Jon's Continuing Running Problems
05-29-03, 01:31 PM
#1
Jon's Continuing Running Problems
The section below is taken from the work Journal I've been keeping on my car. For those of you that haven't been following my random posts, I swapped out the old stock '84 GS Standard Nikki for one off an '82 GS Automatic, because the old one wasn't working.
Part 1 - Getting Her Running
1.1 Engine/Carb
Current:
Currently the engine starts. It jumps to 3500rpm and then within a few seconds, sputters and dies. If I pull the choke (which actually stays extended now), I can run the car at 3000rpm for as long as I want to. The vacuum system is hooked up properly again, after looking at Eric’s car as a reference. By playing with his idle mixture and speed screws, we left the mixture one at 3 turns out, and played with the speed one. I know I can probably bring that “jumps to 3500” down to the proper level, because we had Eric’s car running that high, and just adjusted the speed screw down. However, he didn’t have the “sputter and die” problem, so our guess is that the problem does not lie in the screws, or in the layout of the vacuum system, it lies elsewhere.
Work To Be Done:
Well, Eric came over. We put the vacuum system back together properly, and it seems to be working. I gauge this by the fact that the choke will stay extended, and the slightly more constant running of the engine. As well, that incident with the flying marker was a good indicator
. I still think this is caused by a vacuum leak, however it’s a much smaller leak than we had before. The car is easier to start, and can actually be started and held running with the gas pedal only now. I am going to remove the carburetor, labeling everything with masking tape this time and taking pictures if I can get a digital camera. I will remove and clean the plastic gasket that seals between the intake manifold and the carburetor, and use the high temp silicon that I bought to create a proper seal. Then, one at a time I am going to use the silicon on all the vacuum connections. Hopefully this will eliminate any vacuum leaks present.
Also, before I do any of this, I am going to run the car with the choke out, and use a can of carburetor cleaner to try and clean the insides of the carb. Since the carb was removed last year, and sat in a garage over the winter, it is possible that dust and time have plugged some of the tiny internal passages. Maybe doing this will help things along.
The only other things I can think of at this time that might be causing the problems are: The differences in the ‘84 standard and ‘82 automatic carburetors, and possibly float levels, though I’m not sure exactly how those would affect things. It’s possible that if the floats are not set high enough, or if they were thrown out of whack during transport, that the gas level is not getting high enough to provide gas at idle. You never know. I’ll try everything else first unless I get a solid indication that the float level is a definite possibility.
Future Work/Upgrades:
After the safety check is passed, I want to do the Rats Nest removal tutorial done by Rx7Carl. If I’m leaving the cats in I will leave the air pump in, otherwise if I’m straight piping or considering an RB exhaust at that time, I’ll remove the pump too.
Eventually, a Holley, Webber or Dellorto carburetor will replace the one I have. Hopefully I will be able to hold off on that purchase until after the street port and engine rebuild, because if not, derivability will suck.
Parts Needed For Current Work:
Vacuum Tubing (blue) http://www.mazdatrix.com/C-SILHOS.HTM
Sanity In Limited Supply, Check With Local Dealer
So yeah, basically the reason I'm posting this is to ask:
Am I on the right track?
Does it still sound like a vacuum leak?
Is the float idea a possible cause?
What other possible causes might there be?
And to ease my sanity: Are you guys *SURE* that using an '82 Automatic Nikki on an '84 Standard will not cause problems?
Freakin' Out A Bit,
Jon
Part 1 - Getting Her Running
1.1 Engine/Carb
Current:
Currently the engine starts. It jumps to 3500rpm and then within a few seconds, sputters and dies. If I pull the choke (which actually stays extended now), I can run the car at 3000rpm for as long as I want to. The vacuum system is hooked up properly again, after looking at Eric’s car as a reference. By playing with his idle mixture and speed screws, we left the mixture one at 3 turns out, and played with the speed one. I know I can probably bring that “jumps to 3500” down to the proper level, because we had Eric’s car running that high, and just adjusted the speed screw down. However, he didn’t have the “sputter and die” problem, so our guess is that the problem does not lie in the screws, or in the layout of the vacuum system, it lies elsewhere.
