation cars too. It all boils down to how light the rx7 is and how little effort the v8 has to put out to make it go at highway speeds.
The reason rotaries burn more gas is because of their thermodynamic ineffiicency - this leads to a higher BSFC, or fuel/time/horsepower. Rotaries are NOT efficeint motors, the reason theyre competitive is that theyre simply huffing a ton of air. Oh, and they need more air/time to make the same horsepower as a piston engine.
Dont agree or believe me? Look it up yourself.
Ill admit the rotary does have its place with enthusiasts, but its not some mystical thing. Its a engine madza made based off of a design Felix Wankel came up with. Sure its interesting, unique, arguably fun, and for the uses of racing it has some advantages. But, as far as street cars go, Honda has proven a piston motor of the same equivilant displacement (well, actually less if you go F20C vs Renesis...) will out perform it and get better fuel economy.
The laws of physics are a bitch. If mazda ever makes a rotary without a lame bathtub combustion chamber, say, by making rotor wider along the axis of the e-shaft and smaller along the radius perpendicular to the axis of the e-shaft, we might see efficiency go up and make it more competetive.
Also, its only a "1.2" or "1.3" liter engine if you just believe what mazda says blindly. Assuming 100%VE, both move twice the amount of air they should be able to according to what mazda says - its only an issue of semantics (and an INANE one at that) that its acutally the displacement mazda said it is, or that "rotary displacement" is somehow different. A 13b and a 2.6 Liter engine move the same amount of air if they rotate at the same RPM.
HHMMMMM... BTW did you forget the Soviet Union fell?
Anyway, people have reported 30 mpg from EFI v8s in the other generation cars too. It all boils down to how light the rx7 is and how little effort the v8 has to put out to make it go at highway speeds.
The reason rotaries burn more gas is because of their thermodynamic ineffiicency - this leads to a higher BSFC, or fuel/time/horsepower. Rotaries are NOT efficeint motors, the reason theyre competitive is that theyre simply huffing a ton of air. Oh, and they need more air/time to make the same horsepower as a piston engine.
Dont agree or believe me? Look it up yourself.
Ill admit the rotary does have its place with enthusiasts, but its not some mystical thing. Its a engine madza made based off of a design Felix Wankel came up with. Sure its interesting, unique, arguably fun, and for the uses of racing it has some advantages. But, as far as street cars go, Honda has proven a piston motor of the same equivilant displacement (well, actually less if you go F20C vs Renesis...) will out perform it and get better fuel economy.
The laws of physics are a bitch. If mazda ever makes a rotary without a lame bathtub combustion chamber, say, by making rotor wider along the axis of the e-shaft and smaller along the radius perpendicular to the axis of the e-shaft, we might see efficiency go up and make it more competetive.
Also, its only a "1.2" or "1.3" liter engine if you just believe what mazda says blindly. Assuming 100%VE, both move twice the amount of air they should be able to according to what mazda says - its only an issue of semantics (and an INANE one at that) that its acutally the displacement mazda said it is, or that "rotary displacement" is somehow different. A 13b and a 2.6 Liter engine move the same amount of air if they rotate at the same RPM.
02-06-06, 02:24 AM
#29
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well, if it's true that a piston engine is more efficient and will out perform a rotary, why is it that I've raced over 10 races last year (1/4 mile) and the only thing that beat me was a F-body with probadly 400+ hp, I know the fuel economy isn't too great or it's not perfect, or anywhere close to, but if I can keep stomping cars with several times the displacement with my rex, I'm always gonna love my 13B powered 1st gen!
02-06-06, 02:38 AM
#30
Originally Posted by Tatterjuice_771
but name another mass produce rotary powered car
The old definition of a sports car, (50's-60's) had one defining feature that most don't have now. The Miata is one of the few that still falls into the parameters. Coupes were not sports cars. Sport cars were convertables or topless. 4 wheel drives back then were the Dodge Powerwagon, but mom would not be caught dead taking the kids to school in what was one of the forerunners of today's suv's.
