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Ideas to Improve Handling...? Want to Enjoy My Car Again.
Hi all,
I feel really silly posting this so don't beat me up too bad. I hardly ever drive my RX-7 anymore because I just find the handling vague. I keep wanting to sell it so I can focus on my other car or try something new. BUT, once it gets cold outside like < 50 degrees, all of a sudden the car comes to life again and is a joy to drive and I totally change my mind. I can't figure it out at all. But the car only feels decent when it's colder outside. Does this make any sense at all or is it only in my head?
My current setup is:
OEM 13" 5.5" wheels with Kumho Solus TA11 185/70-13 tires
Moog tie-rods and idler-arm, no-name pitman arm
Energy Suspension polyurethane caster arm and lower control arm bushings
Tociko Illumina shocks front and rear (shocks are on stiffness of "3")
rear suspension is totally stock and original to when I bought the car (hadn't been run in 7 years)
I can feel/hear a clunk in the rear suspension when going over bumps and can feel some side to side motion when cornering from the rear. I'm planning on replacing everything in the rear suspension, since I doubt this is helping.
To expand on what I don't like: I feel the initial turn-in is pretty vague and sloppy, with little steering feedback mid-corner. The car feels like it's understeering the whole time. At first I blamed the steering, but I only have like 1/2" total play, so that's pretty tight. The only thing I feel could really be having this effect is the tires or alignment. I have my tires at 37 psi to try and eliminate sidewall flex (you can rock the car back and forth like its on marshmallows), but that doesn't seem to help. Raising or lowering the tire pressure will sometimes help for a little bit, but then it gets weird again.
Other ideas, maybe the front suspension is too low, there is a noticeable rake on the car due to the lowering springs, I have like 1-finger gap in the front (it never rubs though). Any little bump slams and jerks the steering usually. In general the car feels harsh but floaty. I've thought about returning the car to stock, but I don't want to go through the effort if it won't help. And again, when it's cold outside most of my criticism goes away and the car is fun to drive again - which makes no sense to me.
I want to enjoy my car again, I love the sound, love the rotary and I love the handling when it feels good. But it's been a little bit of a rough patch with the car, I keep second guessing whether it's just how these cars are, but I can't see that. Any thoughts or ideas?
One of the reasons I gave up on my FB was that there was really no way to get passed its origin of a parts bin car with parts pulled from the b2000. It's a less practical truck. Sadly I never really replaced it but am finally getting a NA miata and the R&P steering and IRS will 'fix' everything wrong with the FB's handling and general enjoyment day to day. Granting I will also need to replace/upgrade anything rubber in the suspension to get it back right and go from there.
I will say that simply just replacing worn bushings and joints will make things 100 times better. I finally did this to my '89 truck since I don't really plan to get rid of it so I could talk myself into the time/cost and it feels so much better and how I would imagine it felt new. I even replaced the steering box and every link in the steering. The other reality is that it will never feel too enjoyable to drive after being spoiled with R&P and IRS... for me. The most enjoyable part of driving it is that I've had it since I was 14 or 15 and I still daily drive it at times. I love that. Sometimes something will play on my phone that I've listened to since that age while I'm driving it and it's a nice time warp and a good feeling that I still have and drive the thing.
All of that to say my 2 cent is that an FB isn't going to give you dynamic driving enjoyment so you'll need to find enjoyment in something else. Like knowing you have to turn the steering wheel 1/4 turn before a curve to set up the steering to be ready for it. Having code brown moments when a bump in an off ramp makes the live axle skip a few feet out of step since of course you're already at the limit of mechanical grip. Savior the few times you can go through an intersection sideways because why the **** not since this is the one time it's not clogged with traffic and you don't see cops.
I can't recall what springs I had at this point, they were a common upgrade, ST I think. ST sway bars and Tokico blues were my set up along with having replaced all of the rubber and adjust the steering box for all it was worth. It was a nice ride to me, it never bothered me itself and it handled great but always just felt let down with that steering and live axle.
All of that to say my 2 cent is that an FB isn't going to give you dynamic driving enjoyment so you'll need to find enjoyment in something else. Like knowing you have to turn the steering wheel 1/4 turn before a curve to set up the steering to be ready for it. Having code brown moments when a bump in an off ramp makes the live axle skip a few feet out of step since of course you're already at the limit of mechanical grip. Savior the few times you can go through an intersection sideways because why the **** not since this is the one time it's not clogged with traffic and you don't see cops..
That's a really good paragraph describing why our cars are great. Embrace the weirdness!
