Pele

iTrader: (28)

EDIS - Enhanced Distributorless Ignition System, used on Ford cars.

The main requirement is a 36-1 tooth wheel on the crank (Or a 72-2 tooth wheel on the cam/distributor drive.)

I'm trying to see how people have done this on a non-Ford engine...

My truck is a Mazda (B2600i, 2.6L I4) and if someone's adapted the Ford crank pulley to the rotary, perhaps it'll fit this boinger too.

Also, the only crank pulleys for EDIS Fords I've seen are serpentine belt. 1st and 2nd gen rotaries (and my truck) are all V-belt.

Not really 1st gen related, but if I see how it's done on a rotary, I can adapt the idea to my engine. Plus this is a pretty smart and helpful group of tinkerers, so I think some good ideas will be here.

mwatson184

TheGlassMan (3rd gen guy) has done something like that. It looks pretty interesting.

Marques

nevarmore

How many teeth are on the RX-7 distributor drive?? Or since I've not yet had the pleasure of exploring south of the cap on an RX-7 distributor, how is it driven??

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I wouldn't run EDIS on a rotary.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I'm sure renns will be along shortly to tell us all why EDIS is so great, but I'll tell you all right now why I don't like it.

It's a wasted spark setup for a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder. On a 4 cylinder, that means it fires pistons 1 and 4 at the same time, then 180° later, it fires 2 and 3 together. How does this translate to a rotary? Well, the way renns did it, his fires both plugs in the same housing at 0°, then both plugs in the other housing 180° later with four seperate coils. That means a) no split and b) no late leading spark 180° later that is so easy to get from DLIDFIS, 2GCDFIS, MSD etc.

Speaking of easy, EDIS requires you to mount a trigger wheel on the main drive pulley that has 36-1 teeth. It must be centered perfectly to avoid a balances issue etc. renns had his pulley machined. Then a VR sensor needs to be mounted the correct distance from the wheel.

Just a few more reasons are that, well, it is a FORD part (excuse me while I hurl), the spark duration is not adjustable so you're stuck with whatever the Ford engineers deamed acceptable for a piston engine. There is also a multispark feature which always throws up a red flag because we know the MSD's mutlisparks only benefit a rotary at low RPM before they drop to one very short duration spark at higher RPM (some have said it's 1500 while others have said it's 3k or 6k; I don't know the actual RPM) which is not so good in a rotary's long combustion chamber where the air fuel mixture is flowing by the spark plug at a much higher speed than in a piston engine.

Another thing about EDIS is it needs an ECU in order to not run in limp mode all the time, but I could be mistaken about that. I know the MegaSquirt works with EDIS, and several people are running it on their boingers with fine results. However for us rotary guys, it's not very practical. The amount of work required vs the end result is very difficult for me to justify. For example a MegaSquirted rotary is so much easier with a CAS and a 2nd gen leading ignitor and coil assembly, or at least that's been my experience (extrememly simple to trigger it from one of the LED circuits). Guess what? Recent advances in the MSnS-Extra code have allowed a way to feed both VR sensors from an unmodified CAS into the MS and it will soon output a trailing trigger and select signal. What's more, the leading will of course have those cool 0° and 180° sparks that I'm such a fan of, and a proper trailing split. If I was doing a 13B, I'd certainly do it this way. EDIS isn't even on the radar anymore. I think renns will probably be the one and only EDIS rotary user. We should remember though that at one point, EDIS was the only way to get trailing spark as well as leading to a rotary without piggybacking the original ECU for spark control in a MegaSquirted FC. Then again, renns has a 1st gen so uh... and all that work just for trailing ignition which only adds like 1.5HP... and the 50% loss of leading sparks per rev... and it's a bunch of ford parts! No thanks.

smnc

Just because I'm a brat...

You do of course realize that technically, EVERY Mazda part is a ford part now?

That said, you'll have to excuse me while I go take a VERY hot shower to try and wash the dirt off me....





... It's not coming off!!!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

You can rest assured that Ford didn't buy Mazda until recently, so 1st gens are immune. Also, if you buy any new parts, ford only owns like 33% of Mazda (or whatever the percentage is), so scrub real hard. It'll was off.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

Ummm Jeff20B... It's not going on a rotary. It's going on a G6 engine (2.6L I4) I was just wondering how to get the 36-1 wheel on a non-Ford, Mazda engine.

I already did the math about EDIS on the rotary means losing the trailing spark...

