The question has been asked many times, but no one has yet to find the answer.

For once, my military training in mechanics has helped me out!! I found the MSDS for both products.

MMO contains:

Benzine
Mineral Spirits
Napthenic Hydrocarbons


ATF contains:

Paraffin
Oil Mist
Napthenic Hydrocarbons


Conclusion- ATF and MMO are nothing alike except they are red liquids and have Napthenic Hydrocarbons... whatever the heck those are. All I know, is that Paraffin = Wax, and I don't want that building up in my rotary. Everything in MMO is designed to burn, therefore it is good for an engine. End of story.


I hope this has ended some confusion.


.

 

I heard from my brothers, friends, uncles, stepsisters, best friends, mechanic that you are wrong.... j/k Good info though.

 

Thankyou for posting this information. It's no wonder people have said that ATF produces solids when burned in an engine. They also recommend that you should change your sparkplugs after an ATF 'treatment'. They also recommend against an ATF treatment if you have a catalytic convertor. Gee, I wonder why. I've never personally experienced any of this because I will never, ever put ATF into any of my engines while still in control of my faculties.

Here are two pics of a side by side experiment I did last year.

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/inde...=post&id=14275

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/inde...=post&id=14276

MMO seemed to clean the carbon from the apex seals better. I also put MMO in my 20B because its apex seals were all gummed up due to having plugs one heat range too cold for some reason (I blame the PO). The MMO seemed to float the carbon out of the exhaust ports (of course I cranked the engine around by hand a few times during its soak). It was really quite interesting to watch the carbon chunks floating out. Heh, ATF would have made a mess, and smelled bad to boot. No thanks. Oh, and another thing, the MMO didn't cause the engine to smoke even though it sat in it for a year.

 

I'm certainly glad I did the research... I've heard "don't do it", but never a "why"...

Now we all know


.

 

ATF had WAX in it??? Now I'll NEVER want to use ATF in a rotary (not like I ever was going to). I think this could just end the discussion about MMO and ATF. Its just too bad I can't get any MMO in Canada.

 

Hey, rotorypower, can you send mmo through the mail, couse if you can I'll send you a couple of bottles if you want.

 

Seriously, what the hell is your deal? Did somebody force you to use ATF in your engine? I, for one, still use ATF in my engines to break them free, but since I'm rebuilding (and ATF is plentiful around here) it's not a big deal.

Maybe you should learn from me and take a chill pill before posting here.

 

I believe he is posting this because many people want to break free an engine (or just clean it out) and are told that the "atf treatment is the only way to go". So just for the sake of information he put this out so that uninformed people can learn something. In addition to that if someone were to do the atf treatment and then start their engine they will be cloging up their exhuast.

 

Holy crap christaylor, do you realise what you just said? You just admited that you break your engines free with ATF because it's plentiful, and you like rebuilding them anyway. Is that the point you were trying to make? Because I can break my engines free by simply dropping a washer down the carb.

The moral here is that just because washers or ATF may be free or plentiful in your area, it's no excuse to break your engine just because it might need a rebuild.

 

Hey, a washer.....not a bad idea. I think I'm going to go all out and use atf THEN a washer. Then I'll do a rebuild.

 

Sweet! It's only bad if the washer damages your side plates. It happened to my friend and I got his dead engine and will probably rebuild it this winter.

 

if mineral spirits came in contact with the coolant seals or oil seals with wouldnt it **** it all up?

 

Mineral Spirits = Paint thinner... I use it as a solvent on all my car parts for degreasing and ****... It's fine. Just don't soak it into rubber o-rings and ****.

 

I actually use gas to degrease stuff in small batches. Youk now, like oil pumps and thrust bearings; the little things. I guess it's more like deoiling. Gas also causes some of the oil seals to swell.

 

Ok, people... if you're having to use MMO or thinking about using ATF, it's because your engine is already screwed or on its way... MMO is the thing to use to break stuff loose.

MMO is also very good to put in gas, cause it cleans out the fuel passageways. I don't know if I'd put it in my oil, except just before an oil change.

