resjsu

My car has been having a lot of trouble lately and I think the ignition is a big part of that. I recently replaced a blown igniter with one from the pick n pull and my car is running badly.


So I have read the writeups and diagrams and have questions.

On the geocities page that i cannot view at the moment (said exceeded transfer limit or something) it said I needed:

1] 3 igniters but i could use 1 only? So since my 84 gs comes stock with 2 does this meen I need 1 more or do i need 3 more BESIDES those?

2] I have asked kragen and autozone for HEI Igniters and they keep asking for a year and application and what not? I thought these were universal?


3] I know I have 2 round coils located on the left side of the engine bay. In the write up it says i need 3 coils? Same question.... do i need one more or 3 completely different ones?


4] In all the pictures i see 2 coils located on the tower... which coils are these... the new ones or could i use the stock ones in place?


Basically how many igniters and coils do i need NOT including whats on my car?
So yeah im confused about this tuff and any useful input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Aure

DAVID GRIMES

You need 1 more ignitor, 1 more coil for a total of 3 ignitors and 3 coils.

You can do DLIDFIS with the J109 ignitors instead of HEI.

Do a search on DLIDFIS and read the Jeff20B ones. His posts have lots of explanations and diagrams, etc.

resjsu

No you do a search, it is not clear if he meens 3 more besides your stock ones or not. I read it over and over and in the pictures I could not tell if his stock igniters were still on his distributor and he had 3 new igniters or not.


But you answered my questions, awesome man.

Thanks,
Aure

resjsu

k still stuck....
In this picture
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=72467
i see 3 igniters... one is left in its stock position and wheres the other one that should be on the left of the distributor? was it removed and is now part of the pair on the right?

DAVID GRIMES

Yes, it is now part of the pair on the right.

resjsu

AWESOME!

thanks again man,
Aure

resjsu

Ok one more comment/question.

In his writeup Jeff says that this is a "end all of rotary ignition problems."

I know one of the rotary ignition problems is the weak system design But isn't the other problem the weak igniters always going out?

This is why im doing a dlidfis. Ive already had 2 igniters (from the junkyards) give out on me. I had to push my car across 3 lanes of freeway traffic the last time.

So is this system going to prevent them from going out...probably not....

so should I go buy 3 new HEI igniters to garuntee they will not die? Keep in mind i commute 2 hours roundtrip everyday so I really dont want to keep changing these igniters.


Also I still dont know what to ask for at kragen/autozone/napa.... I ask for GM HEI Igniters and they want to know;
1] what year
2] what application


Thanks again guys, I think this is one of my last replies to dlidfis.ol.

Aure

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

The ignitors have aluminum on the back, yes? What purpose does aluminum serve here? It acts as a heat transfer medium. Your junkyard ignitors failed because you didn't deal with this surface.

I always clean the backs and apply a little heat sink compound.

Oh, and to answer your basic question asked in a PM, the answer is:

T= top = trailing
L= lower = leading

Very easy to remember that way.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Oh right, which GM model. A '79 Corvette I think is the right one to ask for. Be prepared for them to cost more than $17.00 each if purchasing from Schuck's/Checker/Kragen.

The Bosch round coil is the same size and shape as a stock Diamond, and the inductance and all the other 'features' are compatible with J-109 ignitors. Just tell them you need a coil for a 1st gen but make sure it's for '81-'85. Don't ask for an '80 or '79. At least don't ask for a '79 since they had points (but I'm sure you already knew that).

resjsu

No Clue, but thanks Jeff20B for your answers and patience.


Anyways just to make this thread a little more useful, I am going to put up some answers I received in PM's because a lot of this stuff was confusing to me and so I know there has to be at least 1 more person with the same confusion,.

So thanks to Jeff20Bm, Wackyracer and David Grimes here is some more info on DLIDFIS.

QUESTION 1:I swear man last question here!
in the thread david has 4 coils that i can see? is this just his own method? i am only going to use 3 coils.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=dlidfis

ANSWER 1:
Ok, you'll notice that the coil closest to the strut tower lacks a high tension wire. It's just sitting there doing nothing other than holding the trailing coil in. The stock coil holder requires two coils because it only has one bolt and the holding pressure is spread across both coils. One way to remedy this is to find a short pipe of the same outer diameter to replace the coil. You could then keep the stock trailing coil location while putting two other coils closer to the engine, kinda like David has done.