Work To Be Done:
Well, Eric came over. We put the vacuum system back together properly, and it seems to be working. I gauge this by the fact that the choke will stay extended, and the slightly more constant running of the engine. As well, that incident with the flying marker was a good indicator
. I still think this is caused by a vacuum leak, however it’s a much smaller leak than we had before. The car is easier to start, and can actually be started and held running with the gas pedal only now. I am going to remove the carburetor, labeling everything with masking tape this time and taking pictures if I can get a digital camera. I will remove and clean the plastic gasket that seals between the intake manifold and the carburetor, and use the high temp silicon that I bought to create a proper seal. Then, one at a time I am going to use the silicon on all the vacuum connections. Hopefully this will eliminate any vacuum leaks present. Also, before I do any of this, I am going to run the car with the choke out, and use a can of carburetor cleaner to try and clean the insides of the carb. Since the carb was removed last year, and sat in a garage over the winter, it is possible that dust and time have plugged some of the tiny internal passages. Maybe doing this will help things along.
The only other things I can think of at this time that might be causing the problems are: The differences in the ‘84 standard and ‘82 automatic carburetors, and possibly float levels, though I’m not sure exactly how those would affect things. It’s possible that if the floats are not set high enough, or if they were thrown out of whack during transport, that the gas level is not getting high enough to provide gas at idle. You never know. I’ll try everything else first unless I get a solid indication that the float level is a definite possibility.
Future Work/Upgrades:
After the safety check is passed, I want to do the Rats Nest removal tutorial done by Rx7Carl. If I’m leaving the cats in I will leave the air pump in, otherwise if I’m straight piping or considering an RB exhaust at that time, I’ll remove the pump too.
Eventually, a Holley, Webber or Dellorto carburetor will replace the one I have. Hopefully I will be able to hold off on that purchase until after the street port and engine rebuild, because if not, derivability will suck.
Parts Needed For Current Work:
Vacuum Tubing (blue) http://www.mazdatrix.com/C-SILHOS.HTM
Sanity In Limited Supply, Check With Local Dealer
So yeah, basically the reason I'm posting this is to ask:
Am I on the right track?
Does it still sound like a vacuum leak?
Is the float idea a possible cause?
What other possible causes might there be?
And to ease my sanity: Are you guys *SURE* that using an '82 Automatic Nikki on an '84 Standard will not cause problems?
Freakin' Out A Bit,
Jon
05-29-03, 08:27 PM
#2
EliteHardcoreCannuckSquad
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Jon...
Are you talking about the carb you bought from me? Am I confusing you with someone else - you're the guy that came over to my house that night when Will and I were working on my car, and bought my old Nikki carb and Bonez air intake / K&N filter, right?
If so, that carb definitely isn't from an automatic! My car is most definitely a 5 speed, trust me I would know LOL!
Dude, I wouldn't use silicon gasket sealer on your vacuum connections, bad idea and there's no point. If the vacuum lines you're using are good (ie. not cracked) they'll seal just fine by themselves.
I can tell you is that in the state which I gave it to you (emissions deleted and capped off, etc) that carb ran *awesome* on my car until the day I removed it. It was stored in my parents' basement for pretty much exactly one year, not outside in the garage. I would venture to suggest that the problems you're having could be the result of anything you've done to change it, such as attempting to hook back up all the emissions stuff, etc, or are simply not related to the carb itself. I wouldn't be suspicious about the float level too much personally. Didn't you say you were messing with your ratnest, that you had taken it all apart, all the lines off etc?
Now, mind you, if I bought *any* used carb, the first thing I would do would be to rebuild it or have it rebuilt, and make all the proper adjustments. With carbs, in my experience it's important to start with a solid playing field, which means a fresh rebuild. But that's me.
It sounds to me from your symptoms like you've got a vacuum leak, BTW. What about the large vacuum line coming from the firewall side of the carb down to the intake manifold? I would pull that one off and see if there's any cracks at all in it - it's a super common problem that will cause what you're describing. Inspect all of the vacuum lines and connections carefully - you don't need silicon dude, but make sure they're all good.
