Rear sway bar from a Mazda MPV?
12-09-06, 04:22 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by aussiesmg
I found the opposite like its supposed to, gee are you convinced, your cheap shot didn't convince me either...What did you race and read to base your experience on...
On one hand you're saying, the stiffer you make one end of the car the more grip it will have. What do you think causes the snap oversteer? It's the spring rate effectively going to infinity when the suspension reaches the limits of travel. You can't have it both ways.
The stiffer you make one end of the car the less grip it will have in relation to the other end. Do a bit of research for yourself.
12-09-06, 04:38 PM
#29
No I'm not and you are seriously oversimplifying the whole issue, antiroll bars only came into being to make suspension work, because without them springs had to be so radically stiff race cars would lose grip over bumps. anti roll bars allow softer spring to be utilised in race conditions.
At no point did I say anything and stiffening one end increasing that same ends grip, simply false and again oversimplified.
Snap oversteer can be caused by a number of issues, including tire grip due to air pressure or actual tire construction, suspension travel, poor geometry, poor road surface and more, in our case it is poor design limiting suspension travel.
How do you figure stiffening one end reduces grip at the other, if that was so why did F1 effectively have no suspension other than tire walls in the ground effects era.
I note you failed to respond to my questions about actual experience.
Do you even own an FB or just the 2nd gen listed on your profile as a 2nd gen had independant rear suspension this changes everything, do you know why?
At no point did I say anything and stiffening one end increasing that same ends grip, simply false and again oversimplified.
Snap oversteer can be caused by a number of issues, including tire grip due to air pressure or actual tire construction, suspension travel, poor geometry, poor road surface and more, in our case it is poor design limiting suspension travel.
How do you figure stiffening one end reduces grip at the other, if that was so why did F1 effectively have no suspension other than tire walls in the ground effects era.
I note you failed to respond to my questions about actual experience.
Do you even own an FB or just the 2nd gen listed on your profile as a 2nd gen had independant rear suspension this changes everything, do you know why?
Last edited by aussiesmg; 12-09-06 at 04:50 PM.
12-09-06, 05:02 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by aussiesmg
Rear anti sway bar transfers its forces to the opposite end of the vehicle, front bar affects oversteer, rear bar affects understeer.....think about it, the rear bar ties the rear to a flatter body roll, this transfers these forces to the opposite end not held by that bar. The front bar does the exact opposite, transfering forces to the rear.
Stiffening up the rear end cause MORE weight to be transfered to the outside rear tire and less to the front end. This extra load on the outside tire increases the slip angle and leads to oversteer. I don't know how to make it any simpler for you.
12-09-06, 05:09 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by aussiesmg
No I'm not and you are seriously oversimplifying the whole issue, antiroll bars only came into being to make suspension work, because without them springs had to be so radically stiff race cars would lose grip over bumps. anti roll bars allow softer spring to be utilised in race conditions.
At no point did I say anything and stiffening one end increasing that same ends grip, simply false and again oversimplified.
Snap oversteer can be caused by a number of issues, including tire grip due to air pressure or actual tire construction, suspension travel, poor geometry, poor road surface and more, in our case it is poor design limiting suspension travel.
How do you figure stiffening one end reduces grip at the other, if that was so why did F1 effectively have no suspension other than tire walls in the ground effects era.
I note you failed to respond to my questions about actual experience.
Do you even own an FB or just the 2nd gen listed on your profile as a 2nd gen had independant rear suspension this changes everything, do you know why?
At no point did I say anything and stiffening one end increasing that same ends grip, simply false and again oversimplified.
Snap oversteer can be caused by a number of issues, including tire grip due to air pressure or actual tire construction, suspension travel, poor geometry, poor road surface and more, in our case it is poor design limiting suspension travel.
How do you figure stiffening one end reduces grip at the other, if that was so why did F1 effectively have no suspension other than tire walls in the ground effects era.
I note you failed to respond to my questions about actual experience.
Do you even own an FB or just the 2nd gen listed on your profile as a 2nd gen had independant rear suspension this changes everything, do you know why?
