autolite spark plug damage?
07-14-04, 09:33 PM
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autolite spark plug damage?
I've heard from someone (can't recall who??) that the autolite spark plugs will take a chunk out of the apex seals. Is that for every autolite plug made for the RX-7, is there like different generations of plugs. Plus it seems like I remember looking closely at the tip of the plug and I thought that it wouldn't damage it, it doesn't hook all the way around. If it's true that the plugs are going to damage the engine how long would it take to really noticeably damage the engine. My carb is down for the count so the engine hasn't been turned much at all. I plan on getting NGK's after the carb is fixed.
Thnx
Thnx
07-15-04, 03:13 AM
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meh
they usually are just fine
mine was due to a bad set
but that fact that they made it past QA is enough to make me not ever use em again
2000$ in damage isnt worth saving 10$ every spark plug change
they usually are just fine
mine was due to a bad set
but that fact that they made it past QA is enough to make me not ever use em again
2000$ in damage isnt worth saving 10$ every spark plug change
07-15-04, 03:22 AM
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I've got a rotor housing and rotor on the wall in my garage destroyed from an Autolite plug, not sure which type plug. Came from a parts car
I'll never use Autolites, NGK's 4 life.
I'll never use Autolites, NGK's 4 life.
07-15-04, 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by Max7
I've got a rotor housing and rotor on the wall in my garage destroyed from an Autolite plug, not sure which type plug. Came from a parts car
I'll never use Autolites, NGK's 4 life.
I've got a rotor housing and rotor on the wall in my garage destroyed from an Autolite plug, not sure which type plug. Came from a parts car
I'll never use Autolites, NGK's 4 life.
damn shitty plugs
07-15-04, 07:05 AM
#6
I read your email
My car came with Autolites installed and they were all gauld up in the housing. The L1 plug was so bad that I had to install a helicoil. Nope, no Autolites for me. Never.
I now always use anti-seize when installing plugs in any of my cars.
I now always use anti-seize when installing plugs in any of my cars.
07-15-04, 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by inittab
My car came with Autolites installed and they were all gauld up in the housing. The L1 plug was so bad that I had to install a helicoil. Nope, no Autolites for me. Never.
I now always use anti-seize when installing plugs in any of my cars.
My car came with Autolites installed and they were all gauld up in the housing. The L1 plug was so bad that I had to install a helicoil. Nope, no Autolites for me. Never.
I now always use anti-seize when installing plugs in any of my cars.
How is this the plugs fault? Seems to me that would be poor maint.
As for the Autolites "Ripping your seal", Don't know 'bout the guy from the state of Ms., but I would think that if it does it would be due installing the WRONG size plug.
I have been using the 2526 in mine for along time and have absolutly NO problems at all. The fact that there is no difference in performance from NGK vs Autolite, is another reason I run them. I am sure that I am going to get flamed over this, but, untill I see dyno proof in the difference I will never buy that NGK outperforms any other plug.
Plugs are common sense, if you take a plug out of a piston motor and install one that is to damn long what happens? You got it, gets the **** slapped out it and then you wind up with a valve job to do. So how is a rotary going to be different?
As for the guy in Ms who says the plug got past QA, well, I am sure that every manufacturer in the world has one get out a month, at least. You just don't hear about it. Don't blame you though I wouldn't run them either. However it doesn't mean that ALL Autolite plugs are bad. The way that YOU say it is that they are ALL bad. I am not knocking your ability, but when I pull a plug I generally put the other one up to it and match them by eye anways just to be sure.
There is an old saying," get the RIGHT plug for the job". Take it any way you like.
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07-15-04, 12:20 PM
#8
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Well, there are a couple of anecdotes here having to do with other than 'Manufacturer Recommended' spark plugs for rotary engines. I have always held to the safe side and used the NGK-BR8EQ14 plugs that Mazda specifically lists for my car - primarily because I believe they knew what they were doing when they designed the car, and worked with NGK to design an appropriate plug.