As consumers desires and preferences change, so do the vehicles produced, to the point that strict definition and usage becomes blurred. Vehicles now days must meet a number of cross puposes. Take for example the Porsche Cayenne. Definately an suv, handles like a sports car and has 450 hp, which until recently would put it at a higher hp rating than most any super car produced.
If you take the origina VW bug and compare it with the Karman Ghia, the bug was a sedan, the Ghia was the sports car. The odd part is, it was easier to set up a bug to out handle the Ghia, because it had too much flex in the unibody, on the vert models, to make it a corner carver. A 150 hp bug would keep up with my 300+ hp Road Runner from 0-60, and the bug would smoke me off the line everytime. In fact a stock bug could beat almost any car out there, from a standing start, to at least across the street.
Whether I was driving one of my old bugs, or very early Civics, I at least felt sporty, with all of the big iron lumbering around the streets back in those days.
02-06-06, 07:59 AM
#33
The Rotorheaded Geek
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I think the fb holds the essence of a sports car; light, nimble, and quick (not fast but quick). They can fly around corners and you can just have a ball out driving all day and the amount of feedback they give you because you are in complete control. Now my friends tell me she is just an oversized street legal go-kart (I think it is because none of them can keep up w/ her in the corners).
02-06-06, 08:59 AM
#34
ROTARD FOR LIFE!!!
IMO, A sports car is this... something that you can jump into, drive to work in. and after a long hard day of work and putting up with your Bosses, go the long, way home with lots of turns... and free yourself from the chains of life... A sports car should be able to give good performance on the road and track, the RX7 has been one of those cars that were able to provide that performance.
IMO, a sports car isn’t something that even has to be a track car, RWD or even two seated... Just a car you can enjoy...(you wouldn’t say the BNR32 or its linage wasn’t a sports car would you?) I think most of those people that wanted the FBs didn’t care if you could race it. They just wanted to enjoy it because it looked cool, was different and looked like it could give allot of thrill (which I don’t think it has displeased us…)
The stock SA/FB was the Pinnacle of the True Sports Cars... Simplicity and Performance. 2nd and 3rd gens too. They didn’t need an Ungodly amount of power to thrill and they all kept there RWD 2 seated rotary layout, just improving performance levels on the last Mazda RX-7 Has always meant sports car Because it was the most basic, and for the most part could produce that "Drive" that was like no other. Anyone, whom says that the SA/FB isn’t a sports car line, really doesn’t know much about cars then do they?
Yes the SA/FB RX7 is a sports car… It’s the Sports Car… Its my Sports Car…
IMO, a sports car isn’t something that even has to be a track car, RWD or even two seated... Just a car you can enjoy...(you wouldn’t say the BNR32 or its linage wasn’t a sports car would you?) I think most of those people that wanted the FBs didn’t care if you could race it. They just wanted to enjoy it because it looked cool, was different and looked like it could give allot of thrill (which I don’t think it has displeased us…)
The stock SA/FB was the Pinnacle of the True Sports Cars... Simplicity and Performance. 2nd and 3rd gens too. They didn’t need an Ungodly amount of power to thrill and they all kept there RWD 2 seated rotary layout, just improving performance levels on the last Mazda RX-7 Has always meant sports car Because it was the most basic, and for the most part could produce that "Drive" that was like no other. Anyone, whom says that the SA/FB isn’t a sports car line, really doesn’t know much about cars then do they?
Yes the SA/FB RX7 is a sports car… It’s the Sports Car… Its my Sports Car…
02-06-06, 09:53 AM
#35
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally Posted by Tatterjuice_771
well, if it's true that a piston engine is more efficient and will out perform a rotary, why is it that I've raced over 10 races last year (1/4 mile) and the only thing that beat me was a F-body with probadly 400+ hp, I know the fuel economy isn't too great or it's not perfect, or anywhere close to, but if I can keep stomping cars with several times the displacement with my rex, I'm always gonna love my 13B powered 1st gen!
