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Brake still mushy on SA, suggestion to make better?

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Old 08-20-19, 09:03 PM
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Brake still mushy on SA, suggestion to make better?

Recently purchased a 1980 SA RX7, just replaced master cylinder and brake lines to make brakes firmer (and safer). Well brakes have better feel but still have longer travel than the brakes on my FB. Both RX7s have drum brake rears. Really want to make the SA brakes feel like my FB brakes; any recommendations?
Old 08-20-19, 09:38 PM
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Rear brake adjustment is critical to pedal travel and feel on drum brake cars. SA rear brake adjustment a little more finicky than FB,adjusted correctly you can have a good brake pedal.
Inspect your rear brakes especially the wheel cylinders to see if seized or leaking and if all appears ok,adjust brakes correctly and drive again. Certain you have all air out of system,what's you're bleeding procedure? Possible front brake calipers may need attention adding to low pedal issue,do the recommended things 1st and rule them out,post your results here. I'll look in on your thread for progress and give you some direction on how to proceed.

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Old 08-21-19, 02:21 PM
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I know e-brake is still not complete right, have to full engage before it engages rear drum; need to work on that adjustment. Will check wheel cylinders again for leaks but none was noticed when going thru system. Same for conditions of the fronts. Did not know if converting any FB brake components over to SA would improve brake feel.
Old 08-23-19, 09:16 AM
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you check the adjustment on the brake pedal to booster?
Old 08-23-19, 09:53 AM
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That dimension would not have changed with replacement of master cylinder.
Easy enough to check though,as long as brake pedal has a small amount of free play before actually moving booster pushrod.
Old 08-23-19, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GSLSEforme
That dimension would not have changed with replacement of master cylinder.
Easy enough to check though,as long as brake pedal has a small amount of free play before actually moving booster pushrod.

you said you bought it, never know who changed what. and it would efinitely effect free play. not that easy to adjust though, but shouldn't be too bad if you just had M/C off. it would effect the amount of brake boost directly effecting your brake responsiveness.
Old 08-23-19, 11:21 AM
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Having owned a SA22-80LS and adjusted those rear drum brakes MANY times, I've been spoiled by FB brakes; so don't expect too much. The SA's have a very touchy adjuster mechanism at the bottom of the drum brake dust shield facing inward toward the pumpkin. When adjust *perfectly*, they provide a nice, tight brake feel, but will quickly wear out of adjustment. If you changed the brake shoes recently, know that going from very little friction material to suddenly gobs of friction material will feel like spongy brakes, even if they're adjusted perfectly - because there's so much more pad material to compress, break-in, and out-gas under load. Almost worn-out shoes have always felt better and sharper to me, but run the risk of scoring the drums...

As you mentioned that your Parking Brake must be engaged almost fully before you can feel the rear shoes engage the drums, it's my belief that your drums need to be adjusted. The Parking Brake cables merely pull a lever arm inside the drum which then exerts pressure against the shoes. If the shoes aren't adjusted properly, those levers won't be able to exert pressure properly. Here's the method (*skip past, if you already know this...);

1) Jack up the rear end (*use Jack Stands!) - you just need to get both rear wheels off the ground and enough room to work, because you'll be laying under there.
2) Transmission in Neutral - spin the tires, watch the miracle of differential! Listen for any scraping from either side during rotation; if it's completely silent, it's probably because your Brake Shoes have worn and aren't contacting the drum anywhere.
3) Grab 17mm box end and 12mm box end wrenches - the 17mm will be used to hold the Adjustment Lock, while the 12mm will be used to adjust the shoe position. There are TWO adjusters for each Drum, one for the front shoe and one for the rear shoe. BOTH must be in proper adjustment to get good braking performance. Work on one until it's perfect, then work on the other.
4) Loosen the 17mm adjustment lock just slightly, while holding the 12mm square end bolt in position. That 12mm square end is what keeps the shoes where you want them. You don't want the 17mm adjustment lock nut to be excessively loose when you're adjusting, as it will allow the positioning bolt to wobble, complicating your adjustments when you lock it down.
5) Think of the 12mm square end bolt as a cam - as you turn it slightly (*within about 30deg arc), it will move the Brake Shoe closer to the drum or further from the drum. As you rotate the 12mm positioning bolt, use your other hand to spin the wheel in the forward direction of travel. You want to adjust until you hear the Brake Shoe drag on the drum - JUST BARELY - and then back it off ever-so-slightly. This ensures that you have minimal distance between when you apply brake pressure, and the Brake Shoe contacts the drum, applying your brakes.
6) Keep adjusting and testing until that Brake Shoe is perfectly adjusted. It's important NOT TO MOVE the 12mm square positioning wrench while you tighten the 17mm lock nut. If you let them turn together, you just screwed it up and will have to start over. This is critical. Don't overtighten the 17mm lock nut - just enough to keep it snug, then move on to the other Brake Shoe adjuster...
7) Do the other side, same method.Lower the car off the Jack Stands, and apply the parking brake. It should be firm and engage with about 2-3" of parking brake lever throw.

