RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

I just read in a magazine about Holleys bolt on throttle bodies...Has anyone seen these? Theyre like $2000 but they come with a fuel/spark computer thats tunable and stuff, but the best part is that they just bolt on to any 4bbl "square flange" intake manifold...Hmmm sounds like my car...They just look like a high-tech carb, only smaller. They even have changable injectors and stuff. So I was thinking that I could go EFI for like $2000 on a 12A, and possibly help my chances for going turbo on a 12A with EFI...What do you think? Could it work?

~T.J.

PS - I attached a pic, and heres a link, check it out...

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C950/C950.html

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Unless you are looking to make MAD Power (500+hp) out of a 12A (Why, I dunno) - keep the 2K, and do a blow through Turbo setup on the 12A.

Besides, 12A's and Carbs are like "Peas and Carrots"

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

Ok, how do I go blow through? How much will all that cost? I mean, what is blow through, or suck through. Im sure it has to do with how the system works, but which is which? Why cant this help along the way? I'll probably end up going 13BT eventaully, but Im still addicted to my little 12A . Heres my guess though, suck through, air and fuel has already been mixed and is being "sucked through" the turbo...And blow through means that youre only compressing the air before it hits your fuel and gets mixed. If thats right, then why couldnt I do a blow through and just use this beast with it?

~T.J.

PS - I dont plan on doing any of this ANY time soon, this is all just for informational purposes .

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Blow Through Cycle for Pressurized Air:

Air Enters Compressor side of Turbo to
Intercooler to
Carburator in a pressurized (sealed) box
into Engine
Out Exhaust, into Turbo (Turbine side) spinning Turbo
Then out the down pipe.
Repeat.




Draw Through Cycle for Pressurized Air:

Air enters regular carb
Goes through the Compressor side of the Turbo
Goes Out the Turbo
into the Engine
Into the Turbine side, then out the downpipe.

BTW, many superchargers are similar to the Draw-Through design.


How Stuff Works - TURBOCHARGERS

REVHED

Keep in mind that you'll need an EFI fuel pump, fuel lines and surge tank so it's going to cost more than 2 grand. Rip off IMO.

Instead go to this site and check out their rotary throttle bodies. These 50 or 55mm throttle bodies bolt straight onto a Weber IDA manifold and only cost about $650 AUD. Add to that a Microtech fuel computer for about $800 AUD, an IDA manifold, a couple 12A turbo injectors, all the other bits and pieces and you have a far better setup than that Holley system for about half the price.

This is what I'll eventually be using after I go bridge-port in the near future.

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

HEY! Howstuffworks.com!! Thats where I started to read about turbos and then got distracted (18 year old hottie in bikini wanted to go swimming ). Anyway, youre saying I could do a blow through with a carbbie? I need the EFI pump to compensate for the more fuel needed though right? And what is this "surge tank" Ive heard so much about? Is this like an equivilent to a BOV, only in a different form? I like this whole "boost" idea . Must...go...faster...than...Honda...

~T.J.

Edit - Figured out what the surge tank was for...The whole fuel thing, its like a little gas resivor .

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

Ok, so give me a list here, what all do I need? Do I still need a BOV, or wastegate with this? I assume I do...

1. Turbo
2. Intercooler
3. Throttle Body
4. Fuel Pump
5. Regulator
6. Surge Tank
7. Fuel Only Computer (I plan on MSD for ignition)
8. Duct Working
9. Manifolds
10. BOV?
11. Wastegate?

Im seriously considering this now...After I get my next engine, shes getting boosted...Probably even ported too .

~T.J.

PS - Maybe I'll just throw in a 13BT from a Turbo II or something, that almost is looking easier...

peejay

The holley systems are garbage. You can get a car to "run" on them but your tuning options are VERY limited. Imagine trying to tune a Haltech using three *****, one for idle mix, one fore power mix, and one for accelerator pump shot.

You can do a lot better for less, and that INCLUDES tearing your engine down and rebuilding it with a GSL-SE center plate so you can use factory-style injectors

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Nobody said it was great. But it will Run, and run hard.
It's not just EFI.

So what does he do for the intake manifold? a 13B one will not work. Would he have to custom make one and and put Fuel Injector bungs on it? (read $$$)

A Carb setup is definately a compromise, but it is cheap by comparison, and they can be tuned to daily driver reliability. I have a friend with a '90 TII, and after blowing 3 engines (ended up being a bad ECU), he went with a blow through Holley, and that's been 3 years now. He uses it every day, and he runs low 13's on that heavy car.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

No, you only need the EFI pump if you are going with an EFI Turbo system.