For those that use other plug manufacturer offerings, Racing Beat sells a special wrench to circumvent the 'ridge' that Mazda added to later rotary engine designs which prevented you from using the wrong kind of plug based on an incorrect shank length. The ridge kept you from being able to tighten down the incorrect plug - but RB helped to get past that. They made their name in racing, so I'll assume they knew what they wanted out of it.
The point to this is that the housings themselves have 2 plug holes per housing, and one of the plug holes is merely a small pinhole and the other is much more open. In the case where apex seals were damaged, the plug electrode obviously broke off and went into the engine, which should NEVER happen to a sparkplug. This would damage any internal combustion engine. This could have been caused by excessive heat applied, the wrong temperature range, poor cooling system function, or any number of other factors that would lead to a damaged spark plug breaking off an electrode.
When you look at the NGK's, they have 4 electrodes - designed to provide maximum spark gap and as the path of least resistance for the spark gets burned away, the plug then fires through the next path of least resistance. This helps to keep plug life near normal - you are firing these plugs 3 times for each rotor revolution, vs. every other time in a piston engine. Four electrodes also ensure that your plugs will function acceptably well even if they get fouled with oil (injected in a rotary) or gasoline (common with hot-start).
If you're buying cheaper plugs to save money, it would appear to me that the risks of doing so (cheaper metallurgy, cheaper components, cheaper quality control, whatever...) is going to cause problems in the long run. This is also why I don't buy cheap gasoline.
Compared to the value of the vehicle and my time to keep it up and running, $20 for plugs every year is a very small investment. YMMV, literally,
For those that use other plug manufacturer offerings, Racing Beat sells a special wrench to circumvent the 'ridge' that Mazda added to later rotary engine designs which prevented you from using the wrong kind of plug based on an incorrect shank length. The ridge kept you from being able to tighten down the incorrect plug - but RB helped to get past that. They made their name in racing, so I'll assume they knew what they wanted out of it.
The point to this is that the housings themselves have 2 plug holes per housing, and one of the plug holes is merely a small pinhole and the other is much more open. In the case where apex seals were damaged, the plug electrode obviously broke off and went into the engine, which should NEVER happen to a sparkplug. This would damage any internal combustion engine. This could have been caused by excessive heat applied, the wrong temperature range, poor cooling system function, or any number of other factors that would lead to a damaged spark plug breaking off an electrode.
When you look at the NGK's, they have 4 electrodes - designed to provide maximum spark gap and as the path of least resistance for the spark gets burned away, the plug then fires through the next path of least resistance. This helps to keep plug life near normal - you are firing these plugs 3 times for each rotor revolution, vs. every other time in a piston engine. Four electrodes also ensure that your plugs will function acceptably well even if they get fouled with oil (injected in a rotary) or gasoline (common with hot-start).
If you're buying cheaper plugs to save money, it would appear to me that the risks of doing so (cheaper metallurgy, cheaper components, cheaper quality control, whatever...) is going to cause problems in the long run. This is also why I don't buy cheap gasoline.
Compared to the value of the vehicle and my time to keep it up and running, $20 for plugs every year is a very small investment. YMMV, literally,
Last edited by LongDuck; 07-15-04 at 12:23 PM.
07-15-04, 01:12 PM
#11
As I recall, the damage wasn't necessarily from the plug's prong taking out a chunk, but rather it could also have been from the plug's improper detonation blowing them out.
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
07-15-04, 01:19 PM
#12
As for my next set of plugs, I'll get BUR7EQ for leading and BR8EQ-14 for trailing because leading is direct fire (DLIDFIS) and trailing is stock (through the cap and rotor). I figured I'd get plugs the Mazda and NGK engineers designed for each ignition system. I've already tried it on two engines and it seems to work very well.