Good luck!
Are you talking about the carb you bought from me? Am I confusing you with someone else - you're the guy that came over to my house that night when Will and I were working on my car, and bought my old Nikki carb and Bonez air intake / K&N filter, right?
If so, that carb definitely isn't from an automatic! My car is most definitely a 5 speed, trust me I would know LOL!
Dude, I wouldn't use silicon gasket sealer on your vacuum connections, bad idea and there's no point. If the vacuum lines you're using are good (ie. not cracked) they'll seal just fine by themselves.
I can tell you is that in the state which I gave it to you (emissions deleted and capped off, etc) that carb ran *awesome* on my car until the day I removed it. It was stored in my parents' basement for pretty much exactly one year, not outside in the garage. I would venture to suggest that the problems you're having could be the result of anything you've done to change it, such as attempting to hook back up all the emissions stuff, etc, or are simply not related to the carb itself. I wouldn't be suspicious about the float level too much personally. Didn't you say you were messing with your ratnest, that you had taken it all apart, all the lines off etc?
Now, mind you, if I bought *any* used carb, the first thing I would do would be to rebuild it or have it rebuilt, and make all the proper adjustments. With carbs, in my experience it's important to start with a solid playing field, which means a fresh rebuild. But that's me.
It sounds to me from your symptoms like you've got a vacuum leak, BTW. What about the large vacuum line coming from the firewall side of the carb down to the intake manifold? I would pull that one off and see if there's any cracks at all in it - it's a super common problem that will cause what you're describing. Inspect all of the vacuum lines and connections carefully - you don't need silicon dude, but make sure they're all good.
Good luck!
05-29-03, 10:19 PM
#3
Hey!
Yeah, you've got the right guy. Good to hear from ya, didn't know you ever visited the 1st gen section.
I never *did* ask if your car was 5 speed or automatic... but when I was comparing the differences between the two carbs, I found this little electrical needle-pusher that went on the passenger side of mine, whose hole was blocked on yours. Rx7Carl guessed that your car could have been automatic because he noticed autos didn't have that thingy. My mistake :P
No I didn't have the rats nest apart, just the tubes that went to the carb when I took the carb out. Stupid me didn't label any of the tubes, so I had to get Eric over to figure out where everything plugged back into the carburetor. I gave up any idea of "re-putting" the two emission thingies on, since it would be a useless thing to do, and Eric's had them removed anyway.
If the silicon is a bad idea, then I won't do it, but the reason I was thinking of it was because the hoses seemed to only lightly fit over top of their connectors... not anywhere near as tightly as they did when I took them off. I'm guessing it's because the rubber in the hoses is 18 years old.
I'm still betting on the fact that it isn't the carb, since all indications are that the carb is running perfectly fine (hell, if it can run the car at 3000rpms, it's gotta be good!). But I still have the stalling problem, and that's why I wanted to seal all the hoses to prevent any leaks from their loose connections. I'll check the firewall side of the carb, but I don't actually remember seeing anywhere to hook a vacuum hose on the rear of the carb... except on that emissions piece on that side that isn't there on your carb. So I just plugged the hose from the intake manifold with a bolt and a clamp.
As for rebuilding it, the reason I bought it off you was so that I wouldn't have to rebuild my other carb. I don't have a CLUE where to bring a carb to be rebuilt in this city, and contrary to my best efforts, I haven't found the name of a mechanic that *can* do it yet. If I knew someone who could properly do it, and wouldn't charge more for the rebuild than I payed for the carb, I'd have it done right away. Heck, had I known someone who could do it, I'd have had it done to my original Nikki, to eliminate the guesswork as to whether it's the 2-year difference that's causing the problems (chances are that it isn't though, but I have to consider EVERY possibility).
And to you and everyone else, I'm running out of ideas! If you've got any suggestions of things to check, or want pictures of certain areas, I'd be more than happy to oblige! Damn, I want this thing to run, and it's only one small little problem keeping it from doing so..
Jon
Yeah, you've got the right guy. Good to hear from ya, didn't know you ever visited the 1st gen section.