I just put comments next to your list.

1. Turbo - Off a 13BT
2. Intercooler - Almost any will do. Conquest, NPR, etc
3. Throttle Body - NO, use the Holley Carb.
4. Fuel Pump - Upgraded - Malpassi, walboro, bosch, holley, - almost any.
5. Regulator - Malpassi RRFPR
6. Surge Tank - Not Really - it's an Aussie thing.
7. Fuel Only Computer (I plan on MSD for ignition) -
Nope, but an MSD 6BTM has some degree of Retard)
8. Duct Working - for the intercooler.
9. Manifolds - Exhaust from the 13BT, a Bonnet for the carb.
10. BOV? - Almost Any
11. Wastegate? - Built in to the 13BT Turbo (internal)
[/B][/QUOTE]

If you don't like the Holley, you can always do a Weber Blow-Through, as it has more precise tuning abilities.

BTW, Not that I would use them, But, check out MazdaRacing.com for ideas.

Maybe. Get a TII engine, a Haltech F10(Fuel Only), a distributor, and you're 90% of the way done.

peejay

Hello? GSL-SE center plate. There are your injector bungs.

For a throttle body, you could put a junkyard throttle body on the current 12A manifold with an easily-fabricated adapter.

Or if you're good at fabbing stuff, turn the Nikki into a throttle body. Either you can make an adapter to mount an air cleaner onto the Nikki's throttle baseplate (saw this done with a Holley baseplate, tooked really trick) or you could just remove the choke shaft, bore out the venturis to throttle-bore size, and it even gets to look like stock. That part that needs the fabbing skill is figuring out how to mount a potentiometer-type TPS to the "Nikki"...

REVHED

Um no, it's a "proper fuel system" thing.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

That is a Lot of work (including taking his engine apart and back together) for two injector bungs.

If you DID go that route, you could still use a carb blow through system, and use the two injector bungs for an AIC (Additional Injector Controller) for better fuel control under boost. BTW, this is how it was done in the late 80's around here in S. FL, and with the high-end Cartech systems like David Lane's. to have more than just two injectors.

Oh well. Everybody has different opinions on the "proper" setup, so it is really up to the individual tastes.

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

That was my thinking. Its almost "plug and play". Just a little of "this and that". But, when Im done with a 12AT, I could say I built it myself, and didnt just drop a different engine in my car . And its funny that you mentioned the same thing I planed on doing. The T-II engine, the Haltech F10 (9?), and I would be close already. But then I still need some fab work done, I have to get the engine to fit in my car (change front plates and oil pan?), and then some duct work and exhaust work...I dont know, I just know a little about turbos (learned from my cousins 3rd gen), and I know I want to go faster than a damn 2.0 SI thats running around town with a 95 Vtec engine in it...Bastard tricked me . Talk about a sleeper...

~T.J.

RotorMotorDriver

iTrader: (1)

So? What are you telling me?

~T.J.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

When you run a carb-blow through setup, you will likely have to run the stock distributor tack-welded so it won't advance the timing like on the N/A engine at higher RPMs.

Turbo engines usually retard the timing as boost goes up. A Tack welded distributor will not retard your timing the way it should, so your car will likely run sluggish off boost, since it will only be "tuned" for boost.

MSD came out with a new box, that will also retard your timing a few degrees to run boost safer, and it will be a better (more responsive) drive both on and off of boost.

An alternative is to get the distributor from a 12A turbo, as it had diaphrams to work boost and retard together.
However, those are hard to get, and how many degrees of retard they actually offer is unknown to me.

peejay

I don't consider it to be "a lot of work". The engines practically fall out of a 1st-gen they're so easy to remove, and disassembly is a snap once you know the trick to removing the flywheel.

A properly tuned carb will not NEED additional fueling. You can tune the carb so the proper fuel mixture comes 100% from the carb itself. Plus, it'd be a pain to have two different fuel systems, although most of the blowthrough guys run EFI pumps and bypass-type regulators, so you could have the one fuel pump and split it to the carb regulator and the EFI regulator, if you felt like trying to tune two different fuel systems to try to work together properly. (I certainly wouldn't)