NCross

iTrader: (18)

The day is finally almost here. Im building my first engine. I have the engine completely cleaned, sorted, and painted.

I have all the needed tools.
-Torque wrench
-3\4" drive breaker bar with 54mm socket and flywheel stopper
-Engine stand with modified bracket to mount the front iron via all 4 studs for stability
-Vasoline , brand name
-Permatex ultra black RTV

-Gasket kit from Atkins ($118 one)
-new Atkins 3mm apex seals
-New Atkins apex seal springs
-Atkins viton oil control rings
-New front and rear main seals

I plan on reusing the following as they all appear to be in spec...
-corner seals
-Side seals
-Side seal springs
-Oil control ring metals
-Bearings with slight copper showing

Am i forgetting anything, or suggestions? Ive watched several rebuild videos online including Aaron Cakes and the Aussie one so I feel pretty confident. I have the haynes manuals for first and second gens for reference. I just have a few questions to clear up.

-you place the front rotor with the tip facing the oil pan (bottom)
-You place the rear rotor with the tip facing the top of the engine

Does orientation of the rotor matter? Markings, weight divets etc? Or can you plop it down any way as long as the tip is either facing up or down and opposite of each other.

-Do you have to use hylomar? I hear negative things about it. I have seen people use RTV and Vasoline in its place. Thoughts?

NCross

iTrader: (18)

Oh, and for assembly lube can i just use engine oil?

And, the main reason i dont want to use hylomar on the coolant seals is because ive heard it can gum up new apex seals when you torque the engine down causing low compression from the hylomar squishing through the cracks.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I only use:

engine oil as assembly lube (good choice by the way)
wheel bearing grease to hold corner seals in place and to help keep coolant seals in place (not a lot, just enough)
black RTV on rotor housing legs

I also use super glue or crazy glue on the apex seal triangle tips to keep them from jumping out of place. I like to glue them at slightly less than 70mm or 80mm (12A or 13B) so they don't get popped apart during tension bolt torquing. Why? Because it's hard on the irons (could leave a small dent possibly, don't wish to take the chance) and the pne or two that don't snap apart will cause a nasty hard spot during inital hand cranking that will drive you out of your mind wondering what went wrong during the build. The last thing you want to do is pull apart a freshly stacked engine only to discover nothing technically wrong with it. So I glue them at 69.92mm to 69.98mm or just slightly less than rotor housing width. Then they seperate the first time the engine starts. The first start can be slightly stubborn due to this, but if you have a carb that's already a known working carb, it's fine. The problem I ran in to was using some off the shelf Nikkis that I had pulled off of dead engines which sat for years. I had no idea whether they would work at all, let alone how well they'd work on a fresh rebuild. The result: spent an hour trying three different carbs before I finally started. For the next fresh rebuild, I tossed on a known working carb and it started in 2 seconds of cranking. Things you learn as you go I suppose.

The things I don't use are vasoline or hylomar. Tried both. Figured out that they both suck. Hope that helps. Good luck with your build!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

To answer your question about rotor tips, the basic layout you suggested will work. But notice the oil slinger on each rotor. It is along the same corner as the bearing tab. If you can orientate these to be 180 degrees apart, such as the way you suggested (one facing oil pan, the other facing the top), that is how I do all my rebuilds.

Is it necessary? I don't know. It just makes sense to me, and I've never seen anything mentioned on this forum about it, to the best of my memory, so I just went with it.

Take a look at your rotors. You'll see there is a certain logic in what I'm suggesting.

NCross

iTrader: (18)

And aside from fingering "plenty of lube" as Aaron would say, anything else other than plenty of hand cranks and 30 seconds of starter bumping prior to startup?

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Aaron uses too much lube in my opinion. Obviously he has to say things like that on a video, but then if people are going to follow his advice verbatim, why hand out such advice? j9fd3s agrees with my observation; he uses too much lube! He also uses vasoline. No thanks. I discovered during my second rebuild that vasoline is not a good lubricant to be used on things like corner seals, to help hold them in and stuff. It also will expand the black coolant seals within minutes if you were to fully coat them like a local engien builder was known to do. I had a black coolant seal get crushed due to growing and popping out of the groove, which led to a coolant leak. It's better to use actual engine oil as assembly lube and a little wheel bearing grease due to its ability to actually lube! Vasoline tends to bind and grab on moving parts where as the grease stays smooth. When I see pics and videos of engine builds where the rotor is drowning in vasoline, I just have to shake my head and usually don't watch the rest of the video.