Test Drive;
If you've adjusted everything properly, and the parking brake feels good, take the care for a quick test drive. Lower both DS and PS windows so you can hear any brake scraping, and smell any brake material burning. Don't go too far, just around the block, because if you over-tightened the Brake Shoes on any of the 4 adjusters, that Shoe will expand under heat and potentially lock up that wheel. You're listening for scraping sounds, smelling for burning friction material, and feeling for brake tightness.

If it feels like the brakes are dragging, you have one or more adjuster which is too tight. Jack up the rear again, and quickly give the rear wheels a spin. You'll notice the one which is dragging because there will be noticeably more friction on that side. Feel the brake dust cover to see if it's the front or the back adjuster, and then back that one off just slightly.

In order to maintain good pedal feel on an SA22, expect to adjust the rear Brake Shoes about every 10-12k miles of city driving. You can go longer, but the pedal will feel mushy near the end, and your Parking Brake lever will have to pull further before they engage - just like you're describing right now. Good luck,
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Old 08-23-19, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDuck
Having owned a SA22-80LS and adjusted those rear drum brakes MANY times, I've been spoiled by FB brakes; so don't expect too much. The SA's have a very touchy adjuster mechanism at the bottom of the drum brake dust shield facing inward toward the pumpkin. When adjust *perfectly*, they provide a nice, tight brake feel, but will quickly wear out of adjustment. If you changed the brake shoes recently, know that going from very little friction material to suddenly gobs of friction material will feel like spongy brakes, even if they're adjusted perfectly - because there's so much more pad material to compress, break-in, and out-gas under load. Almost worn-out shoes have always felt better and sharper to me, but run the risk of scoring the drums...

As you mentioned that your Parking Brake must be engaged almost fully before you can feel the rear shoes engage the drums, it's my belief that your drums need to be adjusted. The Parking Brake cables merely pull a lever arm inside the drum which then exerts pressure against the shoes. If the shoes aren't adjusted properly, those levers won't be able to exert pressure properly. Here's the method (*skip past, if you already know this...);

1) Jack up the rear end (*use Jack Stands!) - you just need to get both rear wheels off the ground and enough room to work, because you'll be laying under there.
2) Transmission in Neutral - spin the tires, watch the miracle of differential! Listen for any scraping from either side during rotation; if it's completely silent, it's probably because your Brake Shoes have worn and aren't contacting the drum anywhere.
3) Grab 17mm box end and 12mm box end wrenches - the 17mm will be used to hold the Adjustment Lock, while the 12mm will be used to adjust the shoe position. There are TWO adjusters for each Drum, one for the front shoe and one for the rear shoe. BOTH must be in proper adjustment to get good braking performance. Work on one until it's perfect, then work on the other.
4) Loosen the 17mm adjustment lock just slightly, while holding the 12mm square end bolt in position. That 12mm square end is what keeps the shoes where you want them. You don't want the 17mm adjustment lock nut to be excessively loose when you're adjusting, as it will allow the positioning bolt to wobble, complicating your adjustments when you lock it down.
5) Think of the 12mm square end bolt as a cam - as you turn it slightly (*within about 30deg arc), it will move the Brake Shoe closer to the drum or further from the drum. As you rotate the 12mm positioning bolt, use your other hand to spin the wheel in the forward direction of travel. You want to adjust until you hear the Brake Shoe drag on the drum - JUST BARELY - and then back it off ever-so-slightly. This ensures that you have minimal distance between when you apply brake pressure, and the Brake Shoe contacts the drum, applying your brakes.
6) Keep adjusting and testing until that Brake Shoe is perfectly adjusted. It's important NOT TO MOVE the 12mm square positioning wrench while you tighten the 17mm lock nut. If you let them turn together, you just screwed it up and will have to start over. This is critical. Don't overtighten the 17mm lock nut - just enough to keep it snug, then move on to the other Brake Shoe adjuster...
7) Do the other side, same method.Lower the car off the Jack Stands, and apply the parking brake. It should be firm and engage with about 2-3" of parking brake lever throw.

