debris IN my dynamic chamber, what to do?
10-04-09, 01:15 AM
#26
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If it fires when you pull the ECU away from the body of the car, then you have a problem with the harness somewhere nearby.
I'd find some way to hold it in place, test that the car will fire up and run, and from there, start backtracking the harness behind the dash to determine where the short might be.
Aside from that, I don't have an FSM to tell you whether the #'s you got were good.
I'd find some way to hold it in place, test that the car will fire up and run, and from there, start backtracking the harness behind the dash to determine where the short might be.
Aside from that, I don't have an FSM to tell you whether the #'s you got were good.
(from mice) and all readings from the ECU's pins don't disappear or change when I move the harnesses around. I included the FSM's values you should have in the above post(the FSM values follow the "," after the pin's description and prior to the "--"), followed by what "I got" when I tested them. FSM isn't neccessarily needed to interpret my results, but I don't know what the values I got mean except that something is messed up. What about the above described electronic static coming from the rat's nest area?
10-11-09, 10:55 PM
#27
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help...anyone?
here are the ECU pin test results again...As you can see there are huge discrepancies in the voltage readings for pins a,b,e,h,k,and n...
ECU pins A-V voltage readings are all withing spec(larger plug) following results are from the small plug (a-n):
a--swithing solenoid valve, should be ~12V--I got ~.122 V
b--relief sloenoid valve control unit, should be ~12V--I got .47 V
c--checking connector, should be~0V--I got 0.075V
d--vacuum control solenoid valve (T/L), should be ~12V--I got 11.4V
e--pressure regulator control valve, should be below 1.5V--I got 11.3V
f--checking connector,should be~ 0V--I got 0.076V
h--vent solenoid valve, should be below 1.5V with throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got11.3V
i--clutch switch--ok
j--neutral switch--ok
k--water temperature switch, shouyld be below 1.5V when above 15 degrees C.--I got 11.6V
l--intake air temp. sensor, should be 8.5V-10.5V at 20 degrees C--I got 9.1V
m--air-con. switch--ok
n--vacuum control valve, should be~12V if throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got 1.2V
Are these discrepancies indicative of the ECU being bad or the sensors or circuits associated with those pins all bad? Would this be why it won't run and currently won't even start? Anyone?
ECU pins A-V voltage readings are all withing spec(larger plug) following results are from the small plug (a-n):
a--swithing solenoid valve, should be ~12V--I got ~.122 V
b--relief sloenoid valve control unit, should be ~12V--I got .47 V
c--checking connector, should be~0V--I got 0.075V
d--vacuum control solenoid valve (T/L), should be ~12V--I got 11.4V
e--pressure regulator control valve, should be below 1.5V--I got 11.3V
f--checking connector,should be~ 0V--I got 0.076V
h--vent solenoid valve, should be below 1.5V with throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got11.3V
i--clutch switch--ok
j--neutral switch--ok
k--water temperature switch, shouyld be below 1.5V when above 15 degrees C.--I got 11.6V
l--intake air temp. sensor, should be 8.5V-10.5V at 20 degrees C--I got 9.1V
m--air-con. switch--ok
n--vacuum control valve, should be~12V if throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got 1.2V
Are these discrepancies indicative of the ECU being bad or the sensors or circuits associated with those pins all bad? Would this be why it won't run and currently won't even start? Anyone?
10-12-09, 02:23 AM
#28
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I can't get it fire anymore no matter what I do with the ECU position and associated harnesses. Anyway, when it did still fire, it refuses to actually run. I visually inspected as much of the wires I could, don't see any chew throughs
(from mice) and all readings from the ECU's pins don't disappear or change when I move the harnesses around. I included the FSM's values you should have in the above post(the FSM values follow the "," after the pin's description and prior to the "--"), followed by what "I got" when I tested them. FSM isn't neccessarily needed to interpret my results, but I don't know what the values I got mean except that something is messed up. What about the above described electronic static coming from the rat's nest area?