I was actually gonna ask how important is trailing? I've heard of 2nd gen guys who run high boost prevent pinging by removing the trailing plugs and putting in a bolt..

I was also putting together mods for the EDIS setup in my head to allow for the trailing spark, but it'd remove the 4 post coil pack in lieu of a single two post and two single posters or four single posters.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Oh, ok. I guess what I wrote can still be used by rotorheads thinking about getting a MegaSquirt.

Anyway, I think EDIS requires an ECU to keep it from entering limp mode. So if that's true, you're going to need an ECU. I'd recommend MegaSquirt and if you're going to get a MegaSquirt, you might as well skip EDIS and just use the ignition trigger sources from the MS itself, and some sort of crank angle sensor or the stock dizzy (locked mechanical advance). Other Mazda engines use a 24 tooth wheel, so a 24-1 could very easily be done (or if you're into trying new stuff, a 24+1 setup could be tried since the newest codes support it). No need to perfectly retrofit a 36-1 EDIS wheel to your main drive pulley, or have one machined and all that.

I actually thought more 3rd gen guys replaced the trailing plugs with the anti-det device, but yeah. Trailing is not 100% necessary for your rotary to run. Mike Robert has gone over 10k miles on a 2GCDFIS type of ignition (leading only) triggered from the MS, with no problems.

renns

Given I've spent hours babying you along on your MS project, do you not think perhaps a bit more respect is warranted. I'm not sure if there was any value in the rest of your post, as I've stopped right here. I have never said the EDIS is an ideal solution for the rotary, but I am happy with it in my installation. I am not sure why you find it so threatening...

In any case, Pele, the EDIS setup is pretty straight-forward to set up. You need to mount a 36-1 wheel, and a VR sensor. The wheel can be scavenged from a Ford, or laser-cut to your specifications for a paltry sum. I even heard of one guy using a bicycle sprocket! The EDIS module itself contains the VR conditioning circuitry, and two smart ignitors for the coils in one package. It will fire the plugs at a fixing advance (normally 10 degBTDC) in standalone mode. To control the timing, you must send an appropriate timing signal to the EDIS module, and it will then advance timing as requested. To provide ignition advance signals, there are a couple different controllers you could use. Here's one that might be of interest:

http://picasso.org/mjlj/

and some more background reading here:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/mjl/mjl_edis.html

The Megasquirt crowd has adopted this module due to it's rugged design, and easy adaption to custom control applications. It may not impress Jeff, but it has impressed many others of _at least_ equal knowledge in this field. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me directly at renns_99@yahoo.com, or post in the MSnEDIS forum at msefi.com.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

Right. I've done research. I was gonna use MegaJolt Lite JR... I can't use Megasquirt because this engine doesn't have a TPS... It's barn door MAF...

I just wanna try and make this truck a little more efficient, and at the same time tinker with it... I've got the insatiable urge to BUILD something.

I know a guy who runs an RX-7 with MegaSquirt and he claims 26-30 MPG... In a heavy *** FC...

I was originally gonna MS this engine, but I've gotta figure out how to fab in a TPS... Then there's all the Volumetric Efficiency math I've gotta do... So I thought I'd start at the Ignition system first, then work my way to the fuel...

Maybe I should pull the clogged catalytic converter first...

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

I don't like EDIS on a rotary for the reasons I stated above. I've been into upgrading ignition systems on older rotaries for a few years now and EDIS doesn't do enough for my taste. Of course I can only speak from an 'it worked for me' standpoint, just like you, and the type of spark control EDIS is capable of is actually inferior to stock FC ignition, so I can't in good conscience recommend it to others. Of course that's all that was available when you did yours, and I see you said that EDIS is not an ideal solution on a rotary, but 'it worked for you', so at least we're not on totally different pages here.

I've spent many hours trying to come up with ways to make 1st gen ignition parts get close to stock FC ignition performance, and the recommendations I give to others reflect this work. Now that the MegaSquirt is capable of running even a 20B's ignition (although it's leading only, but with 0/180 leading sparks@120°), I see no reason to not recommend it to others. I mean it worked for me, right? Sure it's only bench tested, but I'll know soon enough if it works in the real world after I finish a 13B rebuild in a couple days.

