Got an '84 SE I bought a few years back for a parts car. Ran when I parked it about 1.5 yrs ago. Been trying to start it again to comp. test engine to see if it's still good before the rest goes into the woods to rest. Starts, rpms climb to about 3-4k and then just falls off. Everytime, only runs for about 1 sec. Every plug has spark; pulled the fuel line, jumpered pump connector, has fuel. Finally discovered a plastic baggie rubber banded over the intake in front of the rad.(don't remember putting one there...but sometimes I drink alot) Still does same thing. Finally pulled the tube off of the throttle body and discovered a bunch of old, damp, stained paper towels wrapped all over all the round plates the throttle opens in there. Pulled on the throttle cabel and pryed all the junk out, but there were some pieces behind the plates that I did get out, but I'm sure there was more that I couldn't see. Question...Now what? Are there likely chunks stuck down in the dynamic chamber somewhere? Preventing air?

 

Remove the manifold and flush it out!

EDIT: Good job quoting the first post there jeezus

 

It's not hard to remove, really - just takes time.

Take the black plastic intake snorkel loose from the throttle body.
Remove the teeny-tiny cotter pin to the rod that runs down to the OMP and separate the linkage from the throttle body.
Take the coolant line loose from the passenger's side of the throttle body (near the firewall), which is fed from the back of the water pump.
Loosen the 2 10mm heads on the driver's side lower section of the dynamic chamber.
Take the black plastic lump that the alternator wire attaches to, and free it from the front of the dynamic chamber. 8mm.
Disconnect your BAC electrical connectors.
Disconnect the two vacuum lines down near the BAC valve.
Disconnect the two vacuum lines at the rear of the throttle body and the four at the front.
Disconnect the TPS sensor connector
Disconnect the throttle cable and cruise cable.
With your 12mm socket, remove the four nuts at the base of the throttle body. You can see two, but the two that are hidden are on a square pattern, so you can pretty well guess where to put the ratchet.
Pull the throttle body free and disconnect the other coolant line that runs from the up-idle white plastic thing on the throttle body to the rear iron.
With the throttle body removed, just remove the four nuts and one long screw that hold the intake manifold to the lower manifold (which will stay bolted to the engine block).

Separate the plenum from the upper intake manifold and clean it. Check the upper manifold, lower manifold, plenum, and TB before trusting them again.

Check them again, just because this is a pain in the *** and you don't want to do it again.

Reassemble.

 

thanks for the detailed instructions, they are appreciated. When I do this, will I need a new gasket? Buy one? Make one? OEM?

Where can I expect to find the stuff that got sucked in? In the lower or upper manifold? In the chamber itself? In the engine itself? Thanks again.

 

Folks don't get junk sucked in like you've found. You're in uncharted territory, so we're curious what you'll find.

You can reuse the gasket most likely, especially if you take care to tap the plenum to slide the upper manifold fore and aft across the lower manifold before lifting it. Sometimes they'll tear if you just lift. If you wiggle it loose before lifting, you can almost always reuse the gasket.

 

Well, I will definately report back what I find next time I go to where it is and take the chamber off...Maybe this weekend. I'm fearful I won't find anything and it still won't run, though. Since this is a parts car and not my DD, i will try to keep the gaskets in tact and reuse them. At least I can check injector clips and whatnot with the chamber off, right?

 

Nope. to get to the injector rail, you'll need to pull the Upper Intake Manifold. The UIM comes off if you look down at the header from the passenger side with the hood open. You'll see 5 bolts (IIRC) that can be removed, allowing you to pull off the entire Dynamic Chamber, UIM, and the gaskets will stay intact. The Dynamic Chamber gaskets are the worst for cracking and you'll have to have a new one on-hand if you remove it, trust me.

If your foreign debris is rags and stuff, you stand a good chance of finding it in the Dynamic Chamber, as the airflow takes 2x90degree turns there, and they're abrupt. If you're lucky, the debris got caught there and can be easily removed by passing a coat-hanger or some other object through the piping.

If it's lower than that, it likely got into your combustion chambers, and if that's the case - who know's what you'll find. A full rebuild would determine where it got hung up. Given the design of the engine, I wouldn't expect it to be thrown out the exhaust port, either - that would be sheer luck, if it were to occur.