 

I think paint thinner is cheaper, plus it stays stable longer...

 

I think we can just avoid this on going argument by making sure that you don't ever have to break you engine free.

 

I don't think anyone should be freaking out about paraffin in ATF. Pennzoil and Quaker State and maybe other motor oils are paraffin based. Although I know most people here use Castrol, have you ever heard of somebody destroying their engine by using Pennzoil? I think they would have gone out of business by now...

 

Not to say that this isn't marketing b/s but this is from quaker state's website..

Myth #1

Paraffinic oils cause engine sludge.
Oils from paraffin-based crude are loaded with wax and create engine sludge.
Paraffin base stocks cause sludge.
"x" Brand of motor oil causes sludge, varnish and/or engine deposits.
“Paraffinic” motor oils cause wax-like deposits on the underside of the oil fill cap.

Fact
There are two basic types of crude oil, naphthenic and paraffinic. Most conventional engine lubricating oils today are made from paraffinic crude oil. Paraffinic crude oil is recognized for its ability to resist thinning and thickening with temperature, as well as its lubricating properties and resistance to oxidation (sludge forming tendencies). In the refining process, the paraffinic crude oil is broken down into many different products. One of the products is wax, and others are gasoline, kerosene, lubricating oils, asphalt, etc. Virtually every oil marketer uses paraffinic base stocks in blending its engine oil products.

Many people believe the term paraffinic to be synonymous with wax. Some have the misconception that paraffinic oils will coat the engine with a wax film that can result in engine deposits. This is not true. The confusion exists because paraffinic molecules can form wax crystals at low temperatures. In lubricating oils, this wax is removed in a refining process called dewaxing. Wax is a premium product obtained from crude oil, and in order to ensure that we produce the highest quality base stocks available, Quaker State® removes the maximum amount of wax possible during the refining process. The end result is a motor oil product formulated with premium lubricating base oil.

 

well ... i've never seen the point to using ATF in an engine ... even way back when i was more impressionable. i used to use a tablespoon of gear oil and paint thinner back in '94 and '95. to be honest, i was even skeptical about MMO (even though i still used it in my fuel) up until as recently as this summer. however after seeing what it did for my MR2, i am firm believer in it.

on the parrafin-issue ... i know that it didn't burn very cleanly, but it was used in the 60's in lamps for heat. my point is that it does burn and i'm sure that by the time you factor in the immense heat, unburned fuel, oil and anything else in the engine when it's shut down - there shouldn't be wax left in there unless you've done something like put it in your fuel.

 

ok, then where does the sludge come from? I know it can't be good to put paraffin in your engine.


There is a really good article on the Amsoil site that they cut and pasted from someone else who did some research. Pretty much, any additive like paraffin or teflon, etc is not good for your engine, and is actually bad for it.

 

could be from parrafin ... could be from motor oil ... could be from a whole host of possible things ...
just for the record ... i'm not advocating the use of ATF or parrafin or olive oil or anything other than oil and gasoline. i add MMO to my gas and i also use it to soak engine seals and springs whenever i'm going to reuse them for an engine build.
you don't have to convince me i was merely saying that paraffin burns - and based on what i've seen when it burns, i couldn't see how it would leave any more residue/sludge/whatever than oil. that's all. it was just a passing statement and trivial crap that i thought i'd share, not really a point to be made. maybe i should have been more clear ... sorry.

i'll check the Amsoil site though. knowing this might help me sell more of it ...

 

Just to clarify my earlier post.. Paraffin is not an additive. It is a byproduct of the oil refining process. Most oils that are refined, are paraffinic based.. Therefore, most oils on the shelf have some level of paraffin in them. It is the refinement process that determines the amount of paraffin removed.

 

What I'd like to know is why some people still hold to their belief in the ATF myth, even after all this? Some people.

 

I've got 10 bottles of MMO for sale. In Canada, $10 per. All 10 for $90. I'll be in Ottawa over Christmas.