07-15-04, 01:26 PM
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I did not dispute the mans claim that it was due to a BAD plug. I was mearly making that observation and stating that I have not seen any proof to the performance difference. As for the gentelman who posted the dyno sheet.....yea,....ok.
To make the point more clear, Mazda trix runs Autolite in their race cars, and I have alot of respect for them. As for Jeff, I have nothing but respect for you and hold you and long duck in GURU status. However, like I said, the right plug for the job. I am in no way bashing NGK plugs. However, I have seen no difference in the performance of Autolite.
However, the point that the man made about the plugs that came in his car being gauld in the housing I would attribute to poor maint. That was the main point I was making. That and the fact that ALL manufacturers have something bad slip into the field form time to time. I wuold not say that if you run Autolite that it will rip your engine apart.
The plug debate is like the oil debate, as well as the toilet paper debate. Everyone has thier own preference and reason for it.
I knew I would get toasted over this, that is why I have not said allot on this subject.
To make the point more clear, Mazda trix runs Autolite in their race cars, and I have alot of respect for them. As for Jeff, I have nothing but respect for you and hold you and long duck in GURU status. However, like I said, the right plug for the job. I am in no way bashing NGK plugs. However, I have seen no difference in the performance of Autolite.
However, the point that the man made about the plugs that came in his car being gauld in the housing I would attribute to poor maint. That was the main point I was making. That and the fact that ALL manufacturers have something bad slip into the field form time to time. I wuold not say that if you run Autolite that it will rip your engine apart.
The plug debate is like the oil debate, as well as the toilet paper debate. Everyone has thier own preference and reason for it.
I knew I would get toasted over this, that is why I have not said allot on this subject.
07-15-04, 01:27 PM
#14
In the past I had an SE, and lost an engine to to a spark plug. When I took it apart, I saw a piece of the porcelin inside the engine, destroying the housing.
The name of these spark plugs were - AUTOLITES.
I have never had a problem with NGK, and that IS what Mazda recommends.
However, I run Iridium B9EGV's in my engine. (It's actually a motorcycle spark plug). I run B10EGV's at the track.
The name of these spark plugs were - AUTOLITES.
I have never had a problem with NGK, and that IS what Mazda recommends.
However, I run Iridium B9EGV's in my engine. (It's actually a motorcycle spark plug). I run B10EGV's at the track.
07-15-04, 01:49 PM
#15
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I've always played it safe and have always put NGKs in my car. I've never heard of an NGK plug destroying an engine, but I sure have heard alot of bad **** about those Autolites. So I stick with what Mazda originally PUT in these cars when brand new and what they recommend. As far as putting this in another piston engine, hell no...I probably wouldn't. After all, these plugs were designed for the rotary, not a piston engine.
For the record, I should mention that I have had a bad NGK plug, the tip of the terminal broke off on me. So, yes...there are bad plugs that get sent out from time to time. However, this issues wouldn't cause my engine to go bad or destory, just give me shitty idle and poor acceleration as it was the leading plug on the rear rotor.
For the record, I should mention that I have had a bad NGK plug, the tip of the terminal broke off on me. So, yes...there are bad plugs that get sent out from time to time. However, this issues wouldn't cause my engine to go bad or destory, just give me shitty idle and poor acceleration as it was the leading plug on the rear rotor.
07-15-04, 02:13 PM
#16
I read your email
Originally posted by Brianhsval
However, the point that the man made about the plugs that came in his car being gauld in the housing I would attribute to poor maint. That was the main point I was making.
However, the point that the man made about the plugs that came in his car being gauld in the housing I would attribute to poor maint. That was the main point I was making.
I have also heard (warning hear/say!) that the metal used by Autolite reacts in nasty ways with the aluminum housings. Again, I'm not sure how true this is but I thought I'd throw it out for others who may know more about this.
07-15-04, 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Brianhsval
How is this the plugs fault? Seems to me that would be poor maint.
As for the Autolites "Ripping your seal", Don't know 'bout the guy from the state of Ms., but I would think that if it does it would be due installing the WRONG size plug.