What irks me is when I see you come into threads where I've touted some of the latest releases of the firmware and described the results I've had with it and you tell me I shouldn't push the alpha codes onto others for various reasons. Is it bad for the MS community or something? I mean, it worked for me, right? Some of the features required to make my setup work are not included in the earlier codes, so it makes me look like a jackass when you do that. I don't see why it's any worse at generating questions that get routinely asked on the MS forum than any of the other MS info out there (well, rotary-specific anyway). At least the info I post is very up to date (hint hint ). Anyway, I don't see why telling others which code version I've had great results with is so wrong. Is it just in recommending it to others where I should adjust my technique? Do tell.

Yes, I needed a little hand holding at the beginning because I only knew how to deal with carbs and distributors. Kudos to you for your pioneering efforts. You've added greatly to the MS community, and I thank you for your help when I was a newbie. All I needed was a place to start since I had zero experience with anything EFI and there is a hefty learning curve involved. You seemed willing to help, so I directed most of my questions towards you. Man, looking back on it, I asked a whole lot of stupid questions, didn't I.

Pele, Do you want to do a Megasquirt? You don't need a TPS to get spark control; just an incoming RPM signal from either a 36-1 wheel, your stock wheel, or practically anything else under the sun with at least 4-1 teeth that repeats once per rev.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

I wanted to upgrade both the fuel control and ignition on this truck, as it's got a fairly simple EFI (Probably about as complex as GSL-SE or FC EFI), and electronic (Hall Effect) distributor type ignition with vacuum advance.

Being that both would require some form of fabrication (TPS mounting for Fuel Control, CAS mounting for Ignition) and fuel control would require more research (How big are my stock injectors?) and math (Volumetric Efficiency), I figured that Ignition should be where I should start and then get Fuel control later.

Now it seems that I gotta figure out how to do either. I'm not so great at figuring it out without having parts right in front of me... But because of the priciness of scrap yards around here, I can't just pick up an Escort crank pulley and try to see if it fits, then chuck it if it doesn't... That'd be like pitching $50 out the window.

renns

It's worked for you ON THE BENCH. Have you run an engine with it yet???
There is a formal process of release, which is determined by the code authors. To promote their alpha/beta code, intended for cautious use by experienced users, to the masses undermines their efforts, and has the potential to cause support nightmares. In many cases there are bugs present, which could (and has in the past) left someone sitting at the side of the road. It may seem out-of-date to promote proven solutions, but the MS community, and end user will end up thanking you.

Your enthusiasm for this sort of thing is wonderful. Your anti-Ford stance I find humourous, but hey, we've all got our biases. At least this one is out in the open now ;-) Now funnel that enthusiasm into getting that -squirted 20BGLC on the road.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Pele, I don't know if that Mazda trucking forum is still around because the last time I checked it, it was down. Then I lost the link. Ask Atkins, Dan. If it's still up, I'm sure the people there would know all the little but important details like injector size etc. By the way, I wasn't aware that Mazda used Hall sensors, but I'm only familiar with the rotary side of their vehicles so you'll need to count the wires coming out of the sensor to see if it's two or three. Two usually means a VR sensor and three usually means a Hall sensor, but there are exceptions. The dizzy could very easily be used to send an RPM signal to a MegaSquirt. Infact, the 13B that I'm building right now will eventually get a supercharger and I would very much like to control the spark with a MegaSquirt so it would have boost retard. I was going to start off with a carb, and since the intermediate plate is from a carbed engine, there aren't any injector holes like what a GSL-SE has. Besides, the intake ports are much larger this way. Yep, ignition only with a boost retard feature from either a locked dizzy or a modded CAS. Actually at that point, I'd want to experiment with the dual input feature of the latest code so I could use an unmodified CAS. Anyway, go check out the msefi forum because chances are somebody there has already done a B series pickup.

renns, I just need to mask the rotor housings of my supercharger-prepped 13B, paint them (I wouldn't normally paint them, but they're really ugly), and assemble it. Then I can either install it into my REPU or dive right into the MS project; depending on the weather. This SC engine project is pretty much the last thing lined up in front of the MS project at this point.

I finished bench testing earlier this week and dismantled my setup. It had 33 aligator clips running every which way. It's kinda nice that even with all that potential RFI, it still worked. Hearing those three spark plugs humming sounded like a real 20B. It sounded pretty cool! (there was distinct change in the uh 'note' whenever I'd disconnect one of the channels) I've got 022i6 loaded on the CPU and everything is set to what I think will be good enough to start the engine with. If the weather holds up, I'll be able to shoot some paint and get that 13B out of the way by the end of today or sometime tomorrow. Then it's MS time!

Tofuball

MS doesnt _need_ a TPS. You can use MAPdot and a proportioner/restrictor valve bought from an aquarium store