Something else that's different about my builds is the amount they smoke on first startup. It's not very much. Ever torn down a healthy engine for say a port job? How much oil do you find on the internals? Not very much. Just a light even coat on everything. And what if your engine was assembled with all good used seals? How much oil to use as assembly lube? Again not very much. Just enough to lightly coat stuff. That's it. It also leads to only a little puff at startup. You honestly don't want a huge batscreen style smoke show, but you'd never know any different if all you ever watch are rebuild videos. Plus they always show new side seals etc going in. You don't need new ones if your stockers are healthy, but even then on new ones, I'd again only use a light coat. They're gonna experience a light coat after the initial assembly lube burns off anyway so what's the actual difference either way? See my point?

Have you ever had an engine that would foul its spark plugs with oil? Ever asked any noob engine builders how many times they needed to pull their plugs, crank the engine over to blow out all the "liquids" (oil and fuel mixture)? If you were to ask me, I'd say more times than it should have been, where ideal is not at all. You see, once the spark plugs foul, you gotta pull and clean them off with brake cleaner, then blow with compressed air til they're dry. Also crank the engine until it blows out all the liquidy stuff, then obviously wipe up the mess you created. You need to also dissable the engine ignition because the sparks gotta go somewhere.

This process should be avoided, and it can be by using less assembly lube oil than they say to in the videos, and having a healthy known working carb with a healthy strong battery, no vacuum leaks, a good fast starter, brand new fresh gas (don't risk using old gas if the car has sat for any length of time), obviously new or clean used plugs that you know were working perfectly in the engine they came out of. Correct timing from a correctly stabbed dizzy... and it goes on like that. Lots of stuff you need to be aware of that is known to be working and set up correctly.

I've had some smokeless or nearly smokeless rebuilds fire up super fast. I've had a couple boners as well where conditions weren't perfect (slow starter, unknown carb off the shelf, poured oil down the carb to try to make it start, ended up flooding the spark plugs, old gas etc).

By the way, the inspiration for a smokeless rebuild came from Judge Ito. He said one time he built a 12A with no oil or lube of any kind, just to see if it could be done. It could! It had high compression and started up fast and easily. So if an expert like him can do it, and I've had excellent results from just a light touch of oil on my stuff (to mimic the amount found in a healthy engine torn down for a port job), why not give it a try on your first rebuild? You'll have better results than I did on my first rebuild. That engine had way too much oil and required multiple plug removals for cleaning, cranking to blow out the liquids etc. It also dripped oil past the header gasket onto the ground, prompting us to look around for the unknown oil leak on that side of the engine. Then when it finally did start, it stalled and couldn't restart until the spark plug cleaning procedure was performed again. With crap results like that I looked for ways to improve a fresh rebuild's chances of starting, and my findings were to use LESS oil, not more.

Oh and to answer the second part of your question. Do some hand cranks first, of course, to feel how the engine feels. Hopefully there won't be any hard spots. Push on each apex seal to check for spring pressure and that they are all similar feeling. One rotor moinght have tighter seals than the other (probably due to apex slot depth, which can vary a tiny bit from rotor to rotor, or you needed to clean out more carbon from the slot!).

Something I like to do before the oil pan goes on, is to install the oil pump dry with just a touch of oil in the hole where the tip goes in, also use some RTV (very thin coat) on the oil pump mating surface. Gotta have clean metal for this, hence dry install with only the center tip lubed. Just Ito recommends the RTV, or a piece of notebook paper as a gasket to seal the oil pump perfectly and reduce tiny bubbles in the oil system. I always use RTV. Then install the front cover like normal after checking end play etc. Then before the oil pickup tube goes on, fill the hole with oil. Then crank the engine by hand and watch it go down into the oil pump. Don't keep cranking because it will spill out the front cover's oil line fitting! Then making sure the mating surfaces are clean, I like some RTV on the pickup tube gasket. I think j9fd3s uses some here too. Then install properly torquing the bolts. I've seen a Hayes rebuild that lost its pickup tube which killed the bearings. I have a thread around here somewhere showing the damage upon teardown. Anyway, then install the oil pan with RTV only. Don't use the gasket! They always leak. Clean bolts, clean mating surfaces on engine and oil pan etc. I like to use a coat of RTV on both surfaces but you gotta work fast as there is a lot of surface area to cover. Nothing like a pinhole leak between beads of RTV on your pan to ruin your day (a slow dripping leak onto your driveway is the result, but that's still better than a big oil spot discovered the next morning lol). It can be corrected by cleaning the lip edge and slathering some additional RTV there. But best to avoid if possible.