Dan
02-06-06, 10:05 AM
#36
Originally Posted by MrFC3S
IMO, A sports car is this... something that you can jump into, drive to work in. and after a long hard day of work and putting up with your Bosses, go the long, way home with lots of turns... and free yourself from the chains of life... A sports car should be able to give good performance on the road and track, the RX7 has been one of those cars that were able to provide that performance.
IMO, a sports car isn’t something that even has to be a track car, RWD or even two seated... Just a car you can enjoy...(you wouldn’t say the BNR32 or its linage wasn’t a sports car would you?) I think most of those people that wanted the FBs didn’t care if you could race it. They just wanted to enjoy it because it looked cool, was different and looked like it could give allot of thrill (which I don’t think it has displeased us…)
The stock SA/FB was the Pinnacle of the True Sports Cars... Simplicity and Performance. 2nd and 3rd gens too. They didn’t need an Ungodly amount of power to thrill and they all kept there RWD 2 seated rotary layout, just improving performance levels on the last Mazda RX-7 Has always meant sports car Because it was the most basic, and for the most part could produce that "Drive" that was like no other. Anyone, whom says that the SA/FB isn’t a sports car line, really doesn’t know much about cars then do they?
Yes the SA/FB RX7 is a sports car… It’s the Sports Car… Its my Sports Car…
IMO, a sports car isn’t something that even has to be a track car, RWD or even two seated... Just a car you can enjoy...(you wouldn’t say the BNR32 or its linage wasn’t a sports car would you?) I think most of those people that wanted the FBs didn’t care if you could race it. They just wanted to enjoy it because it looked cool, was different and looked like it could give allot of thrill (which I don’t think it has displeased us…)
The stock SA/FB was the Pinnacle of the True Sports Cars... Simplicity and Performance. 2nd and 3rd gens too. They didn’t need an Ungodly amount of power to thrill and they all kept there RWD 2 seated rotary layout, just improving performance levels on the last Mazda RX-7 Has always meant sports car Because it was the most basic, and for the most part could produce that "Drive" that was like no other. Anyone, whom says that the SA/FB isn’t a sports car line, really doesn’t know much about cars then do they?
Yes the SA/FB RX7 is a sports car… It’s the Sports Car… Its my Sports Car…
GOOD POST
02-06-06, 01:12 PM
#38
Originally Posted by Tatterjuice_771
well, if it's true that a piston engine is more efficient and will out perform a rotary, why is it that I've raced over 10 races last year (1/4 mile) and the only thing that beat me was a F-body with probadly 400+ hp, I know the fuel economy isn't too great or it's not perfect, or anywhere close to, but if I can keep stomping cars with several times the displacement with my rex, I'm always gonna love my 13B powered 1st gen!
02-06-06, 01:24 PM
#39
An Rx-7 is a sports car in its own right, there is no need to make comparisons. And yes by todays stadards it is below average for a sports car, but if you believe it always been like that, you are an idiot. The Rx-7 was very impressive, it made car and drivers ten best list five times. Not many cars get there without being impressive, and very few cars make the list five times.
Any of you who dont believe this, you my friend are wallowing in ignorance.
Any of you who dont believe this, you my friend are wallowing in ignorance.
02-06-06, 02:51 PM
#40
ROTARD FOR LIFE!!!
Ok Thats It!!! Ive Had Enough Of This, The Next Person That Mentions V8 Swaps Good Or Bad I Swear I Will Kick Them Dead In The Nuts.... Im Sick And Tired Of Hearing About It!!! This Is A Decent Thread And You Guys Are ******* It Up With Your Usless Fighting About Piston Vs Rotary, The Piston Engine Is A Good Engine And So Is The Rotary, The Thread Post Was About The First Gen Being A Sports Car, Not What Engine Will Dictate The Size Of My Dick.... If You Guy's Want To Fight It Out, Go Make A Thread About It, Then Whine About Whos ***** Hurts The Most...
Yes, There Are Advantages And Disadvantages To Both, But Its Off Topic...