I never *did* ask if your car was 5 speed or automatic... but when I was comparing the differences between the two carbs, I found this little electrical needle-pusher that went on the passenger side of mine, whose hole was blocked on yours. Rx7Carl guessed that your car could have been automatic because he noticed autos didn't have that thingy. My mistake :P
No I didn't have the rats nest apart, just the tubes that went to the carb when I took the carb out. Stupid me didn't label any of the tubes, so I had to get Eric over to figure out where everything plugged back into the carburetor. I gave up any idea of "re-putting" the two emission thingies on, since it would be a useless thing to do, and Eric's had them removed anyway.
If the silicon is a bad idea, then I won't do it, but the reason I was thinking of it was because the hoses seemed to only lightly fit over top of their connectors... not anywhere near as tightly as they did when I took them off. I'm guessing it's because the rubber in the hoses is 18 years old.
I'm still betting on the fact that it isn't the carb, since all indications are that the carb is running perfectly fine (hell, if it can run the car at 3000rpms, it's gotta be good!). But I still have the stalling problem, and that's why I wanted to seal all the hoses to prevent any leaks from their loose connections. I'll check the firewall side of the carb, but I don't actually remember seeing anywhere to hook a vacuum hose on the rear of the carb... except on that emissions piece on that side that isn't there on your carb. So I just plugged the hose from the intake manifold with a bolt and a clamp.
As for rebuilding it, the reason I bought it off you was so that I wouldn't have to rebuild my other carb. I don't have a CLUE where to bring a carb to be rebuilt in this city, and contrary to my best efforts, I haven't found the name of a mechanic that *can* do it yet. If I knew someone who could properly do it, and wouldn't charge more for the rebuild than I payed for the carb, I'd have it done right away. Heck, had I known someone who could do it, I'd have had it done to my original Nikki, to eliminate the guesswork as to whether it's the 2-year difference that's causing the problems (chances are that it isn't though, but I have to consider EVERY possibility).
And to you and everyone else, I'm running out of ideas! If you've got any suggestions of things to check, or want pictures of certain areas, I'd be more than happy to oblige! Damn, I want this thing to run, and it's only one small little problem keeping it from doing so..
Jon
05-29-03, 10:22 PM
#4
Oh, one extra little thing....
On your gasket, you had all the vacuum connections there capped... I left *my* gasket in, and the connections it had with the ratsnest intact, since I had never touched them. I need all the connections (or at least 90% of them) to be intact in order to pass the safety. It has to LOOK stock. If there were vacuum plugs all over the place, it wouldn't pass. So yeah, there are a few things connected that weren't on your carb, but they're at the gasket and I don't think those are much of a problem. At least... I hope not.
Jon
On your gasket, you had all the vacuum connections there capped... I left *my* gasket in, and the connections it had with the ratsnest intact, since I had never touched them. I need all the connections (or at least 90% of them) to be intact in order to pass the safety. It has to LOOK stock. If there were vacuum plugs all over the place, it wouldn't pass. So yeah, there are a few things connected that weren't on your carb, but they're at the gasket and I don't think those are much of a problem. At least... I hope not.
Jon
05-29-03, 10:36 PM
#5
EliteHardcoreCannuckSquad
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The reason I said not to silicon it is that how are you gonna remove them after? A messy fix IMO. If you're gonna do that kinda thing, just use zip-ties like the FD guys do. In my experience I've never had a problem with vacuum line connections, but if you think your lines are no good, then just go to KVR or whatever, get some vacuum hose and do it the right way!
Yeah, come to think of it I did take that off didn't I. I just capped mine on the intake manifold I guess. Lol my memory sucks.
You sure it isn't leaking a little bit? I'd double check that!
I don't actually remember seeing anywhere to hook a vacuum hose on the rear of the carb...
So I just plugged the hose from the intake manifold with a bolt and a clamp.
05-29-03, 10:43 PM
#6
Airflow is my life
Well it sounds like things are looking up. However I still stand by my claim. Auto cars dont have the richer solenoid and the carbs are consquently not even drilled and tapped for it. No biggie really but Silver Rocket it is a fact, look at the shop manual.