I have been using the 2526 in mine for along time and have absolutly NO problems at all. The fact that there is no difference in performance from NGK vs Autolite, is another reason I run them. I am sure that I am going to get flamed over this, but, untill I see dyno proof in the difference I will never buy that NGK outperforms any other plug.
Plugs are common sense, if you take a plug out of a piston motor and install one that is to damn long what happens? You got it, gets the **** slapped out it and then you wind up with a valve job to do. So how is a rotary going to be different?
As for the guy in Ms who says the plug got past QA, well, I am sure that every manufacturer in the world has one get out a month, at least. You just don't hear about it. Don't blame you though I wouldn't run them either. However it doesn't mean that ALL Autolite plugs are bad. The way that YOU say it is that they are ALL bad. I am not knocking your ability, but when I pull a plug I generally put the other one up to it and match them by eye anways just to be sure.
There is an old saying," get the RIGHT plug for the job". Take it any way you like.
How is this the plugs fault? Seems to me that would be poor maint.
As for the Autolites "Ripping your seal", Don't know 'bout the guy from the state of Ms., but I would think that if it does it would be due installing the WRONG size plug.
I have been using the 2526 in mine for along time and have absolutly NO problems at all. The fact that there is no difference in performance from NGK vs Autolite, is another reason I run them. I am sure that I am going to get flamed over this, but, untill I see dyno proof in the difference I will never buy that NGK outperforms any other plug.
Plugs are common sense, if you take a plug out of a piston motor and install one that is to damn long what happens? You got it, gets the **** slapped out it and then you wind up with a valve job to do. So how is a rotary going to be different?
As for the guy in Ms who says the plug got past QA, well, I am sure that every manufacturer in the world has one get out a month, at least. You just don't hear about it. Don't blame you though I wouldn't run them either. However it doesn't mean that ALL Autolite plugs are bad. The way that YOU say it is that they are ALL bad. I am not knocking your ability, but when I pull a plug I generally put the other one up to it and match them by eye anways just to be sure.
There is an old saying," get the RIGHT plug for the job". Take it any way you like.
BTW it was the plug speced for 12a's that i used (2526)
Last edited by wwilliam54; 07-15-04 at 03:25 PM.
07-15-04, 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by vipernicus42
As I recall, the damage wasn't necessarily from the plug's prong taking out a chunk, but rather it could also have been from the plug's improper detonation blowing them out.
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
As I recall, the damage wasn't necessarily from the plug's prong taking out a chunk, but rather it could also have been from the plug's improper detonation blowing them out.
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
maybe so, but either way haveing a decently runninng 7 one day with ngk's and 6 killed apex seals, 2 rotors with huge chunks taken out of the apex seal grooves, 2 trased rotor housings, and 3 trashed side plates with some cheap autop lites makes my mind up
NGK or nippon denso for my 12a from now on
Last edited by wwilliam54; 07-15-04 at 03:24 PM.
07-15-04, 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by LongDuck
Well, there are a couple of anecdotes here having to do with other than 'Manufacturer Recommended' spark plugs for rotary engines. I have always held to the safe side and used the NGK-BR8EQ14 plugs that Mazda specifically lists for my car - primarily because I believe they knew what they were doing when they designed the car, and worked with NGK to design an appropriate plug.
For those that use other plug manufacturer offerings, Racing Beat sells a special wrench to circumvent the 'ridge' that Mazda added to later rotary engine designs which prevented you from using the wrong kind of plug based on an incorrect shank length. The ridge kept you from being able to tighten down the incorrect plug - but RB helped to get past that. They made their name in racing, so I'll assume they knew what they wanted out of it.