(from mice) and all readings from the ECU's pins don't disappear or change when I move the harnesses around. I included the FSM's values you should have in the above post(the FSM values follow the "," after the pin's description and prior to the "--"), followed by what "I got" when I tested them. FSM isn't neccessarily needed to interpret my results, but I don't know what the values I got mean except that something is messed up. What about the above described electronic static coming from the rat's nest area?
I listened to your engine start and stall MP3s. It sounded like a fuel/cut of some kind. It definitely started fine and died - been there. A bad AFM switch will produce these symptoms(confirmed). In my case it started strongly every time and died with the same 3-3.5k rpm symptoms. Occasionally, it would take a throttle input and it would rev higher. It did managed to remain running maybe 1 out of 20 times (it was an AFM flapper switch problem):
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...2&d=1211496703
(see T connector, pg 301 haynes, B-25 Short connector of fuel). Sounds like you have done this bypass already.
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/19...g_Diagrams.pdf
pg15, I have read that a circuit open relay may also cause these results:
I hate to suggest a continuity check. But given the posts and last ECU values you measured in msg#27 it sounds like some? of the wiring / connectors are corroded and suspect.
It sounds like you are chasing multiple problems now.
You could also (previously) have weak / failing coils:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ymptoms&page=4
10-12-09, 02:32 AM
#29
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Also meant to mention you might measure the fuel flow...
IIRC, I saw a post earlier where you said it flowed - A measure of flow rate with the AFM bypass jumpered on might tell you it is dying ...
IIRC, I saw a post earlier where you said it flowed - A measure of flow rate with the AFM bypass jumpered on might tell you it is dying ...
10-12-09, 02:55 PM
#30
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Hi Seven...;
I listened to your engine start and stall MP3s. It sounded like a fuel/cut of some kind. It definitely started fine and died - been there. A bad AFM switch will produce these symptoms(confirmed). In my case it started strongly every time and died with the same 3-3.5k rpm symptoms. Occasionally, it would take a throttle input and it would rev higher. It did managed to remain running maybe 1 out of 20 times (it was an AFM flapper switch problem):
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...2&d=1211496703
(see T connector, pg 301 haynes, B-25 Short connector of fuel). Sounds like you have done this bypass already.
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/19...g_Diagrams.pdf
pg15, I have read that a circuit open relay may also cause these results:
I hate to suggest a continuity check. But given the posts and last ECU values you measured in msg#27 it sounds like some? of the wiring / connectors are corroded and suspect.
It sounds like you are chasing multiple problems now.
You could also (previously) have weak / failing coils:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ymptoms&page=4
I listened to your engine start and stall MP3s. It sounded like a fuel/cut of some kind. It definitely started fine and died - been there. A bad AFM switch will produce these symptoms(confirmed). In my case it started strongly every time and died with the same 3-3.5k rpm symptoms. Occasionally, it would take a throttle input and it would rev higher. It did managed to remain running maybe 1 out of 20 times (it was an AFM flapper switch problem):
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...2&d=1211496703
(see T connector, pg 301 haynes, B-25 Short connector of fuel). Sounds like you have done this bypass already.
http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/manuals/19...g_Diagrams.pdf
pg15, I have read that a circuit open relay may also cause these results:
I hate to suggest a continuity check. But given the posts and last ECU values you measured in msg#27 it sounds like some? of the wiring / connectors are corroded and suspect.
It sounds like you are chasing multiple problems now.
You could also (previously) have weak / failing coils:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ymptoms&page=4
By a continuity check you mean testing from the ECU connector end to that wire's inside engine bay end? ECU end of connector shown no corrosion whatsoever, and my tested values don't change at all when I pull around on the harness.
Haven't checked fuel flow, but when I had the line off and the plug jumpered, it COVERED my entire driver's side fender in the one sec. I had the key turned forward...Could all my bad readings be a bad ECU?
10-12-09, 10:29 PM
#31
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Thanks for the reply...afm flapper checked out fine, all values withing FSM specs...