I'm no suspension expert - but there's several things I'd look at based off your description. First, I'd lose the 13" tires. How many miles are on the springs? With those stiff of springs, you shouldn't be floating. This also might be a sign that the shocks are bad (or extremely limited in their piston travel), which can happen when certain shocks are coupled with lowering springs? Second, the springs are super stiff - that along with 13" tires leaves you relying on sidewall for 'feel'. I would go with a Racing Beat spring and another set of shocks - you should allow for some suspension travel/roll. Add that to a lower profile, larger tire (15") - let's you ride the suspension to it's limit, before you get the tire's...
These cars will never handle like a modern car - but it sounds like you might have some tired parts?
You need better tires, they have the largest effect on your driving experience. I run 195/50/15 summer tires and I feel like my car handles awesome very much like a miata but more lively with the solid rear.
Get some real performance tires in 15" and the car will come alive, all of the suspension upgrades you have done have made the chassis outperform the tires.
Tires.....repeat after me.....Tires. Tires are everything on a car whether you are racing it or just tooling around on the street. As others have said, 15" tires on 15x7 rims are the way to go. In a 205/50x15 there are fantastic options. The rear suspension clunk is a bad bushing somewhere. When the rubber gets hard it stops working - may need new parts there. Play with shock/strut adjustments to see if that doesn't correct floatiness. Those shocks/struts can go bad so check for leaks. Also, test them like you would any other shock/strut - bounce the car and it doesn't stop moving quickly they are worn out.
Rotor vs Piston....my race car takes exception to your comments! FBs aren't perfect but properly prepped they work very well.
Tires.....repeat after me.....Tires. Tires are everything on a car whether you are racing it or just tooling around on the street. As others have said, 15" tires on 15x7 rims are the way to go. In a 205/50x15 there are fantastic options. The rear suspension clunk is a bad bushing somewhere. When the rubber gets hard it stops working - may need new parts there. Play with shock/strut adjustments to see if that doesn't correct floatiness. Those shocks/struts can go bad so check for leaks. Also, test them like you would any other shock/strut - bounce the car and it doesn't stop moving quickly they are worn out.
Rotor vs Piston....my race car takes exception to your comments! FBs aren't perfect but properly prepped they work very well.
This man speaks the truth, I would argue that the FB front suspension is better than the FC front suspension.
Your tires suck, just a fact. You have to move to a 15" rim to get great rubber again. I have Konig Rewinds 15x7 wheels with Dunlap Star 2 tires. Great setup and really feels good. The tires cost more than the wheels.
I have RB springs with one coil (on each spring) cut and older gas struts/shocks which cannot handle the RB springs, especially cut. So I experience some harshness and boucyness and porpoising on long sweeping curves (on ramps as an example). I know its the shocks and I'm thinking of going to Tokico Blues, I don't really need the adjustables. Other than that the car handles great. In fact I just did a 300 mile round trip from Charlotte to Raleigh NC for work yesterday and enjoyed the 2+ hours drive each way averaging about 70 MPH and got 22+ MPG with the headlights up.
One reason it feels better in the cold is everything gets harder and stiffer (bushings, joints, tires etc) This makes the car feel more connected.
Also, this is an 80s sports car, its not going to feel like any new car as far as controls and feedback goes. Bump steer, rear axle movement, loose steering, its all part of the joy of driving this car. I've had my 80 since 1983 when it had 30K on the odo, it actually feels and handles much better now than when it was almost new. I do know it sure beat the hell out of the Pinto I was autox-ing and driving before that.
Thanks for the responses everyone. Looks like most seem to agree that I've under-tired the chassis (or made it too stiff for the current tires). The only reason I've had trouble believing this is because my Civic which is about the same weight as my RX-7 and has spring rates about twice of the RX-7 doesn't seem to have any of these problems on 13" all-seasons. It has Michelin Defender 175/70-13 tires though. I can wiggle my RX-7 back and forth on the current tires, where my Civic is rock-solid. Are the Kumho's just crappy tires versus the Michelins? But maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges and my Civic is just less sensitive to crappy tires.
