Paradox

iTrader: (1)

i'm about to sell my SE and it doesnt want to stay running. i'm going to toy around a bit with it and see if i cant get it going.

what happens is when started it will crank over, rev to 3000rpm or so, then just shut down. same thing happens over and over every crank. i had it running a few months ago and it would do this occasionally but once started it ran great.

it has fuel, spark, air, fuel system i cleaned out few months ago. i toyed around with the TPS before to get it going last time but this isnt helping now.

could this be the AFM? jason_child was saying something about a 3 second range that the AFM will ignore on startup. i've read over the SE idle faq and well, not much help. the haynes manual is pratically useless for injected 13b's..

any input would be great!

Rotary Weasel

my GSL-SE will do this occassionally on startup....over time i've simply improvised by keeping the engine at 1800-2200 rpm by means of my ol' right foot..after a minute or so it holds on it's own..of course this doesn't help you lol

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

ya, right foot method wont help here, all its going to do is flood it anyways. damn EFI! hehe

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

I would maybe look into the fuel pump relay or the AFM. As you said, the AFM is ignored on start-up. When cranking the car, a signal is sent to keep the fuel pump running. After you let go of the key (engine running), the fuel pump relay stays engaged with the switch in the AFM.

This could mean:

- AFM door stuck, not opening
- switch in AFM is bad

THis would cause the fuel pump to shut off just as the car starts and could be the cause of the problem.

Try jumping the fuel pump short connector (the one with the rubber boot next to the AFM) This will make sure the fuel pump runs when the key is on. See if that helps. If not, the FSM shows how you can check the AFM to see if it is a problem.

Another possibility is a large vac leak. Check the intake tube and the smaller tube that goes into the RE-EGI chamber. If one of these is leaking bad, the air won't flow through the AFM and get measured. It also keeps the AFM door from opening, which shuts off your fuel pump.

Good luck.

Kent

jason_child

I got someone in the car to start it well i held the afm door open and it still stalled out, aslo as far as i could tell in the dark there seemed to be no vac leaks. my moneys on the afm being shot, but is this very common??? and is there someway to temp over ride it to check if it is the afm???

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

ahh kent, the EGI maniac. good input how's france man?

as jason said the AFM door has tons of freeplay. nothing is jammed up in there.

i am thinking AFM is a possibility. would jumping the fuel pump under the dash work in the same method as it would on the plug you mentioned? im not familiar with your method.

there is definetaly no vac. leaks. i've checked that before. if i can just jumper the fuel relay that sounds like the best idea so far?

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Do the jumper on the fuel pump connector (the one with the rubber boot next to the AFM). When this connector is jumped, the fuel pump should run whenever the key is 'ON' (just like the earlier 1st gens). Another way to test if the switch in the AFM is working is to turn the key to 'ON' and push the AFM door open. You should be able to hear the fuel pump running.

If the fuel pump runs, there could still be an issue with the AFM. You can remove the AFM and check the resistances as given in the AFM. Another thing you can do is to see if there are any error code on the ECU. I have a write-up in the 1st gen archives about doing this. The SE error code checking is pretty primative, but may help you find a place to start looking for the problem.

Edit: Hey Murray. How's it going? France is good, but I sure miss the 7. Jumping the connector is easy. It is right next to the AFM. Get a piece of wire and stick one end in each terminal of the connector.

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

Kent, sounds easy enough. i'll give'er a shot tommorow. hopefully it will keep running. if it does work, im guessing the relay needs to be replaced, correct?

its going good here, after all your help the black FB is going pretty strong bet you cant wait to get home and rip around in yours!

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

If the jumper fixes it, then the switch in the AFM is bad. If it runs fine otherwise, you could leave the jumper in place and use the car until you can grab another AFM.

Glad to hear your other 7 is still running good. Yes, I can't wait to get back to mine. I will probably be starting a major restoration project with it then, though. I will finally have the time/money to get it in the condition that I want. Should be fun.

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

well i jumpered that plug as you said and it seems to work.. so the car will stay running and drive now , trouble is it doesnt always start. i have to play around turning on/off the ignition til i can hear the fuel relay clicking. then it usually starts. do you think its still the AFM? or relay?

also dropped in a new battery, hooked up the rad fan, ran heater hoses to where they should be, fixed the idle and put some fresh gas in. think it still needs a fuel filter, when the RPMs get above 4000 or so it really starts vibrating and chugging along. i think it could be clutch chatter too since the car sat so long.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Glad that works. If it is being intermittant like that even when jumpered, I would take a look at the ignition switch and the fuel pump relay. Either the relay isn't getting the signal to energize or perhaps the relay is sticking. I don't remember where it is located offhand. I think it is under the dash, though. Search for "fuel pump relay bypass". If doing the bypass fixes it, then the relay may be bad. You can get to make sure the relay is always getting the signal to turn on with a voltmeter.

If the relay is bad, replace it. Then see if things work without the jumper (for the fuel pump that you have in place). If it does, everything is good. If not, you will have to pull the AFM and test it.

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

ya, thats why i mentioned jumping from there earlier, but as in the engine bay i'd like to find where the damn relay is, since i have most of the EGI system removed from my other 13b i should logically be able to find the relay and replace it.

thanks for the input kent.

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

i tried that fuel pump relay bypass on the SE and it didnt do anything from what i could tell. where that plug for the relay is, is totally different than on my black car, for one -- its a blue plug and i cant really see where the back of the wires go, but the female plugs are the same so i gave it a shot and no real change. fairly sure the fuel pump is coming on when its supposed to, it may be more likely its the injectors that arent getting the signal to fire.

the car doesnt even need to be jumpered to start now that it has its own battery. randomely i can hear the injectors *clicking* sometimes when i turn the key to "ON" and other times it wont. all thats left is the AFM....