 

Well I got to the car today and removed the U.I.M.+dynamic chamber as an assembly. Didn't see anything in the four holes where it seperated going towards the chamber or the engine. Of course you can't see very far into them. I tried and tried and couldn't seperate the chamber from the UIM with all the nuts, bolts off. I beat around on it with a rubber mallet and tried twisting the flat part of a crow bar in the thin space between the two. Wouldn't budge. So I sprayed a whole can of carb cleaner into the uim paths and down from the top with the throttle twisted open then blew compressed air from the throttle plates with them opened out the four holes. Bunch of black goo and a very very few chunks perhaps of paper towel came out. If I blew air into intake, it seemed to really blow out the middle two paths on the bottom, but not so much the outer two paths. Anyway, put it all back together and it does the same thing. Almost always starts, climbs to about 3- 3.5 k rpm and then just falls back to zero. Running for a total of about 1-1.5 secs every time. If you step on the gas at all it makes a deep intake sound and it won't run at all or if its allready started/starting, it instantly kills it. Leading plugs are usually dry and trailing usually wet. All four have spark. All fusible links good. fuel flows from line when the connector by the air box is jumpered and the key is turned. Any ideas? Any SE experts in the area that could help?

 

If you have the whole upper and lower manifold off the car, 2 words:


Garden. Hose.

 

1. have you tried starting with the jumper in the fuel pump tester connector?

2. if the key is 'ON and you push the AFM door open, does the fuel pump run?

3. AFM plugged in?

4. Check for vac leaks. Especially in the inlet duct. Common problem is the joint in the air inlet duct. Sometimes you will be working and lean on it and it separates. Sometimes is separates on the bottom, so you don't see unless you are looking for it. This leak will cause the exact problems you are having.

 

I will have to wait until next weekend to try these suggestions. Haven't tried 1-3 yet. As far as #4, that joint was/has been seperated and the bolt in the clamp was bent and rusted and I couldn't get it back together tight. Yesterday I did finally get them joined back together properly, but it didn't make any difference.
The one thing I did think of is that I took this car's ignitors and coils to make my dlidfis on my DD a few years ago. About a year later I got another parts car and took its coils and ignitors to replace I ones on the car I'm trying to get running. I know each plug has spark, but could the coils or ignitors be bad/weak? Thanks for your help.

 

Got back to the car today...1.Tried starting with the fuel pump jumper wire in and the pump running. Still does same thing. 2.Pump does run with key on and afm door pushed open. 3.AFM is plugged in. Rechecked inlet duct, don't see anywhere its seperated or could be leaking. Tried different plugs, too and as usual when I removed old ones the trailing where soaked with gas, leading really weren't.
A few more observations: Oil is about 1 3/4 inches higher than the full mark on the dipstick. Probably gas in the oil from all the times I've tried to get it running? Is there any way having that much oil would not let the engine run? Also noticed when you turn the key forward alot of the time, but not always, I hear an electric crackle like radio static or like clicking your thumbnail down a comb's teeth. It sounds like it's coming from under the dynamic chamber from the engine compartment, and from the inside it sounds like it's coming from the ECU. I pulled the carpet up from over the ECU and it's a rusty mess in there and there was a big mouse nest up against the left side of that plate in there that houses all the electronics. Pulled nest out, didn't see any chewed wires. Does the "plate" that all that stuff sits on need to be grounded? I can't imagine it is grounded as there isn't much left of the floor there. I pulled around on all the wire bundles and connections and pulled the fat bundle away from the pass side kick plate area to check it also. Electronic crackling stopped. Tried to start again and now it NEVER fires, just turns over. I recorded a bunch of audio clips with my mp3 player I had with me today of what it sounds like when it starts but won't run after trying all the different things I did. If I edit these can I upload them in this thread? If I do, can anybody try to help me out?

 

Trying to upload some audio. I recorded .wav's with my mp3 player. Then I edited them down for size and took out as much silence inbetween starts as possible. First one is what the car does pretty much everytime I try to start it. Second is with the fuel pump jumpered to always on. Third is in two parts I recorded it after I removed the plugs, disconnected ignitors and fuel pump, turned it over a few times to clear the engine, installed some different plugs(used backups for my DD) and tried to start again. This time it ran the most it ever has since the no-start condition. The second part I tried different throttle positions(and narrated!) with different results. ALL of these will be .mp3 format, so right click on whatever it attached, save to your hdd, rename the extention from .doc or .jpg to .mp3. Then you should be able to give it a listen. Please help me out!

 

Here is the second recording.

 

Here is the last recording in two parts... Well, it didn't work. I had the two mp3's saved as .jpg's (because they are close to 250kb) but they won't upload. I could email them to anyone willing to help, maybe?
Can anyone report if they are able to download the .doc's and rename the extension to .mp3 and the audio works?