Rotary Guys, Stop Putting There Ideas Down And Let Them Ruin There Cars,
Piston Guys, Stop Whining And Let The Rotary Guys Walk Around In Ignorance....
It's Done... Leave It Alone...
Yes, There Are Advantages And Disadvantages To Both, But Its Off Topic...
Rotary Guys, Stop Putting There Ideas Down And Let Them Ruin There Cars,
Piston Guys, Stop Whining And Let The Rotary Guys Walk Around In Ignorance....
It's Done... Leave It Alone...
Last edited by MrFC3S; 02-06-06 at 02:54 PM.
02-06-06, 02:59 PM
#41
ROTARD FOR LIFE!!!
Originally Posted by Onlyonthurs
GOOD POST
02-06-06, 02:59 PM
#42
Apprentice Guru
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[QUOTE=LokiRx7.1]An Rx-7 is a sports car in its own right, there is no need to make comparisons. And yes by todays stadards it is below average for a sports car, QUOTE]
While as stock the RX-7 may be down on performance, due to its light weight with a few upgrades it can still hold its own. For example, mine is a relatively stock 85 including an unmodified 12AT engine. As replacements become due its easy to use better parts for such items as shocks and ecu. With a FMIC and a safe 12psi it's a 12-13 second car, plus I get 25mpg and good handling. A true up to date real sports car. In fact I prefer it to a 350Z as a daily driver.
While as stock the RX-7 may be down on performance, due to its light weight with a few upgrades it can still hold its own. For example, mine is a relatively stock 85 including an unmodified 12AT engine. As replacements become due its easy to use better parts for such items as shocks and ecu. With a FMIC and a safe 12psi it's a 12-13 second car, plus I get 25mpg and good handling. A true up to date real sports car. In fact I prefer it to a 350Z as a daily driver.
02-06-06, 03:01 PM
#43
The first corvette concept was a rotary. Chevy makes the corvette. The covette now is bad ***. So mazda just trtied something others might have been afraid of. Different isnt a bad thing after all we all own a 20 yr old car. If that isnt different throw in there it has a rotary too.
02-06-06, 04:08 PM
#46
rotaryenginepete
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Rotary Corvette
Originally Posted by brandon davis
The first Corvette concept was not a rotary, but GM did explore the idea. Being the auto enthusiast I am, about 8 years ago I visited the museum and saw the engine. Its pretty sweet and unofficially produced a little over 300hp.
02-06-06, 04:30 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Lt. Dan
Sounds like you AND your fellow drag racers just can't drive...
Dan
Dan
02-06-06, 04:32 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by Tatterjuice_771
I will be more than glad to prove you wrong ANY day of the week, i'm always willing to put my money where my mouth is become I got the ***** and enough car to prove it....
02-06-06, 04:49 PM
#50
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Like so many others, unfortunately this thread was started by another stupid question. It spawned some good conversation and history, but was ultimately hijacked by FUCKTARDS arguing over pistons vs. rotary, which escalated into personal threats and challenges.
I've seen this so often over the last few years , it makes visits to this site a CLUSTERFUCK to fight through for actual useful information. So many people are busy shouting and typing away at thier screens in anger over a subject that will no further anything in thier lives, that they've cluttered the real purpose for this site and others like it.
This is a place for sharing information, findings, and relating of all things RX-7. Yes it is also a place of debate, but it is not a place to flame everything/person in sight. Please stop cluttering the forum, it really ruins the experience for people who are using it for productivity, enthusiasm, and entertainment.
I've seen this so often over the last few years , it makes visits to this site a CLUSTERFUCK to fight through for actual useful information. So many people are busy shouting and typing away at thier screens in anger over a subject that will no further anything in thier lives, that they've cluttered the real purpose for this site and others like it.
This is a place for sharing information, findings, and relating of all things RX-7. Yes it is also a place of debate, but it is not a place to flame everything/person in sight. Please stop cluttering the forum, it really ruins the experience for people who are using it for productivity, enthusiasm, and entertainment.