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

i just checked and swapped the AFM, its gotta be the relay. this other AFM is doing the exact same thing.

i cant for the life of me find the actual relay under the dash. just the plug thats for jumping it, and those wires look like they go into the harness. hmmmm

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

ok. hate to bump my own thread so many times but i think i may have found the cause. the car will not start unless i can hear those "clicking" sounds. i believe one is injectors and the others seem to be coming from these solenoids (in pic)

when its making all the proper clicking noises to start and stay running i can hear these working, the yellow one and the center solenoids to the right of that. i'm not really sure what the purpose of these are, thought they are just for emissions.

anyways. i think i have these left over from when i swapped the holley on my black FB. maybe tommorow night i can see if swapping them helps. i do not believe it is the AFM or relay anymore since the fuel pump does come on.

i'd like to know what the purpose of these solenoids are and if they could possible be the problem thought!

Kent? where are ya bud?

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Here I am. Gotta remember it's 9 hours later here.

When you bypass the relay, does the pump run when the key is on without the jumper?

So maybe its not the AFM or relay, then. One thing that comes to mind is a bad trailing ignitor. The ECU needs this signal to fire the injectors. However, on my car, usually it wouldn't start then all of a sudden the tach would start bouncing while cranking and then would start. Does your tach bounch while cranking?

Those solenoids shouldn't have anything to do with it. The green is for vacuum advance control. The orange is to bump up fuel pressure during hot starts. The two cylindrical ones are just to try to maintain an 800 rpm idle. Try to adjust the TPS to fix the erratic clicking of the solenoids. You usually can't hear the injectors firing. They should only fire when cranking or running anyway.

I will check on the fuel pump relay to make sure that is the right plug you are looking at.

Good luck.

Paradox

iTrader: (1)

hey again kent, i think i've narrowed it down some more

the fuel pump coming on doesnt seem to be a problem jumpered or not. then again im not 100% sure that blue plug (under the dash) is the correct place to jumper the relay.

i replaced the green and yellow solenoids from my leftover EFI parts and also swapped the "switching solenoid valve" and "relief solenoid valve" on the exhaust side of the engine. this i thought could be the problem since i figured out that the switching valve is what makes the clicking noises when the engine will start. i also checked the main relay and that is coming on all the time and has 12v going to it.

soo... any idea's why these switching solenoids (FSM - fuel and emissions 13b - chap. 4b) when working, starts the car, but other times the car just starts up for a few seconds then dies? maybe it's something unrelated since i dont even really know what these solenoids do.

seems kind of odd that the car does infact only run when these are working. i guess it was the clicking of these i heard and thought was the injectors afterall. heh.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Those shouldn't have anything to do with it. They are just to control the ACV for directing air from the air pump to the main cat and such. They are just for emissions.

So we know the fuel pump is running. Does the tach bounce when cranking (the times where it doesn't start)? If not, then the ECU is not getting a signal from the trailing and the injectors are not firing.

Also, you said that you had to turn the key a few times to get the fuel pump running or the solenoids clicking. I wonder if it could be electrical like in your ignition switch. Maybe when they are clicking, the solenoids and the ECU are getting power and when they don't click they (and the ECU) are not getting power.

Take a look at the fusible links (the two together that are only in the GSL-SE). Maybe replace with 2nd gen style fuses (darkfrost has a write-up on this) if you are not sure about them. Then maybe check the voltages at the ECU when it is not starting. That way we can see if it is something electrical with either the ECU or injectors. Also check the leading ignition to make sure you are getting spark.

Good luck.

Kent

jason_child

paradox what year afm did u use because after tellin u the s4 worked i did some more research and found out only the gls-se afm works for the gsl-se the s4 uses completely different voltages. so if u checked it with ur s4 one then that is probably the problem
(docholiday on bcrx7, has 2 afms in vancouver so u could pm him if u want) also i found one in langford for 50 bucks

LongDuck

After reading through this thread, I'm with the addict on checking out your Fusible Links - the one marked INJECTION specifically, and if they are fine (replace them, since they can 'look' okay, but still not work) then start looking at the wiring harness going to the fuel injectors, and then the battery grounds to the engine.

The SE can be a bit finicky on startup because the ECU has to interpret a lot of signals to get a good start sequence, but it's 20 year old technology, and still works just fine.

Also, the Vent and Vacuum solenoids (orange and green) are not related to the problem with the injectors, more than likely, they are simply showing a 'symptom' when you hear them click - that means they're getting power. If they're not getting power (not clicking), then you're probably ALSO not getting power to the injectors (they are on the same harness).

As a last suggestion, try swapping the position of your coils. The leads for your trailing ignition go to the ECU to trigger both the Tach, and the firing cycle for the injectors. If the coil isn't powered, or isn't firing, you will not get ignition to either injector. This may sound strange, but that fact that this is an intermittent problem is actually a good thing - if it were broken all the time, it'd be awfully hard to troubleshoot. On that note, when it IS running, carefully pull on the wiring harnesses to see if there's an intermittent short that's keeping the engine from firing on startup - it could be something simple like the injector harness shorting out...

Also, the fuel 'short plug' is right next to the AFM and is green in color with 2-poles. If you short these poles with a piece of wire with 2 spade connectors crimped in place, you can test your fuel system without the engine spinning - good for testing injector seals with the intake system off.

HTH, and keep the thread going - you'll get it figured out;