I guess I just don't want to spend the money if it's not going to improve my enjoyment of the car. I'm just worried I'll spend the money and then be in the same boat I am now. When I first bought the car everyone kept telling me it will never drive like a modern car, but I didn't believe them. I guess I understand what they were saying. I guess I'm trying to decide whether I would enjoy the car more stock or if I should go the route of different wheels and tires along with the changes I've done. I have considered buying something more "modern", been considering Fiat X1/9, 1.6 Miata or AE86, but my RX-7 is such a special car I'm reluctant to sell it.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot I enjoy about my RX-7, the handling is one of them, I just don't like how some days it seems to handle great and other days it feels awful. Is it really possible that the tires are that sensitive to temperature changes? I'm going to replace all the suspension links in the rear suspension with new OEM rubber and see if that improves things for me. I think the axle is moving around a bit and is decreasing my confidence in the car. When I originally did all my suspension work this is something I ignored.
More so the manufacturer matters, size of tire matters. Just based off your sizes alone, the Civic's tire is a lower profile tire than your RX. That'll allow for some of your side to side. Take that a step further - a 205/50R15 has over a 1" lower profile, and is almost 1" wider. Better feel, better handling. You need to invest in tires and rims. I'd still suspect you have a shock or spring issue if the car floats.
I want to enjoy my car again, I love the sound, love the rotary and I love the handling when it feels good. But it's been a little bit of a rough patch with the car, I keep second guessing whether it's just how these cars are, but I can't see that. Any thoughts or ideas?
Thanks!
I feel the same way as you, just that I have the 15X7 wheels with Nitto Neo Gen 205/50/15. But to me the handling and brakes are vague. Ive been thinking on buying coilovers but idk if the car is going to be where I want to be.
I feel the same way as you, just that I have the 15X7 wheels with Nitto Neo Gen 205/50/15. But to me the handling and brakes are vague. Ive been thinking on buying coilovers but idk if the car is going to be where I want to be.
I appreciate the car for what it is and realize that it's probably not going to handle as well as my Civic. I really do enjoy the handling of the car, but only when it's working properly. It just seems like it has two handling modes, one bad and one good.
I've never found the brakes vague though, so there is hope for you there. I actually feel my RX-7 has the best feedback through the brakes of any car I've ever driven. I replaced front rotors, installed Hawk brake pads and replaced rear shoes. My Civic has the exact same setup (disc/drum no-ABS), but the RX-7 is way more communicative. I just don't want to waste money if it won't make me enjoy the car more, I'd rather just enjoy it stock in that case.
Just to reiterate my point, I drove the car home from work this evening. It's 42 degrees out and the car felt great. Had a huge amount of fun just driving normally, felt very connected to the car through the steering. It's just from experience of how the car has been the last year or so, it will probably feel crummy again once the temperature rises. Maybe I'm just crazy or imagining it, I'm open to that but I feel like there is something else there.
Start with the basics and fix what you know is broken, the rear suspension.
You need better tires. I know there's not much available in 13, but there's some seriously good tires in a 15.
You would also benefit from a little more toe in to increase the turn in response.
Heavy front sway bar with a stock rear sway bar will make it tend to understeer. Suspension rake tends to understeer. Fix those things.
Sounds like you may need roll center adjusters in your front suspension as well.
Yep, just ordered new OEM parts for the rear suspension as it's 35 year old original stuff. I really like the idea of running a wider 13"x7" or 14"x7" wheel. There are a handful of companies producing 205/60-13 tires, but putting those tires on the stock 5.5" didn't really do much for handling (although it increased road-holding). Does anyone run zero toe on these cars, seems like it would only increase the annoying wander that these cars tend to have. I've also considered lifting the front with spacers. At what point do roll adjusters come into play when the lower control arm and tie rod ends are no longer parallel?
Not sure, whatever the spec should be for them. I want to say 20 but I would have to check. Hold on. Yep 20, heres the amazon link to ones identical to what I bought for about the same price.
I had a 93 FD, I was running a set of Tein Flex Coilovers with the adjustable dampers. It was a great setup for the price, and I was able to notice a difference in the handling. However, it did take some time to get the dampers dialed in to where the car felt solid. This was back in 2005, so I'm sure that the technology has only gotten better.
I thoroughly enjoyed my car on the drive home this evening. I think the rear suspension is what's messing with me now. The rear end felt quite sloppy and indecisive. I think it may be moving a bit creating a rear-steering effect that's obviously undesirable, my parts arrive on Thursday, so hopefully I'll get some time this weekend or next to install and post my impressions. Thanks for the help thus far everyone.
Got the rear suspension apart today, took awhile (I've never had it off before). The bushings didn't look that bad. We'll see if this makes an improvement or not. However what I did find is that the driver side shock (where the clunk was coming from) could be moved up and down relative to it's mounting point about 1". This can't be good, and I wonder if it was the sole source of the handling problems from the rear. We'll see tomorrow.
12-07-17, 11:54 PM