 

I'll help ya out man. Send them to Jeezusrx7@yahoo

 

Ok I downloaded the files, they save as a .doc file. If you right click and open them up with VLC player it will work.

EDIT: If it helps any, and I am sure it might not, but my brothers Miata did the same thing. It would start up then immediately die. Turned out we had the air flow sensor in backwards.

 

Ok sent, thank you much. Let me know if they work.

 

It still seems like a big vac leak to me. If the air inlet duct is disconnected, the car will do exactly what you are seeing. Check of the large vac lines and the inlet duct aagain to be sure.

Next I would test the AFM. You need just a multimeter. The test is in section 4b of the FSM.

 

Next thing I try will be the AFM multimeter test and full pin out test of ECU. I'm certain of no large vacuum leaks. If that is what's happening, would my trailing plugs be soaked when I remove them after trying to start it for a while. Also, does the plate the ECU sit on need to be grounded, or will there be sufficient grounds allready running to it (ECU)without the plate being grounded to the floor?
It's a rusted out mess down there...Thanks for the reply.

 

Okay, removed and tested AFM, and did complete pin test of ECU today(according to FSM).
AFME2-Vs)=~110 ohms
(E2-Vc)=~180 ohms
(E2-Vb)=~280 ohms
(E2-THA)=~2.4k ohms
(E1-Fc)=no reading with flap closed/~0.04 ohms when fully open
(E2-Vs)=106 ohms closed/ ~.5k ohms fully open
All these seem to be within spec. Now on to the ECU. FSM says to warm the engine to normal operating temp. prior to tests, but I can't since it won't start/run.

ECU pins A-V voltage readings are all withing spec(larger left plug) following results are from the small right plug (a-n):

a--swithing solenoid valve, should be ~12V--I got ~.122 V
b--relief sloenoid valve control unit, should be ~12V--I got .47 V
c--checking connector, 0V--I got 0.075V
d--vacuum control solenoid valve (T/L), ~12V--I got 11.4V
e--pressure regulator control valve, below 1.5V--I got 11.3V
f--checking connector, 0V--I got 0.076V
h--vent solenoid valve, below 1.5V with throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got11.3V
i--clutch switch--ok
j--neutral switch--ok
k--water temperature switch, below 1.5V when above 15 degrees C.--I got 11.6V
l--intake air temp. sensor, 8.5V-10.5V at 20 degrees C--I got 9.1V
m--air-con. switch--ok
n--vacuum control valve, ~12V if throttle sensor properly adjusted--I got 1.2V

The car no longer fires AT ALL. It used to always start, climb to ~3k rpm, then fall off, running for about 1-1.5 seconds. Ever since I pulled up the carpet, removed the dead mice and nests and messed with the ECU, it no longer fires. When I first got there today, it would fire if I grabbed the plate the ECU and other electronics are on and lifted it away from the floor about six inches. There isn't much left of the floor there, and I doubt that plate is grounded now, but does it have to be? Also, when the key is turned on, there is intermittent and frightening electric "crackle" coming from under the dynamic chamber. It sounds like something being switched on and off VERY VERY FAST. Kinda like pulling your thumbnail down the teeth of a comb. If you touch the end green and orange plugs on the rats nest, you can feel them buzzing with the noise. After I did the pin test it won't fire no matter what I do to the ECU "plate". I know it gets gas, I know each plug sparks, I am CERTAIN no breach in the inlet duct or other large vacuum leak. any ideas? Oh one other thing, I found a crappy compression tester in the garage, and got 3 equal bounces from each rotor, but only about a little above 60 psi (but the engine was cold). It used to run fine before I put it away for winter last year. Before I put it away, though, I sprayed a crap load of pennzoil marine fogging oil into the rubber tube that jumps from the TB to the dynamic chamber. In another thread ("how dose one use sea foam") LongDuck suggested against liquids in this tube, but I sprayed the oil in until it choked out the engine and shut off and I think that's the last time it ever ran...

 

I'm pretty sure the ECU needs to be grounded. Kent, you want to chime in on this one to be sure?

 

I checked the grounds in the two plugs to the ECU (B,D,S,T) They are indeed good, but the "body" of the ECU also needs ground?

 

The ECU body does not need to be grounded. All of its grounds are through the harness.Let me see if I can come up with some ideas.

 

If it fires when you pull the ECU away from the body of the car, then you have a problem with the harness somewhere nearby.

I'd find some way to hold it in place, test that the car will fire up and run, and from there, start backtracking the harness behind the dash to determine where the short might be.

Aside from that, I don't have an FSM to tell you whether the #'s you got were good.