3 turns out is the correct starting point for the mixture adjustment. However as for the idle speed, make sure that the throttle cable isint keeping you from dropping the speed down to a reasonable idle speed.
Dont use Silicone as a sealant here. Its ok, but a thin smear of Hylomar will be better (very thin). The float level should be in the middle of the windows. Also make sure of your vacuum hose. Its cheap to just run new stuff if in doubt. Sitting is bad for carbs, the old fuel gunks up and makes a mess outta things. And if things are that bad,Sterling or I can rebuild your carb if need be.
However I still stand by my claim. Auto cars dont have the richer solenoid and the carbs are consquently not even drilled and tapped for it. No biggie really but Silver Rocket it is a fact, look at the shop manual.3 turns out is the correct starting point for the mixture adjustment. However as for the idle speed, make sure that the throttle cable isint keeping you from dropping the speed down to a reasonable idle speed.
Dont use Silicone as a sealant here. Its ok, but a thin smear of Hylomar will be better (very thin). The float level should be in the middle of the windows. Also make sure of your vacuum hose. Its cheap to just run new stuff if in doubt. Sitting is bad for carbs, the old fuel gunks up and makes a mess outta things. And if things are that bad,Sterling or I can rebuild your carb if need be.
05-29-03, 10:52 PM
#7
Carl,
I'd pay two-way shipping and a 24 of beer if you guys would do that! But I'm gonna wait until I've ruled out the other external possibilities first. I'm sure the carb that's on there is good.
The reason I'm using high-temp silicon is because it's MUCH more removable that gasket-maker or hylomar. The guy at Canadian Tire said that if I was looking for something to seal, and withstand high heat, but wanted an easy way to pull it off, this would be the stuff.
If I can find out a local place to get cheap hose, hell, I'll just do that! But I haven't found any lately... Where the heck is KVR? I've never heard of it b4
Jon
I'd pay two-way shipping and a 24 of beer if you guys would do that! But I'm gonna wait until I've ruled out the other external possibilities first. I'm sure the carb that's on there is good.
The reason I'm using high-temp silicon is because it's MUCH more removable that gasket-maker or hylomar. The guy at Canadian Tire said that if I was looking for something to seal, and withstand high heat, but wanted an easy way to pull it off, this would be the stuff.
If I can find out a local place to get cheap hose, hell, I'll just do that! But I haven't found any lately... Where the heck is KVR? I've never heard of it b4
Jon
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05-29-03, 10:58 PM
#8
Airflow is my life
Ok see how it goes, the offer stands. Nah hylomar is non drying (unlike silicone). It doesnt need to be removed, its like a glue. Just buy some vacuum hose to replace what you got to be sure. Its cheap.
KVR????????? I dunno what you mean?
KVR????????? I dunno what you mean?
05-29-03, 10:58 PM
#9
EliteHardcoreCannuckSquad
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Auto cars dont have the richer solenoid and the carbs are consquently not even drilled and tapped for it.
05-29-03, 11:04 PM
#10
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If I can find out a local place to get cheap hose, hell, I'll just do that! But I haven't found any lately... Where the heck is KVR? I've never heard of it b4
05-30-03, 12:53 PM
#12
Any parts store except Canadian Tire :P They're a great place since they sell practically everything under the sun.... except vacuum hose and vacuum line plugs... They have ONE set of vacuum caps, you get 8, all of them are different sizes (I only need the ones size) for a high price.... so I'm gonna look elsewhere, as soon as I can get the time to get the heck out of Aylmer!
For now, I like the idea that was thrown across of zip-ties... those should be perfect. I plan to order the cool blue vacuum hose from mazdatrix eventually anyway when do the whole emissions tutorial and straightpipe the cats, but for now, I'll just zip tie the buggers this afternoon.
I'll let you guys know how it goes...
Jon
For now, I like the idea that was thrown across of zip-ties... those should be perfect. I plan to order the cool blue vacuum hose from mazdatrix eventually anyway when do the whole emissions tutorial and straightpipe the cats, but for now, I'll just zip tie the buggers this afternoon.
I'll let you guys know how it goes...
Jon
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