I know this is not a simple matter but you keep insisting that a stiffer rear end will increase understeer. This is simply not the case. It goes against the laws of phsyics.
Suspensionless F1 cars are a completely different kettle of fish. It has nothing to do with this. We are talking about cars with different roll stiffness front to rear and different weight transfer.
12-09-06, 05:14 PM
#32
Wrong, the idea of an antiroll bar it to limit the amount of weight tranferred to the OUTSIDE wheel which is the one loaded when the vehicle changes direction, the pressure on the arm of the antiroll bar twists this side up and the opposite side moves up in symapthy, sharing the load in a more even manner, thus causing less body roll. Putting more weight onto the outside wheel will decrease grip and increase body roll. The efect of this levelling process tranfers energy to the opposite end on a car with a solid rear axle, for the 4th time.
Your idea of simple is simply wrong dude.
I stand corrected on your car I read series 2 as gen 2, my bad.
Your idea of simple is simply wrong dude.
I stand corrected on your car I read series 2 as gen 2, my bad.
12-09-06, 05:14 PM
#33
i hate to see you two bickering, but theres a lot of good information coming from it...so, carry on
its all a mater of personal preference. theres no "certain way" to mod any car to make it the best for everyone. everyone drives differently and likes things differently. some prefer oversteer, others understeer. its all personal preference. thats why you build cars, for yourself.
i have yet to drive a first gen without a rear sway bar. my DD 85 GSL snap over steered on me the over day so im going to try removing it soon to see if i like it better. maybe i will, maybe i wont.
for each his own.
its all a mater of personal preference. theres no "certain way" to mod any car to make it the best for everyone. everyone drives differently and likes things differently. some prefer oversteer, others understeer. its all personal preference. thats why you build cars, for yourself.
i have yet to drive a first gen without a rear sway bar. my DD 85 GSL snap over steered on me the over day so im going to try removing it soon to see if i like it better. maybe i will, maybe i wont.
for each his own.
12-09-06, 05:23 PM
#34
Just undo one endlink until you have tried it, then its simple to replace if it doesn't work for you.
I think this is interesting and not really bickering although we have sort of headed into that realm at times.
You are very correct it suits some drivers better too understeer, but I am definately quicker in an oversteering car, I like to drive on the throttle...
I think this is interesting and not really bickering although we have sort of headed into that realm at times.
You are very correct it suits some drivers better too understeer, but I am definately quicker in an oversteering car, I like to drive on the throttle...
12-09-06, 05:33 PM
#35
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According to Grassroots Motorsports:
"In fact, given the above information, one might even assume that a firmer anti-roll bar, which leads to better camber control, would lead to better traction. If we add a firmer anti-roll bar to the front, traction loss diminishes, so understeer is reduced, right?
Wrong. Let’s evaluate more closely the meaning of TLLTD-tire lateral load transfer distribution. Stated another way, we might describe TLLTD as the relative demand of side-to-side energy control that is placed upon the tires. Because a firmer anti-roll bar allows less deflection, it will transfer side-to-side energy (lateral loads) at a faster rate.
As the rate of lateral load transfer increases, additional demands are placed upon the tire. So if we install a firmer anti-roll bar in the front, then we increase the distribution of lateral load transfer toward the front tires. This increases the front TLLTD value, which will result in additional understeer, holding all else constant.
The same logic also holds true in the rear. A firmer anti-roll bar in the rear will increase the rate of lateral load transfer, placing more demand upon the rear tires, accelerating lateral traction loss and creating more oversteer, holding all else constant."
RXDad
"In fact, given the above information, one might even assume that a firmer anti-roll bar, which leads to better camber control, would lead to better traction. If we add a firmer anti-roll bar to the front, traction loss diminishes, so understeer is reduced, right?
Wrong. Let’s evaluate more closely the meaning of TLLTD-tire lateral load transfer distribution. Stated another way, we might describe TLLTD as the relative demand of side-to-side energy control that is placed upon the tires. Because a firmer anti-roll bar allows less deflection, it will transfer side-to-side energy (lateral loads) at a faster rate.