Test Drive;
If you've adjusted everything properly, and the parking brake feels good, take the care for a quick test drive. Lower both DS and PS windows so you can hear any brake scraping, and smell any brake material burning. Don't go too far, just around the block, because if you over-tightened the Brake Shoes on any of the 4 adjusters, that Shoe will expand under heat and potentially lock up that wheel. You're listening for scraping sounds, smelling for burning friction material, and feeling for brake tightness.

If it feels like the brakes are dragging, you have one or more adjuster which is too tight. Jack up the rear again, and quickly give the rear wheels a spin. You'll notice the one which is dragging because there will be noticeably more friction on that side. Feel the brake dust cover to see if it's the front or the back adjuster, and then back that one off just slightly.

In order to maintain good pedal feel on an SA22, expect to adjust the rear Brake Shoes about every 10-12k miles of city driving. You can go longer, but the pedal will feel mushy near the end, and your Parking Brake lever will have to pull further before they engage - just like you're describing right now. Good luck,
Awesome post! I just got an SA and this will be invaluable info!
Old 08-28-19, 01:24 AM
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Not trying to hijack your thread, but Longduck, the adjusters you mention seem to be rusty-frozen in my SA. Can these be removed, perhaps soaked in rust remover to loosen them up?
Old 08-28-19, 07:00 AM
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vinegar and water 4/1 water/vinnegar-or a lil more vinegar and let it soak a couple days will clean rust like a dream
Old 08-28-19, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ATC529R
vinegar and water 4/1 water/vinnegar-or a lil more vinegar and let it soak a couple days will clean rust like a dream
I’ll give that a try. If I can get these removed that’ll be good to soak rusty parts in I bet
Old 08-28-19, 09:18 AM
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Yeah, they should be greased, but only lightly.

Given their location low on the drum, they're rife for developing rust that seizes either the locking nuts or the bolt, or the cam surface inside the hole. Clean those up and regrease so they don't corrode again and you should be good for awhile. Let us know how it works out,
Old 08-28-19, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDuck
Given their location low on the drum, they're rife for developing rust that seizes either the locking nuts or the bolt, or the cam surface inside the hole. Clean those up and regrease so they don't corrode again and you should be good for awhile. Let us know how it works out,
Yep they’re rusted tight. Sprayed Kroil on last few days, I’ll wrench on it in a day or two
Old 08-28-19, 04:55 PM
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Heat is your friend...
Old 09-09-19, 09:18 PM
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[QUOTE=ATC529R;12367534]vinegar and water 4/1 water/vinnegar-or a lil more vinegar and let it soak a couple days will clean rust like a dream[/QUOTE

I soaked for over a week in vinegar, Kroil, and deep creep. Then torch. 2 adjusters still snapped. Any idea where I might get these?
Old 09-10-19, 04:35 AM
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[QUOTE=mwpayne;12370085]
Originally Posted by ATC529R
vinegar and water 4/1 water/vinnegar-or a lil more vinegar and let it soak a couple days will clean rust like a dream[/QUOTE

I soaked for over a week in vinegar, Kroil, and deep creep. Then torch. 2 adjusters still snapped. Any idea where I might get these?

My attic. Send me a pm. I have all the rear drum stuff from my rear end. 1980. Will send whatever you want, just send me a check for shipping and send my your addy. I’ll probably go to ups on weekend or Monday as I have a couple Amazon things 2 return.

Last edited by ATC529R; 09-10-19 at 04:38 AM.
Old 09-10-19, 07:43 AM
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tell me if those bottom bolts are what you are referencing. I was wrong, still on the rear end still on the back of my work bench covered in stuff. but they're in good shape as you can see.
Old 09-10-19, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ATC529R




tell me if those bottom bolts are what you are referencing. I was wrong, still on the rear end still on the back of my work bench covered in stuff. but they're in good shape as you can see.