The point to this is that the housings themselves have 2 plug holes per housing, and one of the plug holes is merely a small pinhole and the other is much more open. In the case where apex seals were damaged, the plug electrode obviously broke off and went into the engine, which should NEVER happen to a sparkplug. This would damage any internal combustion engine. This could have been caused by excessive heat applied, the wrong temperature range, poor cooling system function, or any number of other factors that would lead to a damaged spark plug breaking off an electrode.
When you look at the NGK's, they have 4 electrodes - designed to provide maximum spark gap and as the path of least resistance for the spark gets burned away, the plug then fires through the next path of least resistance. This helps to keep plug life near normal - you are firing these plugs 3 times for each rotor revolution, vs. every other time in a piston engine. Four electrodes also ensure that your plugs will function acceptably well even if they get fouled with oil (injected in a rotary) or gasoline (common with hot-start).
If you're buying cheaper plugs to save money, it would appear to me that the risks of doing so (cheaper metallurgy, cheaper components, cheaper quality control, whatever...) is going to cause problems in the long run. This is also why I don't buy cheap gasoline.
Compared to the value of the vehicle and my time to keep it up and running, $20 for plugs every year is a very small investment. YMMV, literally,
Well, there are a couple of anecdotes here having to do with other than 'Manufacturer Recommended' spark plugs for rotary engines. I have always held to the safe side and used the NGK-BR8EQ14 plugs that Mazda specifically lists for my car - primarily because I believe they knew what they were doing when they designed the car, and worked with NGK to design an appropriate plug.
For those that use other plug manufacturer offerings, Racing Beat sells a special wrench to circumvent the 'ridge' that Mazda added to later rotary engine designs which prevented you from using the wrong kind of plug based on an incorrect shank length. The ridge kept you from being able to tighten down the incorrect plug - but RB helped to get past that. They made their name in racing, so I'll assume they knew what they wanted out of it.
The point to this is that the housings themselves have 2 plug holes per housing, and one of the plug holes is merely a small pinhole and the other is much more open. In the case where apex seals were damaged, the plug electrode obviously broke off and went into the engine, which should NEVER happen to a sparkplug. This would damage any internal combustion engine. This could have been caused by excessive heat applied, the wrong temperature range, poor cooling system function, or any number of other factors that would lead to a damaged spark plug breaking off an electrode.
When you look at the NGK's, they have 4 electrodes - designed to provide maximum spark gap and as the path of least resistance for the spark gets burned away, the plug then fires through the next path of least resistance. This helps to keep plug life near normal - you are firing these plugs 3 times for each rotor revolution, vs. every other time in a piston engine. Four electrodes also ensure that your plugs will function acceptably well even if they get fouled with oil (injected in a rotary) or gasoline (common with hot-start).
If you're buying cheaper plugs to save money, it would appear to me that the risks of doing so (cheaper metallurgy, cheaper components, cheaper quality control, whatever...) is going to cause problems in the long run. This is also why I don't buy cheap gasoline.
Compared to the value of the vehicle and my time to keep it up and running, $20 for plugs every year is a very small investment. YMMV, literally,
Its the same old Penny wise dollar foolish thing.
That was very well put
07-16-04, 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by vipernicus42
As I recall, the damage wasn't necessarily from the plug's prong taking out a chunk, but rather it could also have been from the plug's improper detonation blowing them out.
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
As I recall, the damage wasn't necessarily from the plug's prong taking out a chunk, but rather it could also have been from the plug's improper detonation blowing them out.
I'm not sure... I just remember someone in wwilliam's thread suggesting that it could have been that.
Either way, you've gotta figure that 40$ for plugs, spread over the year or two that you'll use them amounts to $3.33/month (for one year). that's 11 cents per day. Hmm... is my car worth 11 cents per day? Is it worth $40/year?
Yes. Yes it most certainly is. BR8EQs or BR9EQs on a stockport for sure.
Jon
I would have to wonder?? How often do you change your plugs?
Matter of fact how often do the people here change plugs?