As the rate of lateral load transfer increases, additional demands are placed upon the tire. So if we install a firmer anti-roll bar in the front, then we increase the distribution of lateral load transfer toward the front tires. This increases the front TLLTD value, which will result in additional understeer, holding all else constant.
The same logic also holds true in the rear. A firmer anti-roll bar in the rear will increase the rate of lateral load transfer, placing more demand upon the rear tires, accelerating lateral traction loss and creating more oversteer, holding all else constant."
RXDad
12-09-06, 05:35 PM
#36
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Not having a rear sway bar might feel better. But wait until you try and transition in your car and it loses control
Slaloms in autox would be horrid without one
Slaloms in autox would be horrid without one
12-09-06, 05:36 PM
#37
You guys are both partially right.
In a setup where no rear sway bar is run you will have the most traction until the suspension starts to bind and the lateral forces are transmitted to just the outside wheel.
In a setup where a stiffer rear sway bar is present, the force is immediately greater on the outside wheel due to the sway bar trying to drop the inside corner and reduce roll of the car. This will cause the binding to hold off until more lateral force is applied than what would need to be present to transmit all the force to the outside wheel in the no sway bar setup.
Basically all this means is that when you arent pushing the suspension to the limit, no-rear sway bar will work better, due to the fact that there is no force lifting the inside wheel until the suspension reaches its limit, as compared to force always being transmitted in a setup with a rear sway bar.
When you are pushing the suspension to the limit, in the case of no rear sway bar you will reach the point of binding faster, which is what leads to the forces being put more on the outside wheel (when traction is lost). In a car with a rear swaybar, you wont reach the point of binding as fast which will be helpful when the car is being pushed...however is a drawback when the suspension isnt at the point of binding yet.
Hope this makes sense!
In a setup where no rear sway bar is run you will have the most traction until the suspension starts to bind and the lateral forces are transmitted to just the outside wheel.
In a setup where a stiffer rear sway bar is present, the force is immediately greater on the outside wheel due to the sway bar trying to drop the inside corner and reduce roll of the car. This will cause the binding to hold off until more lateral force is applied than what would need to be present to transmit all the force to the outside wheel in the no sway bar setup.
Basically all this means is that when you arent pushing the suspension to the limit, no-rear sway bar will work better, due to the fact that there is no force lifting the inside wheel until the suspension reaches its limit, as compared to force always being transmitted in a setup with a rear sway bar.
When you are pushing the suspension to the limit, in the case of no rear sway bar you will reach the point of binding faster, which is what leads to the forces being put more on the outside wheel (when traction is lost). In a car with a rear swaybar, you wont reach the point of binding as fast which will be helpful when the car is being pushed...however is a drawback when the suspension isnt at the point of binding yet.
Hope this makes sense!
12-10-06, 12:23 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by RXDad
The same logic also holds true in the rear. A firmer anti-roll bar in the rear will increase the rate of lateral load transfer, placing more demand upon the rear tires, accelerating lateral traction loss and creating more oversteer, holding all else constant."
RXDad
RXDad
That's exactly what I was saying.
12-10-06, 12:39 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by Gen1onr
You guys are both partially right.
In a setup where no rear sway bar is run you will have the most traction until the suspension starts to bind and the lateral forces are transmitted to just the outside wheel.
In a setup where a stiffer rear sway bar is present, the force is immediately greater on the outside wheel due to the sway bar trying to drop the inside corner and reduce roll of the car. This will cause the binding to hold off until more lateral force is applied than what would need to be present to transmit all the force to the outside wheel in the no sway bar setup.
Basically all this means is that when you arent pushing the suspension to the limit, no-rear sway bar will work better, due to the fact that there is no force lifting the inside wheel until the suspension reaches its limit, as compared to force always being transmitted in a setup with a rear sway bar.
When you are pushing the suspension to the limit, in the case of no rear sway bar you will reach the point of binding faster, which is what leads to the forces being put more on the outside wheel (when traction is lost). In a car with a rear swaybar, you wont reach the point of binding as fast which will be helpful when the car is being pushed...however is a drawback when the suspension isnt at the point of binding yet.
Hope this makes sense!