QUESTION 2:Hello,
I need to figure this out.....

On my car stock, I have 2 igniters. Your diagram calls for 3 igniters total. Is this number including or not including the igniters on my stock car?


ANSWER 2:
You only need three ignitors and three coils total. However one of the easiest ways to make it work would be to purchase two GM HEI ignitors and one Bosch coil. I'll explain why. GM HEI ignitors are cheap and plentiful. This leaves you with one spare stock ignitor.

Leave the stock ignitor in the trailing position and file down two male quick disconnects so they'll fit in the leading plug after you remove the stock leading ignitor. Look at the little pins in the back of the ignitor for an idea. Make sure they're snug so they won't fall out (don't file them too small). Then use the two stock coils for leading since they match, and hook the new coil to the trailing since it most likely won't match the two stockers. Does that make sense?

It's up to you where you place all this stuff in the engine bay. I can't offer any suggestions because I've never done it myself in a first gen. Make sure you use enough aluminum to make an adequate heat sink for the GM HEI ignitors because they get hot.

Search the forum for other peoples' DLIDFIS installs and try asking around for tips and tricks. I can't think of anything else.

Hope this helps someone.

Thanks again guys.


-Aure

resjsu

Sorry one more thing that would be helpful is to add spark plug wires into the diagram somehow, just a thought.

resjsu

http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/dlidfis.html
In the diagram, are 5 and 8 just the connections on the distributor cap?


Also I have 2nd gen spark plug wires, im assuming i can just use those so I dont have to worry about plug wire length? theres no difference in conductivity or anything correcT?

DAVID GRIMES

For mounting the new coil(s), check out the respeed coil mounts. I know they have them in one or two gang. They were out of stock for awhile, but maybe they fired the CNC machine up again.

If you go the J109 or the HEI route, either way make sure you make provisions for heat dissipation (like Jeff says) with heat sink paste. Also, use an aluminum base/shelf/box to mount them on/in so that the heat can leave instead of build up.

BTW, I am still running my two original J109's from 1981. I'd say they are very reliable. Also, you can snag good used ones from forum members or from ebay for $15 to $25 easily.

Our stock ignitions are adequate. I would not say they are viewed as being weak by any means. They can be improved on, just as most OE sytems eventually can.

No opinion on 2nd gen wires or whether they offer anything over the FB wires. If I ever use anything besides NGK stock wires, I'd just go ahead and get some 10mm cut-to-fits and put that puppy to rest once and for all.

resjsu

im not saying fc wires are better, but I read that positioning the coils is a pain sometimes because the plug wires arent long enough or something. So since I have 4 long 2nd gen wires i could use those.


thanks for the info.



Aure

resjsu

So I got my igniters Niehoff brand and one thing i cant seem to figure out is which side is positive or negative or if it matters at all?

I know B is POSITIVE POWER and C is NEGATIVE GROUND. But on the other side of the igniter there are no b's and c's but instead a W and G and also that W's prong is bigger then G's prong.

Do I just assume since positive is on the right on one side, it is also on the right of the other?

thanks
Aure

resjsu

I understand the system now after staring at it except for a few things.
http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/dlidfis.html (for reference)

Ok so i got my leading coils (#3's) connected to my leading igniters (#4's) and those are wired to what ? it is #5, its just that i dont know what it is.

So looking for an answer i turn to this picture
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=72467
where is looks like the 2 leading igniters (#4's) hook into another igniter! thats not on the diagram? And I can't even see where the trailing igniters wires hook up to?

On the diagram 5 and 8 arent represented as igniters so what are they? is this what you were talking about gutted igniters that are just there to pass currents?


So BAsically I have the system down except for NUMBERS 5 and 8... no clue as to what these are.

I swear I will eventually get this....remember now this is the kindest section on rx7club.com......lol

mcw3

5 & 8 represent the pickups inside the distributor. You don't have to worry about 8 cause you don't move the trailing anywhere. For 5, you'll have to connect it to both ignitors (from Jeffs page)

resjsu

ok so 5 is a fully functional igniter?

But earlier in this thread someone said that i remove the igniter on the left side of the distributor cap and it goes with another to form the new pair? so again what is 8?