Starter bumping? Never. I just crank with spark plugs out until I get an indication of oil pressure. If no gauge, or it's slow to respond or the sender turned out to be bad, I'll tap on the oil filter to find out when it gets oil in it. You can sometimes hear the starter speed slow down once the pump begins making pressure. Only when I know it's got oil pressure, will I throw in the plugs, give it some gas (fresh), and run it for less than a minute. Better to not have any coolant in it for this first start up because if the engine has something wrong with it, it's better to avoid the coolant mess if possible. Then shut it off and try to restart. If it starts back up, you're home free. The reason for this is often the second startup is more difficult due to the assembly lube oil burning off, which can artificially raise compression. Without it, the second start is more difficult and you'll need to give it time to break in. If it won't start a second time, gotta pull those plugs and take a look. Then you're on your own to get that puppy started again. Was it assembled right? Battery getting low? Grab another battery for jump? Roll start it (tow or push it)? That's risky of course. Whatever. I can't hold your hand. You'll get it figured out.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

1. the rotors can face any way, there is no way to get ti wrong, but it is a little easier if you have the front rotor on a TDC somewhere.

2. Aaron uses WAY too much lube/vaseline, it must smoke for hours after startup, plus it gets into the cooling system and doesn't do good things to rubber. i use regular motor oil on all the housing surfaces that see seals. the bearings, stat gears, and dowels get some redline assembly grease. for the rotor seals, i just use a dab of grease, its just there to make sure the seal doesn't fall out. vaseline is fine here too, i ran out in like 2003. for the water seals, i actually have been using lynn hannovers technique, and i use silicon at least on the inner one. the outer gets a few dabs just to hold it in. housing legs get preferably the Mazda grey silicon, although black is ok.

3. ReTed LOVES hylomar, i've never used it. this one time Ted was building engines in Czechoslovakia, and he wanted hylomar, so i bought a couple of tubes, and the only packaging was this nasty asian **** with stuck together pages. fast forward 6 months to SEMA, he walks in the hotel room tosses the same porno down, and says something about hylomar not being lube....

4. i don't super glue the apex seals, i like to live dangerously. it IS nicer when they are glued though.

5. once its together i rotate it by hand and make sure i'm getting 6 strong pulses.
5a. once it in the car, i crank it with the plugs out. i want to see the oil pressure gauge move, and without the plugs it'll spit out all the assembly goo. smoke on startup is ok, but when it smokes for 3 hours and the neighbors think the house is on fire, this just isn't necessary.

6. the exception to this lube thing would be if the engine is going to sit for a while, then leave it in there.

woodmv

iTrader: (8)

Jeff20B and j9fd3s, those are two EXCELLENT responses. I am putting these in my personal archive of info that I glean from this website. Thanks for sharing your experience!

NCross

iTrader: (18)

So RTV for the coolant seals, dowel O rings, rear O ring? Just enough to keep them in place?

Wheel bearing grease to hold the seals in the rotors?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you really just need something that will burn and is sticky, so vaseline, hylomar, axle grease, hair gel will all work.

i just use enough of whatever to keep it in place, so mine is a dab on a dowel pin o ring (if anything), and a few dabs around the outer water seal (the inner gets a skin coat of silicon though). i like a dab on the triangle bit of the apex seal, but i live dangerously and don't glue it

more won't really hurt anything, it just makes a bigger mess/more smoke

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

O-rings go in dry, the way I do it. I once lubed them with oil and one of the dowel pin o-rings fell out. Ever seen the leak of death on an old 12A? This had that at the very beginning. Now I install them dry. They stay in place better this way.

Experiment on the best way to hold coolant seals in place. Again anything oil based will make them grow and they can get crushed. I use grease because it's sticky, not that wet (with a low actual suspension oil content) and doesn't make them grow within the time it takes to stack the engine.

You might need to give a good even stretch on the black coolant seals, but don't go overboard. They tend to be a little short right out of the package, but the orange ones are usually right.

The rear o-ring goes in dry. I like to use a little RTV on the mating surface because after 10 to 20 years, the o-ring leaks a bit. Also if a set of RX-8 gears go in, they have no o-ring groove in the gear itself. Gotta use RTV on them, but some use hylomar (ew gross). I wouldn't.

mustanghammer

iTrader: (3)

Awesome thread and right on time for me - I have a rebuild in progress.