In a setup where no rear sway bar is run you will have the most traction until the suspension starts to bind and the lateral forces are transmitted to just the outside wheel.
In a setup where a stiffer rear sway bar is present, the force is immediately greater on the outside wheel due to the sway bar trying to drop the inside corner and reduce roll of the car. This will cause the binding to hold off until more lateral force is applied than what would need to be present to transmit all the force to the outside wheel in the no sway bar setup.
Basically all this means is that when you arent pushing the suspension to the limit, no-rear sway bar will work better, due to the fact that there is no force lifting the inside wheel until the suspension reaches its limit, as compared to force always being transmitted in a setup with a rear sway bar.
When you are pushing the suspension to the limit, in the case of no rear sway bar you will reach the point of binding faster, which is what leads to the forces being put more on the outside wheel (when traction is lost). In a car with a rear swaybar, you wont reach the point of binding as fast which will be helpful when the car is being pushed...however is a drawback when the suspension isnt at the point of binding yet.
Hope this makes sense!
12-10-06, 01:54 AM
#40
love the braaaap
Thread Starter
Wow, although this thread has gone way off in another direction I didn't intend it to go, its providing some of the best info I have read about suspension tuning besides a book. It may take a bit to decifer it all, but there is a lot of good info here.
So, what I've always read is what REVHED has been saying. A stiffer rear sway bar induces more oversteer. But, I think I'll also have to try unhooking the rear bar when my car is back on the road, but I doubt it will have the same effect on my car. I have very stiff springs in the rear, in the order of 150-160 lb/in. As it turns out, the front is softer than the rear, at 145 lb/in. This won't do at all. I plan on going to a GC coilover kit in the front with 250lb/in springs. Even without a swaybar upgrade in the front it'll handle like on rails. I'll also go to a full poly bushing set in the front with new stock rubber bushings in the rear to keep things as compliant as possible. Tokico shocks all around, the non adjustable ones.
So, what I've always read is what REVHED has been saying. A stiffer rear sway bar induces more oversteer. But, I think I'll also have to try unhooking the rear bar when my car is back on the road, but I doubt it will have the same effect on my car. I have very stiff springs in the rear, in the order of 150-160 lb/in. As it turns out, the front is softer than the rear, at 145 lb/in. This won't do at all. I plan on going to a GC coilover kit in the front with 250lb/in springs. Even without a swaybar upgrade in the front it'll handle like on rails. I'll also go to a full poly bushing set in the front with new stock rubber bushings in the rear to keep things as compliant as possible. Tokico shocks all around, the non adjustable ones.
12-10-06, 03:30 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by 85rotarypower
Wow, although this thread has gone way off in another direction I didn't intend it to go, its providing some of the best info I have read about suspension tuning besides a book. It may take a bit to decifer it all, but there is a lot of good info here.
So, what I've always read is what REVHED has been saying. A stiffer rear sway bar induces more oversteer. But, I think I'll also have to try unhooking the rear bar when my car is back on the road, but I doubt it will have the same effect on my car. I have very stiff springs in the rear, in the order of 150-160 lb/in. As it turns out, the front is softer than the rear, at 145 lb/in. This won't do at all. I plan on going to a GC coilover kit in the front with 250lb/in springs. Even without a swaybar upgrade in the front it'll handle like on rails. I'll also go to a full poly bushing set in the front with new stock rubber bushings in the rear to keep things as compliant as possible. Tokico shocks all around, the non adjustable ones.
So, what I've always read is what REVHED has been saying. A stiffer rear sway bar induces more oversteer. But, I think I'll also have to try unhooking the rear bar when my car is back on the road, but I doubt it will have the same effect on my car. I have very stiff springs in the rear, in the order of 150-160 lb/in. As it turns out, the front is softer than the rear, at 145 lb/in. This won't do at all. I plan on going to a GC coilover kit in the front with 250lb/in springs. Even without a swaybar upgrade in the front it'll handle like on rails. I'll also go to a full poly bushing set in the front with new stock rubber bushings in the rear to keep things as compliant as possible. Tokico shocks all around, the non adjustable ones.
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