Fennix_sr

im plannin on building an all motor peripheral port street car, i realy wanna make around 350-400 horse but no turbo, now i also know it will be very loud and wouldnt pass emissions but i dont have to worry about that smog crap, at least not yet , i was just wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what needs to be done to the engine to make sure it will survive rev's up to 16 grand or higher, i did a search but well nothing answers my question like i would like it to be heh.

any thoughts would be great , but it you are gonna tell me dont do it for street, all i have to say is... i gotta have the sound of a peripheral port idling and people wondering what the hell it is that and i wanna take it to the quarter mile up island WOOOO!

Rotortuner

Um ya, not to totally slam you at all. But 16 grand and higher??? ya i dont think so. And 350-400. Better be FWHP and thats is not really achieviable. So far the highest HP numbers for PP 12a's are about 290-310 FWHP. The highest number i have ever heard of was an all aluminum block MFR 12a pp built by guru motorsports that turned 14k and made 330 or so FWHP and that was probably a $25k engine that will last about 3 races. The MFR housings make the most pwr, usually a bolt together 300 fwhp, the housings are almost $3k a set though. Most hommade 12a pp housings are good for the 275-285 fwhp range and are much cheaper. Unless you fork out the 2500 dollars for gurus 2 piece eccentric shaft and another 1500 for their gears, anything over 12k is completely out of the question. Remember that these engine can be pricy to build, especciely when you start to fork out money for a clutch and fly wheel that will stand up to 11k these are usually a 5.5 inch clutch and run in the 1500 dollar range. also needed is lightened and balanced rotors. up into the 1500 dollar range in machine and balance work alone not including the actual cost of parts. About another 10hp or so can be gained by using ceramic seals, but again about a 1000 bux. Just my 2 cents.

CJG

Rotortuner

Oh i forgot, youir goal could be pretty easiyl achieved with a little help from a bottle. build a conservative pp using steal seals pushing about 250fwhp and only rev it too 8500 then hit it with a 150 shot.

CJG

coldy13

I'm doing research right now about P-Ports and I'm going to start building mine soon. I'll be making everything myself. I have someone that is willing to send me a MFR p-port housing so I can just copy the port timing/angle from it and send it back to him.

What I want to know is, is it possible to put a bearing in the center housing to support the e-shaft using the stock e-shaft?

Also, can the carbon seals take nitrous? I know they are made for N/A and will not take any boost, but I'm not sure if that included nos or not.

Rotortuner

I have some MFR housings and the thing is that the exhaust port is in a different location than the stock ones and i dont think you can port the exhaust to obtain the same timing because of where the stock ones are. The MFR ones are just set up better but you can probably get to about 270 mabe 280 at tops fwhp or so on a hommade if you can get a really good exhaust etc.


As far as the bearing in the center, no not with a stock e shaft unless your ingenious machinest, but the gurus ones are 2 piece and use lock rings all are of a better matierial. kinda need to know your metalergy and strain hardening principals etc.

Carbon seals. I personaly have never used nitrous on them, RB says you cant really due it because they are very sensative to detonation. do you want to take a chance on a $4k engine? the ceramics can handle it though.

CJG

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Posts like these make me realize that some people have never truly heard how ******* loud a PP engine is. Much less while inside the car.

For a PP to make power, it has to be full open exhaust, (preferably megaphone) - (13B = 250-320 rwhp)
It has to be REALLY Loud (******* deafening, - really)
If you put mufflers on it, then you might as well have gone Street-port
It has to have a Custom aftermarket Intake ($$$$)
It has to have a Big Aftermarket carb. ($$$$)
It has to have custom housings made ($$$$)
It should have carbon seals, so you don't destroy the housings ($$$$)
It should have clearanced rotors and side plates, and
It has to idle at about 2500 RPM or more.

Obviously, this thing would not be streetable.
It's not the horrible milage,
It's not the exhaust fumes making you dizzy
It's not the total lack of power under 4000 RPM
It's the freaking Noise.

The noise is unbearable for short periods of time,
and under acelleration, it is horrible (but beautiful at a track).

Go Listen to a PP at wide open throttle first, get real world calculations on the cost of obtaining it, and then
consider it.

I consider a big bridge-port impractical for the street as it is, but you can get away with it.

A big street-port will get you the lopey idle your looking for. As stated above, a shot of giggle-juice will make the difference in power that you want.

A PP? Forget about it.

rotary emotions

**** you! PP is fully streetable, and lasts 100k miles!
Only thing is that won't be a race-one!
I've got a PP engine at home (very silent: it's on the floor...
No, I'll stop fooling around here.
Actually a PP doesn't have to be that loud, or expensive, or powerfull.
An old NSU engine was PP, made 115hp from 1.0l, and was fully street legal. It wouldn't pass current emmssion tests, but is still legal to drive here. They are not loud at all. Ok, this is not what we are looking for here, but I just wanted to add that PP doesn't automaticly include bad idling, noise, or anything else that makes the car no longer streetable. However, if you want 300+ hp... that's a whole other story!

Siraniko

iTrader: (13)

My sons new motor is a big street port and it lopes like a bridge-port using a 48 IDA. AND YES, I can tune but due to the size of the ports, it lopes hard. I started with a 65 idle jet and with a 75, it idles better. Im still breaking it in and got about 950 miles to go so I dont know the 1/4 mile time on this puppy. I would need to register the car

PP is not streetable? Its not advisable but If you have *****, then it can be done. I know several guys with daily driver PP and BP.

pp13bnos

iTrader: (1)

Carbon seals will take nitrous. I've ran a 50 shot on a streetport 13B, then a 150shot on my old 13B peripheral port. Bolth handled it fine.