This is what I need
Old 09-10-19, 09:18 AM
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Sorry double post
Old 09-11-19, 08:51 AM
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Waffles - hmmm good

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This is not uncommon. I had to replace mine on my 80 SA for the same reason. Too much salt and rust from DD in Pittsburgh back in the 80s. Make sure to grease them up a bit when you get the "new" ones and stay out of the salt and water. That should fix you up. SA brakes are very, very sensitive to the rear brakes being out of adjustment. They also tend to blow out the wheel cylinders as well. Those are cheap and I replace them as needed.
Old 09-11-19, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by t_g_farrell
This is not uncommon. I had to replace mine on my 80 SA for the same reason. Too much salt and rust from DD in Pittsburgh back in the 80s. Make sure to grease them up a bit when you get the "new" ones and stay out of the salt and water. That should fix you up. SA brakes are very, very sensitive to the rear brakes being out of adjustment. They also tend to blow out the wheel cylinders as well. Those are cheap and I replace them as needed.
Thanks, I have new cylinders, pads, springs. Once I get the adjusters I’ll be good to go.
Old 09-13-19, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDuck
Having owned a SA22-80LS and adjusted those rear drum brakes MANY times, I've been spoiled by FB brakes; so don't expect too much. The SA's have a very touchy adjuster mechanism at the bottom of the drum brake dust shield facing inward toward the pumpkin. When adjust *perfectly*, they provide a nice, tight brake feel, but will quickly wear out of adjustment. If you changed the brake shoes recently, know that going from very little friction material to suddenly gobs of friction material will feel like spongy brakes, even if they're adjusted perfectly - because there's so much more pad material to compress, break-in, and out-gas under load. Almost worn-out shoes have always felt better and sharper to me, but run the risk of scoring the drums...

As you mentioned that your Parking Brake must be engaged almost fully before you can feel the rear shoes engage the drums, it's my belief that your drums need to be adjusted. The Parking Brake cables merely pull a lever arm inside the drum which then exerts pressure against the shoes. If the shoes aren't adjusted properly, those levers won't be able to exert pressure properly. Here's the method (*skip past, if you already know this...);

1) Jack up the rear end (*use Jack Stands!) - you just need to get both rear wheels off the ground and enough room to work, because you'll be laying under there.
2) Transmission in Neutral - spin the tires, watch the miracle of differential! Listen for any scraping from either side during rotation; if it's completely silent, it's probably because your Brake Shoes have worn and aren't contacting the drum anywhere.
3) Grab 17mm box end and 12mm box end wrenches - the 17mm will be used to hold the Adjustment Lock, while the 12mm will be used to adjust the shoe position. There are TWO adjusters for each Drum, one for the front shoe and one for the rear shoe. BOTH must be in proper adjustment to get good braking performance. Work on one until it's perfect, then work on the other.
4) Loosen the 17mm adjustment lock just slightly, while holding the 12mm square end bolt in position. That 12mm square end is what keeps the shoes where you want them. You don't want the 17mm adjustment lock nut to be excessively loose when you're adjusting, as it will allow the positioning bolt to wobble, complicating your adjustments when you lock it down.
5) Think of the 12mm square end bolt as a cam - as you turn it slightly (*within about 30deg arc), it will move the Brake Shoe closer to the drum or further from the drum. As you rotate the 12mm positioning bolt, use your other hand to spin the wheel in the forward direction of travel. You want to adjust until you hear the Brake Shoe drag on the drum - JUST BARELY - and then back it off ever-so-slightly. This ensures that you have minimal distance between when you apply brake pressure, and the Brake Shoe contacts the drum, applying your brakes.
6) Keep adjusting and testing until that Brake Shoe is perfectly adjusted. It's important NOT TO MOVE the 12mm square positioning wrench while you tighten the 17mm lock nut. If you let them turn together, you just screwed it up and will have to start over. This is critical. Don't overtighten the 17mm lock nut - just enough to keep it snug, then move on to the other Brake Shoe adjuster...
7) Do the other side, same method.Lower the car off the Jack Stands, and apply the parking brake. It should be firm and engage with about 2-3" of parking brake lever throw.

Test Drive;
If you've adjusted everything properly, and the parking brake feels good, take the care for a quick test drive. Lower both DS and PS windows so you can hear any brake scraping, and smell any brake material burning. Don't go too far, just around the block, because if you over-tightened the Brake Shoes on any of the 4 adjusters, that Shoe will expand under heat and potentially lock up that wheel. You're listening for scraping sounds, smelling for burning friction material, and feeling for brake tightness.

If it feels like the brakes are dragging, you have one or more adjuster which is too tight. Jack up the rear again, and quickly give the rear wheels a spin. You'll notice the one which is dragging because there will be noticeably more friction on that side. Feel the brake dust cover to see if it's the front or the back adjuster, and then back that one off just slightly.

In order to maintain good pedal feel on an SA22, expect to adjust the rear Brake Shoes about every 10-12k miles of city driving. You can go longer, but the pedal will feel mushy near the end, and your Parking Brake lever will have to pull further before they engage - just like you're describing right now. Good luck,
Excellent information did like that in my SA!!!
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