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Don't use XLR cable. LOL

That picture is of my rotary powered MG Midget project. I happened to have a dead ignitor which I gutted to act as a wire pass-through. I can see how it can be confusing. If I had to do it over again, I'd simply file down some male quick disconnects because it's less time consuming and a whole lot easier.I thought this was covered already. At the 'Legend' on my DLIDFIS page, it states, and I quote:The ignitor on the front side (left side? uh, I suppose) comes off and goes into storage (unless you're using J-109s, in which case it will be used). Two filed-down male quick disconnects go into the plastic (nylon?) pickup plug, paying attention to the wire polarity and color (red and green) and extending them over to the firewall at which point they Y apart and connect to the two ignitors (in parallel, obviously), again checking to make sure polarity is correct. Then connect the B and C terminals to their respective positions on the coils, as you stated you already understand, and connecting power to B/+ and the tach to your trailing coil's - (should already be there).

I know this stuff forward and backward so it's actually pretty hard to lay it all out in a linear fashion. I'm sure others can fill in the gaps.

Oh, one thing about the G and W terminals on the GM HEI ignitors... I don't recall which goes to where. You'd think G is the same on both ignitors, and S and W would be the same, but from the two times I used GM HEI ignitors, I had a chance to observe the reluctor with a timing light once and noticed it was off by several degrees (and the engine wasn't running right). Actually, at first I tried to find the timing mark on the pulley and it was off by something like 40 degrees or there abouts. Anyway, I flipped the W and G wires and the timing was right-on. Try looking at the reluctor with a timing light when you're done. One of its tips should be right next to the leading pickup's inner steel core. It's a trip to fire up your engine on direct fire leading after removing the dizzy cap. The expression on peoples' faces is priceless. You can win bets if you tend to hang out with a bunch of piston heads. Just remember to disable the trailing ignitor before you fire it up to avoid stray sparks inside the dizzy cap.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Uh oh, it appears you don't fully inderstand the terminals after all. C is not negative ground. The W and G terminals are the same as S and G of the J-109 (well, practically the same).

Ok, this is not just for your benefit, as I'm sure the rest of the forum will appreciate my effort, but please understand that I can't for the life of me recall whether W and G crossover perfectly to S and G, or if it's actually supposed to be W=G and G=S. You'll have to determine that for yourself. I already dropped a clue for one way to find out (timing light to observe the pulley and/or reluctor itself, but that assumes you got as far firing it up and had it run well enough for you to test it). Also, and I'll say this again since I'm sure many a coil and ignitor have been destroyed in the process, that the ignitor C and coil negative or - is NOT a negative ground. Infact, the only item in this circuit that does have a negative ground is one of the screw holes in the HEI ignitor. The screw grounds the circuitry inside the ignitor module to the aluminum heatsink which must be grounded to the vehicle chassis. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the C terminal of the ignitor or the - terminal of the coil. Again, the two are completely seperate. One great way to cement this fact in your brain would be for you to do me a favor and walk over to your car with a test light. Turn the ignition to the ON position but don't start the engine. Ground the aligator clip and touch the pointed probe to the + terminal of your coil. It lights up. Next touch it to the - terminal. What happens? IT LIGHTS UP. Why? Well, that's all for tonight.

resjsu

I think im done asking questions for now.

Im going to try it today.

Ill post pics and probably have just a few more questions...

Thanks again


-Aure

resjsu

Ok so i thought I wired everything up correctly but i guess not.
The car starts but very weak and I have to keep giving it gas for it to stay on!


Here are some things im not certain of so correct me if Im wrong.

My 2 leading coils have plug wires go to the 2 leading spark plugs.
My trailing coil has a plug wire going to the center most connection of the distributor.
The 2 trailing plug wires have been moved to leading 1 and 2.

Now this is where i most likely screwed up i think:
I was following David Myers' install pics and noticed his relay only has 4 prongs and mine has 5. On the back of the box it specifiec which is for power and ground and then there is:

1 prong for switch method? I assumed this was to be connected to the + terminal in my leading coil?


2 prongs for lamps? I connected these to the + terminals on the leading coils also?

any suggestions.....

im on my way toi take pics....


See where our setup differs is that I used both my old coils as my leading coils and he did not. So since he connected a wire to his old coil that he did not use simply because the ignition switch was attached to it, what should i do considering I am using that coil?

resjsu

crap i dont know how to post a picture in here damnit!

resjsu

Ok 2 more quesitons:
Since im using my old coils, do i disconnect everything that is cnnected to them, not related to the new dlidfis wiring?

resjsu

also i dont knoww hy but my gauge lights stay on after key is off and out