However, I've read somewhere, that after a little while, (While on the bottle.) the carbon apex seals will start acting like glow plugs! So be carefull, and put a slightly larger fuel jet in the nitrous system.

CJ

Rotortuner

Ya i mean, i am not saying that the pp are completely unstreetable, It really depends on where you live and the local law enforcement. I drove mine on the street probably 8-12 times. got pulled over twice though. I ran it off the header once and the other times through a pretty long muffler. Noise was never the issue for getting pulled over though because here in washing in vehicles that are over 25 years old there really arent any regulations. i had it in my rx3 so it was old enough. I have a good sized half bridge port 13b in my REPU and i drive that every day and tow my 16' double axle car hauler with it and i think its completely streetable. But 300hp pp engines really arent that good for the street, noise and the driveability really do become a factor.

CJG

coldy13

Double post.

coldy13

Okay:

Exhaust will either be full custom with all straight through mufflers, or it will have a RB streetport header and center section with a custom straight through rear muffler. This will make it bearable, and since all mufflers are straight through it will not be robbing power.

Carb will either be a used weber 51ida, or a new 50dcoe, either one will be about $300-$400.

Intake manifold I can make myself easily.

Custom housings I can also make no problem with help from my dad. He is foreman at a very large machine shop and I have free access to the machines there.

I might use carbon seals, but I'll probably just make my own seals.

Clearancing and balancing the rotors, once again it's not a problem at all.

Building this engine will not cost me much $ at all, just time.


I agree that the biggest problem will be keeping the noise down, but I think that with 4 or 5 straight through mufflers the noise will not be that bad, and since they're straight through it will not be robbing much power.

wwilliam54

carbon seals most definalty
and keep a spare set, they wont last long
but your engine wont be hurt when they go

REVHED

The RB setup with custom rear muffler is the way to! My friend who has an injected 13Bpp recently changed to this setup and it works great. His old straight through system was 150dB lol and he actually gained power with the new system due to the better design. Plus it's quiet. He's making about 250rwhp on a Dyno Dynamics no less.

REVHED

I didn't know you were one to over-exaggerate things Direct?

See my other post about the noise. The pp's I've been in idle under 2000rpm and the torque curve is very flat.

You're right about most of the other stuff but. Still, i wouldn't mind having a pp on the street.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

My friends 13b PP idles @ 1800rpm.

My 12a J-Bridge idles @ 1800rpm.

You'll get better gas mileage and it won't kick and buck under 4000rpms if you turbocharge a big streetport. And similar peak horsepower and more torque.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Coldy,

If you already have a Turbo 12A, then what's the problem? Not fast enough for you?

Intercool that bitch and up the boost! It's so much fun
having Boost. PP just can't compete in the fun dept.

Also, PP idling at 1800 RPM, fine - what about when you accelerate - it gets LOUDER folks..

I just finished some high end tuning on my car at 17PSI.
I was scared shitless. Try 17PSI in 4 th Gear, pulling past 135 mph in the blink of an eye.

It was a wake-up call. Right now, the high boost settings are definately more than I can handle.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

What kind of power is your motor making directfreak? It sounds like quite the beast.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

I don't know.. It's very different at different boost levels.
I could tell you that my truck runs low 13's, and today it felt like a Yugo after driving the 7.

I might dyno it in Jan.. just for the hell of it.

coldy13

I'm just trying to give this guy some info on the p-port, I won't do mine for a long time. I just picked up a new engine(20k miles, perfect compression) and I'll be taking it apart to dowel pin it, street port it, and clearance and balance the rotors. Then I'll put it back together and get a weber carb instead of my nikki, and put on my intercooler and msd that are sitting in my garage. Then with the motor that's in my car now I'll rebuild it and p-port it and eventually get a different 7 to put it in, hopefully a SA.

Heath

iTrader: (11)

Where can you source a 51 ida for $300-$400? I have seen 48 ida's in that range but not the 51's.

coldy13

Used you should be able to get a 51ida for $400. But I can get a new weber 50dcoe for less than $400.

Rotortuner

You cant get a used 51 for 400 unless you really sit around for a year and score one or buy a POS one that needs a new throttle shaft and bearings for another 200. Most usable ones are in the 550-700 range.

CJG

Fennix_sr

lol, i never expected this many replies awsome, ive learned a **** load thanks folks, i realize how stupid i sound when i just make guesses on power, ive never been braught up around engines or anything im all self taught and im a 17 who thinks he knows a little about rotaries hehehe sory but realy Tthanks all you guys for the info, btw i still plan i doing the peripheral port 12a because i love 12a's and i love the longevity of a peripheral port engine compared to a bridge, i have learned alot from this site and i still keep learning, oh ya BTW the old beast ( my first rx-7) is is the garage with the heaters blastin gonna get that baby runnin again cant wait its been sleeping for far to long .... man my hands feel heavy... good bud

Fennix_sr

one big thing is i was plannin on it being horribly loud but i wanna be at a stop light and have people wondering what the hell it is, i wanted to go for a 51IDA downdraft straight pipe headers uncolected with each pipe exits in front of the rear wheels
ive heard a peripheral port 12A start befor and i fell in love with the sound of the starter turning and then the little 1.2L starts rumblin beautiful
obviously i plan to have much more parts that that engine internals (ill learn alot when i go visit the rotary guru i know, i wish i could list everything i need to do to the internals of the engine like strengthening them i just am not sure on how that is done but im gonna find out )