By a continuity check you mean testing from the ECU connector end to that wire's inside engine bay end? ECU end of connector shown no corrosion whatsoever, and my tested values don't change at all when I pull around on the harness.
Haven't checked fuel flow, but when I had the line off and the plug jumpered, it COVERED my entire driver's side fender in the one sec. I had the key turned forward...Could all my bad readings be a bad ECU?
By a continuity check you mean testing from the ECU connector end to that wire's inside engine bay end? ECU end of connector shown no corrosion whatsoever, and my tested values don't change at all when I pull around on the harness.
Haven't checked fuel flow, but when I had the line off and the plug jumpered, it COVERED my entire driver's side fender in the one sec. I had the key turned forward...Could all my bad readings be a bad ECU?
BTW, my afm switch problem was intermittent. Car stalled twice many months apart but could be restarted. Then, for several days, it would not stay running at all with the the 3k rev and stall. Later it stayed running...
You could time filling some measured volume to make sure it is good, but the fuel flow sounds like it is good as well.
Don't know about the ECU.
If it is not starting at all now, you may have another problem (coil/igniter?).
10-12-09, 10:41 PM
#32
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The whole point of me trying to get this car running again is just to comp. test the engine to see if it's worth pulling and keeping before the car goes into the woods to Rust In Peace...It has extreme bin/floor rot, hasn't been inspected in over ten years. Since I can't get it running anymore to do a proper comp. test, the last time I messed with it I found a cheap chinese comp. tester in my father's garage and taped the pressure release in. I put the battery out of my D.D. SE in it, took out both trailing, disconnected ignitors, unplugged fuel pump, held it W.O.T. and turned it over for a few seconds. As far as I could tell, both rotors produced somewhere around 60 psi (3 equal bounces). With the engine cold, and not having been actually running in years, is this good? Should I at least keep it to attemp a rebuild someday? I'm ready to give up on it, and the weather is quickly (if not allready) turned bad enough for me not to mess with it anymore at this time. Just want some opinions I guess.
10-13-09, 11:57 PM
#33
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The whole point of me trying to get this car running again is just to comp. test the engine to see if it's worth pulling and keeping before the car goes into the woods to Rust In Peace...It has extreme bin/floor rot, hasn't been inspected in over ten years. Since I can't get it running anymore to do a proper comp. test, the last time I messed with it I found a cheap chinese comp. tester in my father's garage and taped the pressure release in. I put the battery out of my D.D. SE in it, took out both trailing, disconnected ignitors, unplugged fuel pump, held it W.O.T. and turned it over for a few seconds. As far as I could tell, both rotors produced somewhere around 60 psi (3 equal bounces). With the engine cold, and not having been actually running in years, is this good? Should I at least keep it to attemp a rebuild someday? I'm ready to give up on it, and the weather is quickly (if not allready) turned bad enough for me not to mess with it anymore at this time. Just want some opinions I guess.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2n...ion_check.html
Try the second half of the test with the valve closed.
The stock Mazda compression tester also depends on the cranking rpm. The swapped battery would help. Starter could still be weak and the compression numbers would be higher.
10-14-09, 02:30 PM
#34
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Probably good . The 3 equal bounces is a good sign - meaning nothing is sticking. Try this:
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2n...ion_check.html
Try the second half of the test with the valve closed.
The stock Mazda compression tester also depends on the cranking rpm. The swapped battery would help. Starter could still be weak and the compression numbers would be higher.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2n...ion_check.html
Try the second half of the test with the valve closed.
The stock Mazda compression tester also depends on the cranking rpm. The swapped battery would help. Starter could still be weak and the compression numbers would be higher.
10-14-09, 04:41 PM
#35
I'll try to take another look at your values sometime tonight. I do not think you have a compression issue. It acts like a sensor/wiring/vac leak problem to me. Don't worry about most of those ECU values being off. A few of them are related to TPS adjusment (they are either at 12v or 0v) and even if your TPS was good and adjusted, the reading would still be off in the cold condition. At least one other of those is also off due to the engine being cold. None of those that are listed being off would cause the issues that you are having. I need to look closer, though, as perhaps one of these readings might point to a problem somewhere else.