It has always been a rule of thumb for me to change plugs when I change oil. That is every 2000 - 2500 miles. I have been known to pull them at 1500 just because. Maint. schedule is important! I have never been one who believed the bull about synthetic oils either, nor the 1000,000 mile spark plug. I have had all my cars, since the first 65 mustang I owned, on a schedule exactly like this. Maybe that is why I never experienced certain problems, I don't know.
I know it may seem like a waste of plugs and oil to some to pull it out so soon, but then again, better to soon than to late. The man said $40 in 2 yrs on plugs. That is a set a year. I would have gone through 5 sets in that time.
07-18-04, 06:10 AM
#23
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Ok, before I get flamed again, I just installed BUR7EQ in the lead,( since it is direct fire, Jeff being at Guru status suggested it so what the hell I will try it), and BUR9EQ-14 in the trail for this experiment.
I installed the plugs crancked her up, and noticed I was going to have to make adj. These being made I proceeded to the track for some FUN runs. I noticed absolutly NO difference in time in the 1/8 mile! However, Jeff, it does seem to run smoother with the 7's in the lead. I have had NGK before and it didn't run quite this smooth.
To get back to the runs:
avg. time is 10.602. Not bad for what this car has been doing. Fastest pass was 10.587, which was the same as the Autolite plugs. I cannot see any difference in performance. If there is any it would be nominal at best.
I would like to say however that since the car DOES run smoother,( which I will attribute to direct fire and the BUR7EQ plugs), I just may run NGK a bit more.
By the way, the times are slow for the mods, but I do believe that is caused more by the ACV not working properly than anything else. That and the fact that I need a header.
I installed the plugs crancked her up, and noticed I was going to have to make adj. These being made I proceeded to the track for some FUN runs. I noticed absolutly NO difference in time in the 1/8 mile! However, Jeff, it does seem to run smoother with the 7's in the lead. I have had NGK before and it didn't run quite this smooth.
To get back to the runs:
avg. time is 10.602. Not bad for what this car has been doing. Fastest pass was 10.587, which was the same as the Autolite plugs. I cannot see any difference in performance. If there is any it would be nominal at best.
I would like to say however that since the car DOES run smoother,( which I will attribute to direct fire and the BUR7EQ plugs), I just may run NGK a bit more.
By the way, the times are slow for the mods, but I do believe that is caused more by the ACV not working properly than anything else. That and the fact that I need a header.
07-18-04, 01:32 PM
#24
Cool! I'm glad your engine smoothed out.
By the way, you typed out BUR9EQ-14 which, as far as I know, is not an actual plug designation. Did you use BR9EQ-14? I still haven't figured out which plug is better for trailing between BR8EQ-14 or BR9EQ-14 with BUR7EQ in leading. I assume BR8EQ-14 is correct because it's still running through the cap; only the leading has changed. The BR9EQ-14 is a cooler plug, so it might possibly foul easier. It sparks before the (180º) second leading spark, so there is a chance it could misfire.
My friend picked up an '83 GSL yesterday that has autolites in it! *retch, puke* It runs very, very rough. It also has a set of autolite wires. We'll go with NGK plugs and wires next week after we change the waterpump.
Man, seeing those autolites in the rotor housings made me feel sick and disturbed lol!
By the way, you typed out BUR9EQ-14 which, as far as I know, is not an actual plug designation. Did you use BR9EQ-14? I still haven't figured out which plug is better for trailing between BR8EQ-14 or BR9EQ-14 with BUR7EQ in leading. I assume BR8EQ-14 is correct because it's still running through the cap; only the leading has changed. The BR9EQ-14 is a cooler plug, so it might possibly foul easier. It sparks before the (180º) second leading spark, so there is a chance it could misfire.
My friend picked up an '83 GSL yesterday that has autolites in it! *retch, puke* It runs very, very rough. It also has a set of autolite wires. We'll go with NGK plugs and wires next week after we change the waterpump.
Man, seeing those autolites in the rotor housings made me feel sick and disturbed lol!