Regarding the tension bolts, do you guys put anything on the threads or are they installed dry? If you lube them, do the torque specs need to be adjusted or can they be followed?

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

The first two rebuilds I put vasoline on the threads and on the rear iron to lube where tension bolt sealing washers go. Big mistake. The vasoline had a tendency to bind then let go. Getting proper torque was very difficult.

The better choice is to use simple engine oil. I lube the threads in the front iron with a q-tip dipped in oil (not a lot, but enough to get in the threads). The same q-tip is used to lube the rear iron for the washers (flipped around to the clean side if it got dirty). This actually follows what the FSM says to use (oil). Then I torque them from 25 to 30 foot pounds depending on the year (usually 27 to 30). It's so much more accurate than using vasoline.

cliffnote: the FSM says to use oil

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

this is what i do...

mustanghammer

iTrader: (3)

Thank you both!

BezRx7

Information overload! Wow thanks guys. Have some rebuild DVDs but hearing your experiences adds so much more depth Thanks.


(This should prob be archived at some point)

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the shop manual, is actually pretty complete too, and then of course its actually a really simple engine. there are no valves, no valve adjustments, no cam timing, no timing chain tensioners, no valve covers, no connecting rods, one carburetor, no ignition points, it has a throttle cable, and no linkage....

BezRx7

Yup, I actually have the 82 & 85 original mazda factory service manuals, the Hayes 79-85 shop manual and a few books like HP Books Street Rotary all in hard copy. Countless digital and online resources. But this thread is. Erg useful for rotary newbs like me

NCross

iTrader: (18)

In my hastey excitement of ordering the seal kits i forgot two things. Corner seal plugs and fd corner seal springs. It shouldnt be a problem if i run no plugs and reuse the wire springs? Springs seem in check and function smoothly.

Also i mixed my control ring springs up! I know theyre directional and are supposed to catch the slot so they dont float around during engine cycles. How can i tell which is supposed go be white dot or blue dot on used springs?

NCross

iTrader: (18)

NCross

iTrader: (18)

NCross

iTrader: (18)

NCross

iTrader: (18)

It went together smoothly! There was one hairy moment where the apex corner triangles popped up when I thumped the center iron too hard onto the dowels, but luckily I was able to pull the iron back up before it touched and put everything back into place.

The end play has not been measured with a dial yet, but it feels right. 6 very strong compression poofs. No dislodged corner seals etc in the intake ports! I was unable to torque the stationary gear bolts to spec due to my 12mm 1/2" drive socket not fitting the bolts for some reason. My torque wrench is 1/2" drive and I cant find my 3/8" adapter. It is on my to do list before I install the engine though before anyone mentions something.

If you see a step where my work is questionable, please let me know. This is my first time rebuilding. I ended up using Ultra Blck RTV for the coolant seals, dowel O rings, and rear stationary O ring. I used a very sparing amount of Vaseline for the hard seals, and a thin film of Vaseline on the oil control rings. I used Mobil one 15w40 I had in the trunk of my Mercedes for lube. I plan on using a tiny dab of Loctite Red on the stationary bolts and oil pump bolts. The same RTV will be use in unison with the new front cover and oil pan gaskets, OMP gasket, and oil sump tube gasket.

I do have a slight concern over the flywheel and front counter weight. My original engine is the stock 1980 engine. The donor engine was a 79 engine. I used the R5 irons from the 80 stock engine, rotating assembly from the 79, end play assembly/counter weight/flywheel from the 80, housings from the 79. The rotors and counter weights have slightly different stamps. Cause for concern? Front weight are both "B" weights, but on has one dimple, and the other has two. Flywheel from the 80 was cleaner is why I used it.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

it is nice when you can use a factory assembly, but since all the 79-80 rotating parts are the same part numbers it'll be fine.

the weight stamp thing was done by batch, so a B rotor from 1979 and a B rotor from ?? (Mazda had 12A rotors until 2007, or later) aren't necessarily going to weigh the same anyways.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Don't use red locktite on anything. Where did you read that? They have a lock washer for a reason. The factory doesn't use red locktite. Neither do I . Why do you think you need it? Just curious about your thought process.

Otherwise congrats. I'd have done several other things different. But it's together now. Let's hope that R5 runs great!