Another quick check you can do is to check for error codes on the ECU. I have a writeup in the archive on how to do this. The ECU is not very sophisticated, but it will tell you if one of the major sensors is unplugged, shorted, or bad (AFM, water temp sensor, etc.).
Another quick check you can do is to check for error codes on the ECU. I have a writeup in the archive on how to do this. The ECU is not very sophisticated, but it will tell you if one of the major sensors is unplugged, shorted, or bad (AFM, water temp sensor, etc.).
10-14-09, 05:45 PM
#36
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I've got a buddy who used to use two batteries in series with an automatic starter in order to spin carbon-sealed brigeport motors back in the day. He'd go across one battery to get 12V to trigger the solenoid, but feed the hot post on the starter with the 24V available on the second battery. He swore that the car would start anywhere, anytime, but that he was always fearful of an electrical fire. Had he spent more time thinking about it and making it safe, he said that he'd still be driving it today like that. Since you don't have to worry about keeping the car safe day after day and only need to test compression, it might be a good option.
10-14-09, 10:24 PM
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I'll try to take another look at your values sometime tonight. I do not think you have a compression issue. It acts like a sensor/wiring/vac leak problem to me. Don't worry about most of those ECU values being off. A few of them are related to TPS adjusment (they are either at 12v or 0v) and even if your TPS was good and adjusted, the reading would still be off in the cold condition. At least one other of those is also off due to the engine being cold. None of those that are listed being off would cause the issues that you are having. I need to look closer, though, as perhaps one of these readings might point to a problem somewhere else.
Another quick check you can do is to check for error codes on the ECU. I have a writeup in the archive on how to do this. The ECU is not very sophisticated, but it will tell you if one of the major sensors is unplugged, shorted, or bad (AFM, water temp sensor, etc.).
Another quick check you can do is to check for error codes on the ECU. I have a writeup in the archive on how to do this. The ECU is not very sophisticated, but it will tell you if one of the major sensors is unplugged, shorted, or bad (AFM, water temp sensor, etc.).
10-15-09, 06:09 AM
#38
For the clicking, I would unplug the solenoids one-by-one until it goes away. It could be a bad solenoid or might point to an ECU problem. None of the solenoids will cause not to run. You could try to unplug the one causing the noise and try to start again.
10-15-09, 07:07 AM
#39
here are the ECU pin test results again...As you can see there are huge discrepancies in the voltage readings for pins a,b,e,h,k,and n...
ECU pins A-V voltage readings are all withing spec(larger plug) following results are from the small plug (a-n):
a--swithing solenoid valve, should be ~12V--I got ~.122 V
b--relief sloenoid valve control unit, should be ~12V--I got .47 V
c--checking connector, should be~0V--I got 0.075V (okay)
d--vacuum control solenoid valve (T/L), should be ~12V--I got 11.4V (okay)
e--pressure regulator control valve, should be below 1.5V--I got 11.3V (don't worry, this one is off since engine is not warm)
f--checking connector,should be~ 0V--I got 0.076V (okay)
h--vent solenoid valve, should be below 1.5V with throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got11.3V (okay, TPS not adjusted and/or due to engine being cold)
k--water temperature switch, shouyld be below 1.5V when above 15 degrees C.--I got 11.6V (this is switch in bottom of radiator, might be disconnected or broken wire)
l--intake air temp. sensor, should be 8.5V-10.5V at 20 degrees C--I got 9.1V (okay)
n--vacuum control valve, should be~12V if throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got 1.2V (okay, TPS not adjusted and/or due to engine being cold)
Are these discrepancies indicative of the ECU being bad or the sensors or circuits associated with those pins all bad? Would this be why it won't run and currently won't even start? Anyone?
ECU pins A-V voltage readings are all withing spec(larger plug) following results are from the small plug (a-n):
a--swithing solenoid valve, should be ~12V--I got ~.122 V
b--relief sloenoid valve control unit, should be ~12V--I got .47 V
c--checking connector, should be~0V--I got 0.075V (okay)
d--vacuum control solenoid valve (T/L), should be ~12V--I got 11.4V (okay)
e--pressure regulator control valve, should be below 1.5V--I got 11.3V (don't worry, this one is off since engine is not warm)
f--checking connector,should be~ 0V--I got 0.076V (okay)
h--vent solenoid valve, should be below 1.5V with throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got11.3V (okay, TPS not adjusted and/or due to engine being cold)
k--water temperature switch, shouyld be below 1.5V when above 15 degrees C.--I got 11.6V (this is switch in bottom of radiator, might be disconnected or broken wire)
l--intake air temp. sensor, should be 8.5V-10.5V at 20 degrees C--I got 9.1V (okay)
n--vacuum control valve, should be~12V if throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got 1.2V (okay, TPS not adjusted and/or due to engine being cold)
Are these discrepancies indicative of the ECU being bad or the sensors or circuits associated with those pins all bad? Would this be why it won't run and currently won't even start? Anyone?
It probably would also be worth doing a fuel pressure and volume test. When these cars sit for long periods, the tank, lines, and pump can get clogged up with rust and other crap. For volume, disconnect the feed and stick it in a gallon jug. Use the AFM or the jumper wire to turn the pump on and time for 1 minute. If everything is okay, you should fill the gallon about half-way. For pressure, tee in a fuel pressure gauge and run the pump (AFM or jumper). Should be about 37 psi with the car off and around 28 psi at idle. If you don't have a tester, I can mail mine to you and you can send it back when you are done. It would be good to have it connected while you fire it up (if you can get it to start again). This way you can see if the pump is cutting out once it starts.
Also, check your AFM door to make sure it isn't sticking (open or closed).
Kent
Last edited by gsl-se addict; 10-15-09 at 07:09 AM.
10-17-09, 04:52 PM
#40
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I added some comments above. For a and b, check that the two solenoids on the firewall are plugged in (blue and grey plugs). If they are plugged in, it still may be an artifact that the engine is cold and the TPS is maybe not adjusted correctly. I don't see anything there that would cause your issues.
It probably would also be worth doing a fuel pressure and volume test. When these cars sit for long periods, the tank, lines, and pump can get clogged up with rust and other crap. For volume, disconnect the feed and stick it in a gallon jug. Use the AFM or the jumper wire to turn the pump on and time for 1 minute. If everything is okay, you should fill the gallon about half-way. For pressure, tee in a fuel pressure gauge and run the pump (AFM or jumper). Should be about 37 psi with the car off and around 28 psi at idle. If you don't have a tester, I can mail mine to you and you can send it back when you are done. It would be good to have it connected while you fire it up (if you can get it to start again). This way you can see if the pump is cutting out once it starts.
Also, check your AFM door to make sure it isn't sticking (open or closed).
Kent
It probably would also be worth doing a fuel pressure and volume test. When these cars sit for long periods, the tank, lines, and pump can get clogged up with rust and other crap. For volume, disconnect the feed and stick it in a gallon jug. Use the AFM or the jumper wire to turn the pump on and time for 1 minute. If everything is okay, you should fill the gallon about half-way. For pressure, tee in a fuel pressure gauge and run the pump (AFM or jumper). Should be about 37 psi with the car off and around 28 psi at idle. If you don't have a tester, I can mail mine to you and you can send it back when you are done. It would be good to have it connected while you fire it up (if you can get it to start again). This way you can see if the pump is cutting out once it starts.
Also, check your AFM door to make sure it isn't sticking (open or closed).
Kent
10-19-09, 06:14 PM
#42
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I'm thinking there should allready be a gauge where my car is...If not, I'll buy one. Don't know if I'll get to messing with it anymore this year. Allready had about 6 inches of heavy heavy snow on Fri. I didn't have my D.D. SE put away yet and the snow was so heavy it accumulated, then slid off the hatch taking the wiper with it...
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